Do a search for "horse thieves hung in the old west". Plenty of results available, both first hand accounts and articles about them. Anyway, my intent was not to derail the thread into a discussion of historical punishments for horse theft. My point was, people instinctively protect their possessions, especially possessions that are critical to survival. We have less of those "critical" sorts of possessions these days, thanks to the "safety nets" built into society. We can, in many cases, allow our possessions to be stolen and still live through the ramifications of not having those items. That doesn't change human nature though, and people heroically protecting the principles that humans instinctively believe to be sacred are often what folks want to see in movies.
Movies, finger off the trigger!
- Thread starter UncleEd
- Start date
I've noticed that more modern usage of firearms in movies and TV shows is far more likely to show safe usage than the shows from even 20-25 years ago.
Gun safety wasn't nearly as important years ago. People got shot and died and it was simply an accident. Today the same circumstances would be treated much differently. Bill Jordon, one of the most influential gun writers of the 20th century had an accidental discharge as a Border Patrol agent that killed another agent. Today he would have been arrested, yet in the 1950's it was just a horrible accident and Jordon went on to become very influential. Had he done that today he would have never had a career.
There are a couple of Vietnam vets that shoot at the same range where I shoot. We end up being there at the same time often. Safe firearm handling came up one day they told me that standard procedure for them was safety off when on patrol. They said the concept of not sweeping someone with their muzzle was completely impractical. It happened all the time and no one worried about it. They trusted their fellow Marines and there were never any incidents.
Gun safety wasn't nearly as important years ago. People got shot and died and it was simply an accident. Today the same circumstances would be treated much differently. Bill Jordon, one of the most influential gun writers of the 20th century had an accidental discharge as a Border Patrol agent that killed another agent. Today he would have been arrested, yet in the 1950's it was just a horrible accident and Jordon went on to become very influential. Had he done that today he would have never had a career.
There are a couple of Vietnam vets that shoot at the same range where I shoot. We end up being there at the same time often. Safe firearm handling came up one day they told me that standard procedure for them was safety off when on patrol. They said the concept of not sweeping someone with their muzzle was completely impractical. It happened all the time and no one worried about it. They trusted their fellow Marines and there were never any incidents.
Old Dog
Member
I was that way once, but only with the wife. Once she made me realize that (1) she had no idea what I was talking about, (2) she also didn't care and (3) didn't like my analysis or venting, I stopped. (Mostly.)
That doesn't stop her with her years of experience working in ERs and hospitals from doing the exact same thing when TV shows or movies get medical stuff wrong. (Women.)
That's a trend that, for once in the sordid history of television, that's positive....any time we get the chance to promote safe handling, we ought to take it....thanks for posting JMR. Rod
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Yep. I was MST-3000 long before MST-3000 was a thing. My next oldest brother (8 years older) was a heavy influence in that.
I believe there is a time and a place for it...which includes knowing who does and does not find it acceptable. Put a bunch of Sailors together watching a naval scene in a movie and you're bound to see it. Watch a naval scene in a movie theater with my wife...nope.
I'm watching a Prime series called, "Murder In" that takes place in France. Every episode is in a different area of France with different characters and actors.
The actors obviously have far different levels of training. They usually hold their pistols in a cup-and-saucer or wrist grip, but some do very well.
All frequently point their guns at each other with fingers on triggers during chase or door-kicking scenes.
The actors obviously have far different levels of training. They usually hold their pistols in a cup-and-saucer or wrist grip, but some do very well.
All frequently point their guns at each other with fingers on triggers during chase or door-kicking scenes.
The Night Rider
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Mari Sandoz for one. Read The Cattlemen. In her biography of her father Old Jules she mentioned that her own father did it more than once
You might also want to look at Jesse James: Last Rebel Of The Civil War. By T.J. Stiles. Dodge City by Tom Clavin
Vigilance Committees weren't uncommon in the late 19th century. They weren't as prevalent as Hollywood would have you believe but they weren't non-existent.
As a matter of fact quite a few photographs of stock thieves hanging from Ranch Gates still exist.
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Old Dog
Member
The premiere of Top Gun (the original) in the Miramar base theater was interesting that way. Few years later, I was down in Panama (after JUST CAUSE) and watched Navy SEALs (the hokey one with Sheen, Biehn) on Rodman with a couple ST 4 guys who seemed to regard the flick as a comedy. Never associated with bubbleheads back then so I didn't know how that community felt about Crimson Tide but I got thrown into recruiting (non-vol) and guys who were considering going subs all wanted to be Jonesy (the sonar tech).
The Night Rider
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I mean, if you follow him through the books he leaves the Navy, I think he goes back to college and gets his Masters. Starts his own tech company becomes a millionaire and gets called back as a civilian consultant
RetiredUSNChief
Member
Let's put it this way...the concept of a commanding officer bringing an effing DOG aboard a frikin' submarine whose sole purpose is to go out to sea and completely lose themselves for 3 months at a time is so ludicrous as to nearly make the rest of the entire movie a laughing stock.
Old Dog
Member
I just realized I mistook Crimson Tide for The Hunt for Red October (that was the one with Jonesy the sonar tech)...
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
I vaguely recall reading an article that tried to quantify exactly this, but it was years ago. It might have been in American Rifleman magazine. The upshot was that there was no time difference in drawing a gun and bringing it to target with finger on/off trigger, or doing the same from low ready.
Practical Shooting competitions like 3 Gun and USPSA/IPSC tend to have RSOs who are sticklers about enforcing the rule, not only on drawing the gun, but when moving with it while not engaging targets. Finger off the trigger certainly doesn't seem to hold back any of the best shooters, let alone any of the beginners or middling participants.
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The Night Rider
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Wasn't Crimson Tide the movie with Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington that had more FBombs than actual dialog?
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
The Four Rules of Gun Safety, including "finger off the trigger" were popularized by Jeff Cooper. I can't find a specific reference for when, but my guess is he probably didn't start talking/writing about them until the 1970s. From then it probably took a decade or more for the rules to be codified into things like gun safety training courses and LE and military training.
So, yeah, WW2 photos that show violations of that rule are simply how things were done at the time. Same goes for movies. Finger off the trigger didn't really seem to be common in movies and tv until the 1990s.
doubleh
Member
As I have stated before I watch movies and TV for entertainment. It for the story not the boo-boos committed by the makers and actors and certainly not for training purposes. I gloss them over. Even seen a jet plane contrail or a high line pole in a western whose time frame was before either existed? I have but didn't complain about it.
I will point out errors to my oldest grandson that is now 40 years old just to annoy him.
He is sneaky and will wait to get even. It's kind of a game between us.
I will point out errors to my oldest grandson that is now 40 years old just to annoy him.
He is sneaky and will wait to get even. It's kind of a game between us.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
UncleEd
Member
Posting #82, that hanging sure looks staged and by
its photo clarity with movement apparently in it, the time
frame most likely was around 1920. The clothing
certainly points to that time frame. Just because it
is from a book doesn't make it any more true than
a scene from a movie is positively true. Any way,
it's just a fun thread drift.
its photo clarity with movement apparently in it, the time
frame most likely was around 1920. The clothing
certainly points to that time frame. Just because it
is from a book doesn't make it any more true than
a scene from a movie is positively true. Any way,
it's just a fun thread drift.
Unless it's a training film, that is undoubtedly true for everyone.
But it misses the point. What people see in movies can condition them in ways they may not realize.
Of the people who have had to threaten or use force, deadly or non-deadly, for defensive purposes, those who have received any instruction about what is lawful and what is not are a small minority. Unfortunately, there are enough real -life incidents in which the actions of the defender end up too close to, or on the wrong side of, the yellow line to provide us with a veritable conveyor belt of appellate cases to analyze.
How many of them happen because the questionable act has been brought into our living rooms for years and prseented as proper, and when under the stresss of the real moment, the defender played "monkey see--monkey do"?
I do not know, but i would wager that the number is not insignificant.
The Night Rider
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Are you satisfied with this one?
You might want to read Sandoz' The Cattlemen. Part of the book deals with The Johnson County War. According to her the Cattle interests weren't above hanging entire families children included
The Night Rider
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The book is (Almost*) always better than the Movie.
* Nothing Lasts Forever Roderick Thorpe. Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep, Phillip K. Dick. The Cowboys Dale Jennings.
* Nothing Lasts Forever Roderick Thorpe. Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep, Phillip K. Dick. The Cowboys Dale Jennings.
You seem very focused on this. What do you suggest should be done about it, if anything, and by whom?
Watched silence of lambs as I guess was bored. Anyway last 5 minutes clarice has her finger on trigger with hammer cocked while she is stumbling around in the dark.. I wouldn't have noticed without this thread nor do I care still a good movie.
d2wing
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I would have had my finger on the trigger too.
