Movie weapons

[Mizar]

Since the last thread discussing movie weapons was closed, for one reason or another, I have a couple of questions (It's more like a rant, really):

Why is it, that every time someone mentions a movie gun, someone has to pop up and say: "Since the brother in law of the second assistant director is anti 2A, I condemn that movie and everything in it!" and steer the thread away? I believe that most people participating here understand the simple truth, that maybe 95% of the firearms used are blank-firing conversions of real, live fire, weapons... CGI here, CGI there - cut that, it's not true. Can't we have a discussion focusing on the weapons used? By it's own margin, a blank-firing conversion of locked breech tilting barrel pistol for instance, is much more complicated and involving than most of the people here imagine.

For some of us this is rather interesting - how did those guys made that thing fire blanks and reload? How did they managed to put a double action mechanism in a single action only firearm? Why they did come up with THAT decision, instead of building the desired firearm from scratch... With macaroni and duct tape... In a CGI studio... Helped by a bunch of mermaids.

There are enough interesting technical details then to simply say: "Movies are not real, so the guns are not real either". Just because the director, or the producer, or the leading actor are anti-gun, it does not mean that the gunsmiths and armorers involved hate weapons too. Sometimes those people run to Hell and back to make that dream weapon come true - don't you want to know just a little bit more about it? Or it's just the incompetent - it's CGI, man, fuhgettaboutit...

To put it pure and simple - a fantasy movie can still use REAL weapons in it. Let's discuss those weapons, please!

Rant ended.

 

[Creaky_Old_Cop]

One of the things that drives my wife crazy is when I stop a movie or a TV show to check out the obscure gun being used. Think STRIKE BACK...some of the rifles they used were common as dirt in Europe or Africa, but rarely seen here. It used to drive her batty. The same with the BATTLESTAR GALACTICA series where they used revolvers with add-ons, FN 5.7 pistols, and the South African Vecktor CP1, and a few others.

I get your point though.

 

[stoky]

 

[hdwhit]

Mizar wrote:
To put it pure and simple - a fantasy movie can still use REAL weapons in it. Let's discuss those weapons, please!

I'm game.

I do want to point out that it can go the other way where the props in the movie are not actually guns. Movies such as Battle of Los Angeles by independent production company The Asylum, is notable for its use of thinly-camouflaged Nerf guns as stand-ins for futuristic weapons.

Just because the director, or the producer, or the leading actor are anti-gun, it does not mean that the gunsmiths and armorers involved hate weapons too.

Good point.

Of course I'll make the counter-argument that if the director and/or producer are anti-gun, then showing the protagonists of the movie defending themselves, protecting the planet and generally triumphing over the bad guys through the use of guns would be a pretty silly way to advance the anti-gun agenda. "The gun won the day so we need to ban guns". Yeah, if that's anti-gun propaganda, we need a lot more of it coming out of the anti-gun forces in Hollywood.

 

[Mizar]

You know, for those folks "it's just movies"... Most of the people involved in movie-making, the anti-gun crowd specifically, do believe that somehow, magically, a blank firing only, harmless to all firearms arsenal was made especially for their production. When you told them that real guns are used, they usually freak out (and badly they do)... And that includes some of the directors, producers and etc. - the "high rank personnel". And I'm not talking about some low budget TV-series crime drama, when just a couple of shots are fired and using some kind of replicas, or that bloody CGI is justified...
But that's irrelevant to the topic.

 

[ny32182]

What modern movies DON'T use CGI muzzle flashes and whatnot? I honestly can't think of any right off hand. CGI has come a long way obviously, but it still doesn't look nearly as good as actual blanks.

 

[jmr40]

There is no simple answer. To be honest I believe things have gotten better. I grew up watching the TV westerns and there was very little attempt to make them fit the time period. The 2 most commonly seen guns in most westerns were the Colt revolver invented in 1873 and either a Winchester 1892 or 1894. Most of those movies are set well before 1873.

And there is the problem of getting enough period accurate weapons to use as props. Often the main characters will have the right guns, but extra's will have something close, but not accurate. The movie producers may know it isn't accurate, but only a handful will notice. It isn't just guns, but lots of props are not accurate. But for the most part only a handful will notice.

I don't let politics bother me too much. There are actors and directors that I disagree with politically. But if I like the movie, I watch it.

 

[Sunray]

95% of the firearms used are not firearms at all. Most are plastic look-a-likes. Only the firearms that need to be seen going bang, usually those used by the assorted main characters only, are blank firing real firearms.
"...the leading actor are anti-gun..." Like Eastwood? Most of the movies he was in are fairly accurate as to time and firearm. None of which had anything to do with him unless he was producing or directing and the gun shot sounds were still added in editing.
"...CGI has come a long way..." Yep, but it's still very obvious.

 

[CraigC]

Sometimes they're not only real guns but custom built for the purposes of authenticity. Such as Tom Selleck's Quigley Down Under, Crossfire Trail and Last Stand at Saber River. He actually had multiples built so he'd end up with one for hisself.

(tags are reversed between these two guns)

 

[FN in MT]

Maybe ten years back there was a HUGE collection of TV and movie weapons up for Auction by one of the big auction houses. They had a portion of them displayed at the Reno or maybe the Vegas Antique Arms show...forget which.

What got me about most of them...How beat up they were and the guns that were made to look exotic, like the Star Wars blasters...How absolutely lousy a job they did on the work.

Most were real beaters.

There were some exceptions though...The 1911 used in Magnum PI. Several SAA's and M-92's used by John Wayne . Many of the arms from Lonesome Dove.

It was interesting to handle some of the truly famous ones.

 

[GEM]

Some of the guns used gas to make the flashes. You can see it for example in Starship Troopers. https://www.quora.com/Are-the-guns-used-in-Hollywood-movies-real

There is a show on the Outdoor network - http://outdoorchannel.com/hollywood-weapons which examines movie guns. It's fun.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

View attachment 759542

Hitting the "Like" doesn't really do justice to how I truly feel about that picture...

 

[fpgt72]

On the technical side of things....I was shocked to learn that most of the 1911's you saw in movies up to about the mid 80's are actually Star model B's. Read an article that said they had problems getting the 1911 to work correctly....now rather that is true or not...not sure.

 

[hdwhit]

Shanghai McCoy wrote:
Hitting the "Like" doesn't really do justice to how I truly feel about that picture...

Were you liking the gun or the girl?

 

[hdwhit]

I find it interesting that in The American, George Clooney's character, a professional assassin and weapons supplier to other assassins, is building some super-duper assassination gun and when he pulls it out of the case it's a Ruger Mini-14!

Don't get me wrong, I own a Ruger Mini-14. I love it. I find it to be a near-perfect farm and ranch gun. It is my go-to semi-automatic rifle and I'll probably still be using it until I die, but I would never imagine being the "gunman on the grassy knoll in Dallas in November 1963" with a Mini-14.

 

[tarosean]

Most of the people involved in movie-making, the anti-gun crowd specifically, do believe that somehow, magically, a blank firing only, harmless to all firearms

except when they kill someone... i.e Brandon Lee, son of Bruce Lee, on the set of The Crow was killed by a blank..

 

[Mizar]

In close range blanks could be quite deadly, especially full load rifle rounds. Even a .380 ACP blank, fired "executioner style" to the head, will kill the man in front of it - the hot gasses will penetrate the scull and make a big mess. For "head shots" the barrel is fully blocked and the cartridge is with just enough powder to cycle the action.

 

[RPZ]

I don't watch many Hollywood films at all. I have a large movie collection of old and classic films I watch once in awhile.

I have seen many previews though that make me laugh - like the femme "assassin" that uses a shiney plated Desert Eagle. Hollywood loves to feed embellished nonsense and just steadfastly refuses to go truth - stranger, more interesting and dynamic than fiction.

 

[Jack B.]

Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry and Steve McQueen in The Getaway, shotgunning the police car. Both inspired me to go out and buy a fire arm.

 

[Jim Watson]

My pet peeve over movie guns is continuity failures. It is not at all unusual to see a gun in one scene replaced with Something Else in the immediately following scene. They were probably not filmed the same day due to set or actor availability and the prop man just handed out whatever was on hand at the time.

There is a long thread here on The Dark Tower movie, complete with the name of the man who built double action swing out revolvers to look like1858 Remingtons.

I had an old Gun Digest article about studio guns ca 1960. Westerns were popular then and a main prop shop project was faking up double action revolvers to look like single actions for actors who could not be bothered to learn how to cock a SAA in a hurry.
Lacking CGI, there was a lot of gadgetry.
Several different grades of blanks were available depending on whether more flash or smoke was wanted, and how loud a report.
There were big bore air guns firing ball bearings to break windows, dust capsules to kick up dirt - dance, dude, dance - "blood" capsules, and even the one that launched a knife with stubby blade into a board under the actor's shirt to look like a thrown knife. He sure deserved hazardous duty pay.

The daily wear revolvers on Bonanza were said to be rubber. Less bruising to fall on when, as was common, the Cartrights would duke it out with somebody instead of shooting him or at least brandishing a gun at him.

We read here that the Spanish Star is easier to set up for blanks than a Colt. The Luger is reported to be almost impossible and that scenes with a Luger being fired have subtle camera cuts to let the action be racked.
Then there was the movie in which the cuckolded woman does in her cheating man with a chrome autopistol. No effort at function was made, she fires a shot, racks the slide, fires another, etc. until he goes down.

I was watching Doctor Who the year the mass murder led to the banning of semiautomatic rifles in England. The previous season, the opposition was armed with what appeared to be real Steyr AUGs, with some strap-on gadgetry. The following season, the weapons were plastic toys somewhat modeled on the AUG, but different in detail and at reduced scale. Not even the studio could license a real autorifle any more.

Brandon Lee, son of Bruce Lee, on the set of The Crow was killed by a blank..

That required multiple screw-ups involving dummy cartridges and powdered blanks.
And Jon Eric Hexum shot himself with a blank and found out about the ballistic properties of an over powder wad.

 

[Shanghai McCoy]

Were you liking the gun or the girl?

Yes...

 

[jrmiddleton425]

Clint Eastwood in Dirty Harry and Steve McQueen in The Getaway, shotgunning the police car. Both inspired me to go out and buy a fire arm.

While we're on the subject of technically accurate movies, check out "The Sand Pebbles." Historically accurate usage of '03 Springfield and BAR (Steve McQueen later purchased that exact gun); shows how Navy uniforms are SUPPOSED to be worn!

 

[JONWILL]

except when they kill someone... i.e Brandon Lee, son of Bruce Lee, on the set of The Crow was killed by a blank..

I read about that. What happened was a round that had the powder dumped and the bullet put back in. It was done so the bullet would show from the front of the cylinder when the camera took a front shot

A primer was left in a cartridge where the bullet was put back in. Trigger was pulled and the bullet was pushed into the barrel past the forcing cone

Blank rounds with powder only were put in.

When the first blank went off it shot the bullet in the barrel out and killed him

 

[Mizar]

My pet peeve over movie guns is continuity failures. It is not at all unusual to see a gun in one scene replaced with Something Else in the immediately following scene. They were probably not filmed the same day due to set or actor availability and the prop man just handed out whatever was on hand at the time.

Well, things like this happen when someone is not paying attention. Add to that that filming a single scene can stretch thru the entire shooting period, on entirely different locations (for a seemingly continuous scene) in different countries, different people that are responsible for that... It simply adds up.

The Luger is reported to be almost impossible and that scenes with a Luger being fired have subtle camera cuts to let the action be racked.

That can be made - they simply put a barrier on the receiver, so the toggle joint cannot lock and would stay in a slight positive angle, and grind on the unlocking ridges and that P08 becomes a blow-back. How well it works is an entirely different matter.

Then there was the movie in which the cuckolded woman does in her cheating man with a chrome autopistol. No effort at function was made, she fires a shot, racks the slide, fires another, etc. until he goes down.

If the producers didn't want to spend money hiring a properly converted gun and the mandatory armorer that goes with it... The results speak for themselves.

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, that last one WAS a comedy. 'Goodbye, Charlie' as I recall.