"Most" States "outlaw" .223 for hunting?

[Vince Cyr]

Been doing some research on .223 due to a recent purchase, and one of the things I'm finding is a lot of people claiming that "most" or "many" states outlaw it for hunting deer sized and larger game. Last I looked, something like 38 states allow it, and of the 13 remaining, some don't even allow any modern centerfire rifles at all. Definitely not the "many" that some people claim. And I have even seen people claim, contrary to any laws on the books, that their state has some arbitrary caliber "limit", usually whatever the person in question feels comfortable with, be it .24 or .30 caliber(I've actually seen people argue about the details of a supposed limit, when no such limit exits). Is this attitude common in the hunting community? That whatever they are comfortable with is the law, or that they just repeat things they hear without actually looking into them? I'm not knocking those who choose to hunt with larger cartridges, and I'm not knocking any fans of .22s(I grew up hearing my father and uncles extoll the virtues of them, admittedly illegal for deer when they used them. Not now though). I'm just wondering what it tells us about the hunting community as a whole.

 

[Hanzo581]

Virginia's rule

Rifles used for deer or bear must be .23 caliber or larger

I think people fall into the trap of assuming the laws they are held to must carry to all states around them, or the rampant spread of misinformation out there (thanks internet!).

 

[FL-NC]

In my experience state regs are generally written in simple to read English, at least as far as this subject- although I admit I have only hunted in about 6 states. FWIW, there is no minimum caliber by state law in NC to hunt deer. None. Yes, you can hunt them with a rimfire in NC. But back on track, I think some of the people you are mentioning are either quoting old info, repeating bad info they heard from wherever, or stating their own OPINION as fact. Whatever the case, it makes me wonder if they actually read and comprehend any of the other laws for their respective areas. And just to bring it up, the last 3 deer I harvested were with 223. 2 of them were DRT, 1 ran 50 yards and crashed. So the people who say its not enough gun, unethical, whatever can keep talking or posting. I'll read their posts while munching on delicious venison jerky or enjoying some backstrap and biscuits. From deer killed with 223.

 

[Choctaw]

I'm just wondering what it tells us about the hunting community as a whole.

Ever since Ogg decided to hunt mastodons with a smaller, sleeker spear tip, hunters have argued about what works best on game animals. As Hanzo said, we have the internet to thank for the endless arguments that always creep up whenever a caliber is at issue.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Laphroaig]

.223 is certainly legal for big game (including bear) hunting in PA.

However, we had a big hullabaloo this spring to legalize semi-auto rifles for big game hunting. It was finally voted down. One of the primary objections was that hunters would use their .223 chambered AR's, which are inadequate.

Go figure?

 

[Jason_W]

Laws are slow to catch up to new technology. 50 years ago it probably made sense to restrict .22 centerfires for deer. Most .22 cal bullets were either frangible cup and core bullets, or FMJ. I'm not sure if Nosler partitions in .22 cal were available back then.

Now, we have all copper bullets in vein of Barnes TSX, bonded jacket/core bullets, partitioned bullets, etc. Smaller bores are definitely more capable than ever. That doesn't mean there aren't limitations to them, but that's true of any bullet and at a certain point, we have to trust the hunter to know and work within the limits of his or her chosen weapon.What's better, the hunter armed with a .223 that they practice with weekly and have studies the ins and outs of their chosen load's ballistic capabilities, or the guy who dusts of his .300 win mag once a year, fires half a box to make sure the scope is still on and calls it good?

But, the wheel turns slowly in the world of hunting. There's a lot of blind traditionalism at work. Traditions can be great as long as they're mitigated with science and reason. In some states, the .44-40 is a legal deer round, but the .22-250 is not. Makes no sense to me.

 

[.308 Norma]

Virginia's rule



I think people fall into the trap of assuming the laws they are held to must carry to all states around them, or the rampant spread of misinformation out there (thanks internet!).

Hanzo581, there isn't a "double like" or "love" place to click, or I'd have clicked it.

Been doing some research on .223 due to a recent purchase, and one of the things I'm finding is a lot of people claiming that "most" or "many" states outlaw it for hunting deer sized and larger game.

Where are you doing your "research," Vince Cyr? On the internet?
Welcome to THR by the way.

 

[Vince Cyr]

Ever since Ogg decided to hunt mastodons with a smaller, sleeker spear tip, hunters have argued about what works best on game animals. As Hanzo said, we have the internet to thank for the endless arguments that always creep up whenever a caliber is at issue.

Welcome to the forum.

Don't mind the debate, lots of opinions, just guess all the people assuming things when anybody who can read should know better gets to me. Guess it's something of a pet peeve of mine.

I was gonna say something smart about the "welcome" messages, but I just realized I had to make a new account for my tablet, which I use most of the time now, cause I couldn't log in with my old account for some reason. I've actually been on this site for a while now, but thanks anyway. My old account was "vincyr", and for the life of me, I can't figure out why I can't log in on this device

 

[swampcrawler]

At least around here, "hunters" are a far cry from experts of the craft. In fact very, very few men in a hunting camp are even remotely familiar with ballistics. I've been told that a .308 is marginal, that a 45-70 is has too much diameter to penetrate, anything with a poly tip is a varmint bullet, so on and so forth.

There are also a ton of folks who spend their lives hunting the same piece of privately owned land and almost never encounter a Warden. These guys usually just figure that the regulations that their pawpaw taught them are still valid.

Unlike us poor public land hunters who have to keep very close track of the minute changes year to year.

In my state, a .25 ACP is legal for deer. Go figure.

 

[armoredman]

AZ says "centerfire rifle" and leaves it at that in the regs I last looked at. We also have no magazine limits anymore for semi-auto rifles, either, so I can hunt deer with my BREN 805 and a standard capacity magazine. I haven't done it yet, but it's legal, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[jmr40]

The last count that I had was 4 states outlawed 22 caliber center fire rifles that also allowed standard traditional center fire rifles. Just a few years ago that number was closer to 10, but many states have changed their laws recently to allow them. Many states are muzzle loader or shotgun only, Also there are several states that used to be muzzle loader or shotgun only that are now allowing center fire rifles with severe restrictions. Mostly handgun or straight walled cartridges with limited range. They ban 22 caliber center fire, but also most other center fire cartridges.

All of these laws were on the books before 223 or 22-250 were even invented and were designed to outlaw much less powerful rounds such as 22 Hornet. A 223 or 22-250 loaded with bullets designed for big game is certainly more than adequate for deer size game. Start shooting varmint loads of FMJ through them and you'll have problems. Start shooting varmint loads or FMJ through a 30-06 and you'll have problems too.

 

[stoky]

I'm averse to laws prohibiting the use of .22s, but I'd hope hunters would have more respect for larger game. There are a plethora of adequate cartridges available.
It seems like folks using ARs for big game hunting don't have a clue about the true meaning of the Second Amendment.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Been doing some research on .223 due to a recent purchase, and one of the things I'm finding is a lot of people claiming that "most" or "many" states outlaw it for hunting deer sized and larger game. Last I looked, something like 38 states allow it, and of the 13 remaining, some don't even allow any modern centerfire rifles at all. Definitely not the "many" that some people claim. And I have even seen people claim, contrary to any laws on the books, that their state has some arbitrary caliber "limit", usually whatever the person in question feels comfortable with, be it .24 or .30 caliber(I've actually seen people argue about the details of a supposed limit, when no such limit exits). Is this attitude common in the hunting community? That whatever they are comfortable with is the law, or that they just repeat things they hear without actually looking into them? I'm not knocking those who choose to hunt with larger cartridges, and I'm not knocking any fans of .22s(I grew up hearing my father and uncles extoll the virtues of them, admittedly illegal for deer when they used them. Not now though). I'm just wondering what it tells us about the hunting community as a whole.

Vince,

There are some states that have minimum caliber requirement above the various CF .22's. Colorado being one of them.

I think the issue here is in the definition of "a lot of people". The legal minimum caliber argument is easily squashed with the simple task of looking it up in the local hunting regs. There might be a few ignorant people on the net who make these outrageous claims but I'm pretty sure you won't find "a lot of people" who are actually hunting who don't have at least a basic idea of the local hunting regulations.

Now you will find a lot of people who don't feel that the .223 is adequate for big game hunting but that is a completely different argument than what you've mentioned above.

 

[FL-NC]

I'm averse to laws prohibiting the use of .22s, but I'd hope hunters would have more respect for larger game. There are a plethora of adequate cartridges available.
It seems like folks using ARs for big game hunting don't have a clue about the true meaning of the Second Amendment.

And what is "larger game"? I see whitetails and hogs killed clean on a regular basis with the 223. I've also seen them wounded and not recovered by hunters who placed bad shots in them with "better" rounds like 270, 30-06, etc. Archery hunters tend to lose more animals than gun hunters, in my experience. And I totally don't understand your 2nd amendment statement.

 

[armoredman]

I would have to agree - I'm confused with the 2A tie-in here?

 

[JackSprat]

I have killed a good bit of whitetail with 222,and 223,but they have been pretty close shots,and I have used proper bullets..Even though a 223 can hit a target at a pretty good distance does not mean it's got enough energy left at the same range..As long as a hunter knows his ability,and understands his rifle,and uses propper ammo at proper distance,and has the restraint to pass on the shots that he's not sure on,then the 223 can get the job done pretty well,.I would say close to as many deer are wounded by the 223 and doomed to slow deaths from people either using FMJ,or varmit ammo,as are wounded by inproper shot placement..

 

[stoky]

I'm confused with AR hunting.
...........maybe yotes, or prarie dogs or feral cats
We don't have (wild) hogs here abouts. I know some guys that go South to hunt 'em. The fellow with the AR uses a .375 Socom upper.
Is that why they're used for hunting? It seems like as good an excuse as any to amass a bewildering verity of uppers and lowers and such.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

May be repeating myself from other threads, but the German 5.6mm RWS rifle cartridge (60gr @ 3700 fps, 74gr @ 3380 fps) has been used successfully by deer hunters in Germany, Britain and Ireland for decades. I expect to see more ".223 Remington" caliber sporters chambered and rifled for heavier bullets than 55gr for medium game hunting, moving newer rifles in .223 closer to the evolving 5.56mm NATO standards, rifled and chambered for heavier bullets suitable for medium size game, closer to European .22 centerfire deer cartridges.

Years ago, .22 centerfire was the varmint rifle, loaded with 40gr to 55gr bullets designed for prairie dog, crow and groundhog: pest control only, and not designed for humane harvesting of larger game animals. Ammo has changed, rifles have changed. The game laws of most states have changed, too.

 

[stoky]

It sounds real euro trendy. Reckon US cops will be scoping out the 9mm Kurz soon.
Meanwhile, West of the Mississippi, game is larger and the ranges are longer.

 

[swampcrawler]

May be repeating myself from other threads, but the German 5.6mm RWS rifle cartridge (60gr @ 3700 fps, 74gr @ 3380 fps) has been used successfully by deer hunters in Germany, Britain and Ireland for decades. I expect to see more ".223 Remington" caliber sporters chambered and rifled for heavier bullets than 55gr for medium game hunting, moving newer rifles in .223 closer to the evolving 5.56mm NATO standards, rifled and chambered for heavier bullets suitable for medium size game, closer to European .22 centerfire deer cartridges.

Years ago, .22 centerfire was the varmint rifle, loaded with 40gr to 55gr bullets designed for prairie dog, crow and groundhog: pest control only, and not designed for humane harvesting of larger game animals. Ammo has changed, rifles have changed. The game laws of most states have changed, too.

Aren't most of the European folks hunting Roe deer? 30-70 lbs? I think a high velocity .22 would be ideal for that size game.

 

[Jason_W]

It sounds real euro trendy. Reckon US cops will be scoping out the 9mm Kurz soon.
Meanwhile, West of the Mississippi, game is larger and the ranges are longer.

Which is where matching the cartridge to the game and conditions come in.

I don't think anyone would suggest a .223 as a long range pronghorn round or for elk. But there are places where ranges are close and whitetail are small.

Even here in California I was surprised to find that the deer are tiny on both the coast and the foothills and that the woods are still thick in a lot of places. I can't afford to hunt them so it's a moot point, but one of the hotter .22 centerfires would be just fine for the little guys in the fotthills and on the coast. If I won the lottery and was able to hunt Mule deer or Elk in the Sierra's, I would choose something that packs more punch at longer range.

If I lived in one of those places where deer breed like rodents, are tiny, and it's legal to hunt over bait piles and salt lick, I'd probably get myself a .22 hornet and shoot only at bow ranges from a good blind.

 

[H&Hhunter]

I've got absolutely zero reason to ever hunt big game with a .223 on purpose. I've got way better tools for that job. If you want use a .223 for big game and you use it within its capabilities and it's legal, knock yourself out! I fully understand that line of thinking too.

 

[entropy]

.223 is certainly legal for big game (including bear) hunting in PA.

However, we had a big hullabaloo this spring to legalize semi-auto rifles for big game hunting. It was finally voted down. One of the primary objections was that hunters would use their .223 chambered AR's, which are inadequate.

Go figure?

Don't tell the four deer my son shot with his Sportical. (In WI) Not to mention the 11 he shot with his .223 Axis. Is the Axis that much more adequate?

I grew up in a state where it was illegal to use .223 for big game, but somewhere along the line it became legal there. (MN) I don't know whether WI allowed .223 in the rifle zone before the whole state went rifle, but I know it became legal in the prior shotgun zones when it switched, so I started using my coyote gun for deer. Ironically, I have yet to shoot a deer with a .223; I did get a coyote during deer season two years ago.

 

[Mike .45]

WA state requires centerfire rifles to be at least .24 which isn't really a big deal to me as I have better options than a AR anyway.

I would like to have the option even though I would likely never exercise that option.

IMO it seems a little light but I never have to take a really long shot at a deer anyway so I dont think that a clean, humane kill with it would be a problem given proper bullet choice and placement. I will be sticking with the .270 for deer and 300 win mag for elk.

 

[DeepSouth]

In my experience that thinking is common among basically all people. They believe what they want then gather information that confirms it (even if it's not true) then they repeat it like it's the gospel.

It has nothing to do with the hunting community, you can find it football... just ask an Alabama fan how many national championships they have then ask for the sources
Or ask an old Mopar hotrod'r how much extra hoarse power a hemi makes, then ask for sources. Or in the context of laws go read some threads in the legal forum about the castle doctrine or stand your ground. Or look at politics, I doubt further comment is needed their.

People these day seem to live in a confirmation biased delusion of reality, we probably all do it to some extent but there are definitely some that take it to a whole new level.


Edit: For what it's worth in AL it has to be centerfire expanding ammunition, at least that's what the game warden told me.