"Most" States "outlaw" .223 for hunting?

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stoky said:
I'm confused with AR hunting. :neener:
...........maybe yotes, or prarie dogs or feral cats
We don't have (wild) hogs here abouts. I know some guys that go South to hunt 'em. The fellow with the AR uses a .375 Socom upper. :cool:
Is that why they're used for hunting? It seems like as good an excuse as any to amass a bewildering verity of uppers and lowers and such.
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Could be, any excuse in a storm, eh? :D I don't own an AR, so I can't do that, but I do understand they can get uppers in almost every caliber - do they make a single shot for 155mm Howitzer yet?
Our deer down here are small and fast, but I will most likely just be using .223/5.56mm for coyote. Can't stand those vermin.
 
VThillman said:
22 rimfire has always been the 1st choice in my neck of the woods for professional poachers and 'subsistence' hunters. One behind the ear. But that's a different ballgame.
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Around here, most of the old-time jackers preferred the centerfire .22s (legal now, but we used to be shotgun only in these parts). Noise wasn't a factor, cause people around here are used to hearing shots, and they just plain don't care. Mostly, they liked the "varmint" calibers for their accuracy. Easy to take a less than 100 yard shot on a deer and put it where it needs to be with a rifle expected to take woodchucks at 3-400 yards.
 
No restrictions in Texas and Arkansas where I hunt. Arkansas just changed recently, I believe. I like larger calibers for deer but I would use a .223 on Javelina any day.
 
I know .223 is legal for white tail in MN and has been only for a few years. Prior it was .243 and up. I've tossed around the idea of buying an AR in .223 or another caliber just for deer. Long as the bullet is suitable for deer (noticed Cabela's now sells 64gr Winchester .223 ammo that's suitable for deer in stores now), and you do your part, there should be no reason why .223 can't be used for deer hunting. Other than that I know we have a 5 shot capacity limit here. Outside of online and maybe a couple stores, finding a 5 shot magazine for an AR is a pain. 10, 20, 30 all day long.

Sure there's more capable rounds that are older, but modern ammo is getting way better, where you don't have to use a .30-30 or anything like that to hunt. Hunt with whatever caliber you want, long as you are confident that your shot will be ethical and will take the game down with minimal suffering. The one thing I despise about my state is I have to go 2-3 hours North of where I live just to use rifle, it's mostly shotgun only down here in the cities.
 
In Texas it's legal. Only limit is no rimfire. Texas is all that matters to me. The rest of America can do what it wants. :D

But, I still am not totally into relying on my new M4 for shooting deer. I will try hogs first...if they every come back around. If I lose a hog, I ain't real worried about it. And, if my load will take hogs cleanly, it'll take deer.

I'm old enough to remember when the .243 Winchester was a new round and nothing under .25 caliber was allowed on deer in Texas. THAT had to be amended some years later and most hunters ignored that with the .243, anyway. My grandpa was in to smaller calibers, but had a .257 Roberts which I ended up with eventually, that has REALLY done the job over the years.

What I really appreciate is that Texas now allows crossbows during bow season. I have an eye dominance problem and can't shoot a bow, but shoot long guns lefty, so I'm really into the crossbow and never understood why the crossbow was illegal in the first place. It has no more range than a compound and if you're going to limit technology, force bow hunters to hunt with a stick bow, no sights. But, Texas finally wised up on that.

In Texas, the .22-250 has been quite popular as a deer round. It's at least got more thump than a .223, though. But, getting realistic, in most of this state, the deer do good to hit 150 pounds on the hoof. It really don't take a cannon. I just hesitate to use a marginal caliber in deference to the game. I'd hate to lose a deer, hasn't happened yet, though I had a couple of times it NEARLY did. And, it ain't like I don't have proper weapons in proper calibers for deer hunting. I just got this M4 because I thought Hillary was going to win in November. Now I have the gun, but I still think I'll keep hunting deer with my .308.
 
stoky said:
It sounds real euro trendy. Reckon US cops will be scoping out the 9mm Kurz soon.
Meanwhile, West of the Mississippi, game is larger and the ranges are longer.
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and you still haven't clarified your 2nd amendment comment. In regards to the Mississippi, I've never hunted a day in my life east of it, and every deer I've shot with a .223 was recovered humanely. East or west, deer are thin skinned game that are anything but bulletproof, and an expanding bullet from darn near anything through the vitals will put a deer down. If you can't do that with your gun of choice, it really doesn't matter WHAT you are shooting, chances are you'll lose deer. Not everyone who owns an ar-15 is misled about their capabilities, nor does every hunter who chooses to you an AR-15 subscribe to the spray and pray school of shooting. To assume otherwise is rather ignorant, IMO. Even if thatas what you've seen in your personal, limited experiences, you cannot apply that universally in any way. To do so makes as much sense as assuming all gun owners are terorrists, which is to say NO SENSE AT ALL
 
I've looked into and educated myself on some of the alternative calibers for ARs. Uppers can run as high as my gun cost in some of these calibers. A .450 Bushmaster upper appeals to me, but the things are over 600 bucks. I only paid a little over 500 for the Bushmaster M4 in .223 and they've been getting cheaper. I looked at uppers in 7.62x39, already set up in the caliber with a couple of SKSs, dies and such. I've killed a couple of deer with it and it's deadly on pigs. But, alas, folks tell me the tapered case demands a curved magazine and it's best, if you want an AR that actually works in the caliber, to buy a 7.62x39 specific lower.

You're not going to find a caliber that'll fit in an AR15 that'll shoot more'n a couple hundred yards on game. The big bullet calibers like the .450 Bushmaster and .458 SOCOM produce impressive energies, up there with .308, and do it with big bullets, but range is limited by lower velocities and BCs. Anything you chamber an AR for is going to be limited to the woods ranges I have around here, 100 yards being a long shot.

One must use what works for the situation and I'm not stuck on ARs. I like my bolt guns, too, especially for hunting. So, all things considered, I just handload a 62 grain Barnes TSX to about 2900 fps for the M4 and that should do fine to 100 yards on pigs and such and probably deer if and when I decide to try it. Meanwhile, for night hunting pigs, I've gotten this green laser spotlight that shines 250 yards and clamps to a rail. I also have a mount for it to use on any of my 1" diameter scopes and put a scope back on one of my SKSs which I used to use for night hunting pigs. It's nice to have that instant reload of a semi auto on pigs. They usually show up in packs. One can take multiple pigs with an auto that would get away with a bolt gun. If the daylight is shining, I'll take my .308 bolt gun for now.

Just sort of my philosophy at the moment, subject to change in the future with experience. I'm just not that enamored with the AR15 platform like some folks seem to be. The magazine gets in the way of a rested shot (got a 10 rounder for hunting, though) and the pistol grip is a pain at times. BUT, if you like 'em, are really into ARs and want to hunt with 'em, knock yourself out. There's lots of choices in caliber now days, too. You ain't just stuck with the .223. They are ALL woods range calibers, though. None of 'em will reach out across a New Mexico canyon for those 350 yard shots on a 300 pound mulie. That is certainly not in their capability. But, in dense woods with shots 100 yards or less, I'll probably give it a try once I get some confidence in the caliber by shooting some pigs with it. :D
 
MC Gunner said: "I just hesitate to use a marginal caliber in deference to the game".

My philosophy exactly! I find this also applies to duck hunting with steel shoot. My friends sometime want to hunt ducks with small gauges with steel shot. I try to talk them out of it. We get way too many cripples using 12ga. To each his own but I am sticking with the use enough gun camp!!

Way to go MC!!!
Bull
 
Yeah, Bull, I went teal hunting a few times with my 20 gauge thinking it'd have the advantage of quicker swing on those little beggers and it just sucked. :rofl: I was shooting 3" number 4 steel. Not only is number 4 a bit light, but 20 in a 3" just doesn't pattern like a 12. So, I went back to my 12 REAL quick. :D 20s are for doves.

I used to shoot 3" steel number 1 or 2, but I find 2 3/4" fasteel or Winchester HV (over 1500 fps) to be deadly. This allows me to shoot my old Winchester 1400 auto that has a 2 3/4" only chamber. I've got 12s. 20s have their place, but that place ain't in the marsh!

My lovely wife bought me a gun I'd been drooling over at an ag supply in a local town. We'd go by there after church and I'd ooh and aah over it. It's a 20 gauge CZ Redhead Delux O/U, fits like a well tailored suit. She was going to give it to me for Xmas, but in mid december, friends from Waco came down for a goose hunting get together and my wife brings me the CZ, says she thought I might want it for the goose hunting trip. :rofl: I had to explain to her that my 10 gauge was more appropriate, but I will use the HECK out of that 20 opening weekend of dove season! :D

You know, if one tool could do it all, life would be boring and I wouldn't need another gun safe. But, such is not the case. :D The .223 cannot do anything any of my bolt guns can't do better. We do have yotes, but I'm not really into hunting 'em. BUT, there's a place in my rifle collection for the M4. If nothing else, it's a fun plinker and the factory ammo is so cheap, it's as cheap or cheaper than .22 magnum. I don't even bother handloading plinking ammo. One thing I'll hunt with it is turkey. I took one with my .22 mag couple of years ago. This year, I didn't score, but I carried the M4 with FMJ. Figured putting out 4 times the energy of .22 mag, an expanding bullet would just waste meat. :D I've learned to carry the thing on a 2 point sling such that it hangs by my side in the field and grabbing it for a shot is quicker than drawing a side arm. It's light bumming around in the woods, too. I'd always disliked ARs for the ergos of carry afield, but after I got one, I learned to properly use a sling with it, a LONG sling, not your average Walmart sling. :D Yes, I may never kill a deer with it, but I still like the thing.
 
Steel shot made me give up duck hunting. We started out setting the decoys in closer and working on our calling, but it was still like spitting at them. As for .223 for deer, I was skeptical when my son hunted with a Savage Axis .223 four years ago. He got 12 deer total that year, 11 with the .223, one with his Taurus .357. So I got a .223 Axis. Then he sold his, (something he almost immediately regretted) and bought a DPMS Sportical. He's taken 4 deer with that. I don't recommend .223 for every deer hunter, but if one is an accurate shot (hey, my son had a good teacher!) and learns the anatomy of the game (an essential part of making ethical shots on game, IMHO) there's no reason to exclude .223 as a deer round.
 
Kleanbore said:
What do you mean by that?
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I know my son does. I think what Stoky is trying to say is that (I hate this term) Elmer Fudd has finally accepted the AR, though he calls it a "Modern Sporting Rifle". That he's focused on hunting, and not the RKBA. While there are far too many hunters like that, not all of us are. Guns are a multi-purpose tool, and I happen to hunt with mine as well as stand ready to fulfill the oath I took when I enlisted.
 
Montana allows "Any centerfire rifle" ,or at least that's what the regs stated a dozen yrs back when I still hunted.

We unfortunately have folks who think a .223 IS a good deer and elk rifle. They always talk about their instant kills...But one never hears about the failures.
 
One thing, I base my judgement of the adequacy of a round by shoulder shots, not base of the head or in the ear. I don't wanna be restricted to head shots.

Yeah, I'm a fudd. I was raised as an outdoorsman. I fish, I hunt, it's what I do. I am also an NRA member and understand the second amendment as well as anyone else on this board thinks he does.
 
I didn't read all of the posts above, so this may have been said - but one reason I believe so many hunters tout and sometimes shout about incorrect laws, especially the "no .223 for deer" thing.

In many states, the .223rem hasn't been legal for very long. In the last ~20yrs or so, Kansas went through several years of constant revisions, trying to unify and simplify things. There were years when a 9mm pistol was illegal but a 9mm carbine was legal (minimim case length in pistol, but only minimum caliber in rifle), then years when a 9mm pistol was legal but a .223rem rifle was not (.230" minimim diameter, no case length minimum - unified for both rifle and handgun)... Now things are simplified to include effectively all centerfire cartridges for handguns and rifles alike, which was somewhere on the order of ~5-8yrs ago (my wife and I are disagreeing, and both are too busy to call Pratt to confirm).

Not many of the older hunters around knew much about the law changes, and frankly, not even a lot of the law enforcement officers (wardens) could keep up. I had a warden effectively trespass and ruin a hunt for me once because he saw me hunting with a Kel-tec sub2000, knowing it was either a 9mm or a 40s&w... But NOT knowing there had never actually been a law preventing a 9 or 40 RIFLE on the books in Kansas - only handguns had minimum case length requirements. It's only natural for law changes to be overlooked, especially by folks who have been in the game long enough to think they know the laws by heart. Laws change faster than common knowledge, sometimes.
 
Vince Cyr said:
Last I looked, something like 38 states allow it, and of the 13 remaining,
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Last I checked 13+38=51 at least you're closer than BHO's 57

As to the rules anytime you try to legislate morals you end up with dumb laws.
KS old law had a case length law that made a 32/20 and 38/40 in original BP guise legal and 327 fed and 10mm that are superior ballistically illegal
 
mavracer said:
Last I checked 13+38=51 at least you're closer than BHO's 57

As to the rules anytime you try to legislate morals you end up with dumb laws.
KS old law had a case length law that made a 32/20 and 38/40 in original BP guise legal and 327 fed and 10mm that are superior ballistically illegal
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What can I say, math has never been a friend of mine:D
My main complaint is that most, if not all, hunters have access to that info. Heck, here in NY, we are given an updated copy of the regs with our hunting license. It even highlights any changes from the previous year. And even if other state's don't go that far, anybody can look something up on the internet nowadays. But most of the people I've talked to still operate under outdated info, or just on their assumptions of what is "right". I guess I just can't wrap my head around that attitude, is all.
 
Every year I pick up a MN hunting regulations book and read through it to see if there were any changes. Looking at 2016s and any centerfire .220 and up is legal for big game in Minnesota. The books are free at any place that you can buy a license from. So there should not be any excuses for ignorance for caliber choice or anything hunting related. With the future of Net neutrality uncertain, the booklets are your best bet for regulations.
 
Regulations book? We don't need no stinkin' regulations book! :rofl:

You know, sometimes you NEED a little firepower......

30jscip.jpg
 
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