MRAD vs MOA

Exactly what I mean when I say MRAD deals with smaller numbers, which I like.
View attachment 1147530
I stole @Nature Boy's pic and modded it. :)
I disagree in smaller... base 10 is easier than base 12 but easier is what your most familiar with. Just like when someone says it's 25c outside most of us have to stop and think. Smaller increment is 1/8th moa over .1 mil. For shooting that adjustments are not part of the timed event then I would prefer the finer adjustment. If less resolution is desired for time then the size of the chunks aren't about best resolution.
 
Unfortunately, this flies around the internet, but Radians ARE adopted within the International System of Units, aka 'metric system.' It's "dimensionless", but it remains a unit of measure within the Metric System. I'll never understand why so many folks insist "Radians aren't metric," but they are. I assume it has something to do with an outdated perception that the US military wouldn't use metric units, because we're Americans, by God... But Radians are metric.

View attachment 1147634
View attachment 1147635

Degrees (MOA) are also accepted in SI measurements of angles.
And radians have the same benefits to calculation in Imperial units.
Radians aren't metric-unique units may be more a more clear way to say it.
I stand by my technically-correct claim that radians are not metric units.

Also, the military has used the metric system forever, and for the same reason they use mrads over moa -- the less math you make grunts do, the better.
 
Degrees (MOA) are also accepted in SI measurements of angles.
And radians have the same benefits to calculation in Imperial units.
Radians aren't metric-unique units may be more a more clear way to say it.
I stand by my technically-correct claim that radians are not metric units.

Also, the military has used the metric system forever, and for the same reason they use mrads over moa -- the less math you make grunts do, the better.
Actually the navy has its own math like nautical miles and requires mental gym and mental target analysis from officer of the deck to broadband and radar operators but I digress.
 
Degrees (MOA) are also accepted in SI measurements of angles.
[...]
I stand by my technically-correct claim that radians are not metric units.

I provided a photo directly from the International System of Units governing document above - quite plainly, you're TECHNICALLY incorrect. The actual document from the ONLY governing body which matters on this subject is posted before you eyes on page 1. SI specifically claims Radians are a metric unit, and does NOT claim degrees to be included in their system. This is America, and you do have the right to be wrong, but you're still wrong.

Yes, most countries which use the metric system also use degrees rather than radians for angular measure - which I have learned after spending most of the last decade WORKING in European and South/Central American countries is largely because radians are typically "inward looking," as a matter of speaking, essentially, radians are a proportional measure of how far we've traveled around something (displacement around the curve of a circle), whereas degrees are "outward looking," meaning they rather identify how far something has turned (angular displacement), and in MOST applications, the latter is more pertinent than the former.

It is absolutely baffling to me that so many folks refuse to accept common fact - even when presented with the actual standards document from the governing body themselves, aka, when shown the Document from the only people which own the document, people like you still insist on arguing... What would you lose in simply accepting new information and LEARNING, instead of remaining willfully incorrect? That's not ignorance, the knowledge is in front of you - this is something entirely different, and sadly, oddly, it's a very common occurrence.
 
Radians are really an angular measurement that is independent of the measurement system.

Radians "are really" an adopted standard unit of the International System of Units, aka, the metric system.

What gives? Again, the provenance is there on page 1 directly from the horses mouth.

Arguing that Radians aren't metric after seeing that document is like that dude from your home town who doesn't want to accept that the girl he stalked in High School is married, even though he saw the wedding photos, saw her with the ring, and the girl confirmed she's actually married to someone else... The governing body of the Metric System adopted Radians as an official unit within their system, what's so hard to understand and accept about that?
 
Degrees and radians are accepted in SI. Look harder.

A radian is a mile arc at a mile range.

Radians existed centuries before anything resembling the metric system did.

Calling it a "metric unit" is as misleading as calling radians an Imperial unit.
 
Also, the reason for degrees is that base-60 is ultra-divisible. It's why the Babylonians used sexagesimal. It allows a circle to be divided into 3,4,5, and 10 equal parts, which will always be useful.

Edit: Had to look it up -- "highly composite number" is the term, not ultra-divisible.
 
Last edited:
As soon as I stopped "doing the math" in long range shooting, was the minute it became easier. Mil or MOA doesnt matter in that regard. Just use it.

If I shoot at a target at 450 yards and miss by .3 mils right, it doesnt matter how many inches, centimeters, MPH, squirrel tails, or whatever measurement you want to use. It's .3 mils. Adjust .3 mils.

If I shoot at a target at 450 yards and I miss by 2.75 MOA right..(see above)...same thing, adjust 2.75 MOA.

Ive personally completely switched to mils. I find it much easier to adjust and keep track of 4.2 mils than 14.5 MOA.
 
Radians "are really" an adopted standard unit of the International System of Units, aka, the metric system.

What gives? Again, the provenance is there on page 1 directly from the horses mouth.

Arguing that Radians aren't metric after seeing that document is like that dude from your home town who doesn't want to accept that the girl he stalked in High School is married, even though he saw the wedding photos, saw her with the ring, and the girl confirmed she's actually married to someone else... The governing body of the Metric System adopted Radians as an official unit within their system, what's so hard to understand and accept about that?

I am not saying they are not metric/SI, I am say they greatly predate the metric system and are a fundament part of mathematics independent of units and in practice are utilized by most if not all measurement systems.

There are seven fundamental physical constants that the SI unit system is based on (time [second], length [meter], mass [kilogram], electrical current [ampere], temperature [kelvin], amount of a substance [mole] and luminous intensity [candela]) none of them have any bearing directly on angular measurement. Angular measurements are all ways to subtend one full revolution into smaller divisions whether that be breaking it into arbitrarily division like degrees, minutes, seconds, or a ratio such as radians (circumference over radius).

ie If you calculate the centripetal acceleration of an object on a circular path it is, acceleration = (angular velocity)^2 * radius. This equation uses angular velocity as radians/time independent of whether you measure the radius in feet, meter, cubits or any other unit. SI adopted radians, radians existed long before SI.
 
Last edited:
and are a fundament part of mathematics independent of units and in practice are utilized by most if not all measurement systems.

There are a handful of somewhat confounding mathematical concepts that we use as if they are a dimensioned unit, but on closer inspection are more fundamental.
Decibels. Real decibels, not the acoustic-referenced colloquial usage, for instance.
A bel as a "unit" is 10x. A horrible concept to dive into for the first time.
 
So all of the "math" guys talk about in this discussion really is just novelty stuff, like gross range estimation
That certainly not what I was talking about.
I said knowing how to do math without a calculator isn't a waste of time.
In the same post from the one I quoted you said that basically either one will work just fine if you just input the numbers and dial.
And converting to a linear or between the two systems is a waste of time.

But then low and behold a few posts later we find out that being able to do the math could keep a guy from a sprained wrist dialing elevation with a 1/8 MOA turret.
 
I disagree in smaller

He meant the numbers representing downrange trajectory are smaller, not that the incremental adjustment (click value) is smaller.

1000yrd drop for my Dasher is 8.1mils, which is a smaller number than 28.0moa. We saw Nature Boy's turrets side by side, and it's pretty clear how much bigger the numbers get when we count trajectory in MOA instead of mRad. No so dissimilar, as a selling point, I marketed most of the quarter horses I ever sold from our ranch as "16 hands" (when they were, even if they had to stand on a stool to get there), with 1 hand = 4". It would translate more easily to more folks to just say 5ft 4", but that's not how horses are measured, and 16 hands sure sounds tall when we're talking about horses, while when you say 5'4", I picture my petite wife and suddenly think it's short.

For field expedient solutions, I know I'm at ~1.5mils at 400yrds (1.7 actual), then from 400 to 800, I add ~1mil per 100yrds, then I add an extra half mil at 900, standard 1 mil/100yrds to get to 1000, then add an extra 1/2 again to get to 11, then add another extra half to get to 1200. I won't be wrong by more than 2 clicks anywhere on the way out, and I can interpolate pretty easily if I have a target at 1145yrds, that's almost halfway between 1100 and 1200, to get to 1100, I start counting on my thumb at 1.5, when I get to my other thumb, I add an extra half, 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, 5.5 - thumb = 7 (which is 900yrds), 8 is 1000, 1100 is 9.5, and 12o0 is another 1.5, half of that is ~0.7, 9.5 + 0.7 = 10.2... My calculator says it should be 10.3, so just counting on my thumbs I can get within 4" at 1147yrds

MOA isnt THAT much worse, but it's worse - MOA starts at 3.25moa at 300, 5.75 at 400, 8.75 at 500, 11.75 at 600, 15.25 at 700, 19.0 at 800, 23.25 at 900, 28.0 at 1000, 33.0 at 1100, and 38.5 at 1200. So maybe I can cheat a little and accept a little error, 3 at 300, 6, 9, 12 gets me to 600, even 15 would get me to 700 within 1 click, then add an extra MOA so it's 4moa per 100 from 700 to 1000, and 5moa per 100 from 1000 to 1200. So if I'm shooting that 1147, I start on my thumb again at 6moa, but have to add an extra MOA at my pinky, counting 6, 9, 12, 15, 19 on my left hand which ends at 800yrds, then +4 = 23 starts my right hand at 900, then start with adding 5moa, so my right hand counts 23, 28, 33 and 38, so ~1/2 way between 33 and 38 is 35.5, which is what my calculator says I should dial for 1147...

Both memory devices work for quick counting estimated trajectory on my fingers, but because MOA are smaller units, we cross over more "skip" increments, so we have more exceptions to remember. For mils, I remember 1 and half, and 900 and 11oo, but for MOA, I have to remember 3, 4, and 5, and 700, 1000, and 1100. It's not more difficult, it's just "more," meaning "more" to remember, and "more" to forget.

I am not saying they are not metric/SI, I am say they greatly predate the metric system

Ok... and the importance of that is....what?

The length unit "foot" predates the establishment of the Imperial System of units by over 4000 years...
 
If we want to be extra pedantic, IPHY is not imperial or metric, either, despite the name.
Radians equal IPHY divided by 3600, but it's still an identical core concept.

But this is, in fact, pedantry. The people here saying that nobody should be converting out of angular units in 99% of situations are right.
 
Last edited:
He meant the numbers representing downrange trajectory are smaller, not that the incremental adjustment (click value) is smaller.

1000yrd drop for my Dasher is 8.1mils, which is a smaller number than 28.0moa. We saw Nature Boy's turrets side by side, and it's pretty clear how much bigger the numbers get when we count trajectory in MOA instead of mRad.
Correct.
 
Hell no.
I'm a mechanical contractor.
Refrigeration is in PSI and Degrees Fahrenheit
Barometric pressure is in inches of Mercury.

Brutal. I remember in thermodynamics, some of the math using Imperial / British got unreadable fast enough that most of us would just convert to SI straight-away, then convert back at the end when necessary. We caught more decimal error mistakes that way than we lost to any weirdness in conversions.
Props to the people who do that stuff by hand in native units.
 
There’s a reason why MOA is preferable in precision shooting sports like BR and F Class. They often require finer adjustments than allowed with a 0.1 mil scope.
Schmidt & Bender has 0.25CM per click multi turn turrets which have smaller increments than a 1/8moa per click scope.
I'm sure that they're not the only ones.
 
Brutal. I remember in thermodynamics, some of the math using Imperial / British got unreadable fast enough that most of us would just convert to SI straight-away, then convert back at the end when necessary. We caught more decimal error mistakes that way than we lost to any weirdness in conversions.
Props to the people who do that stuff by hand in native units.
I rarely use a calculator.
Even the new technicians coming up today are still being taught in PSI and degrees Fahrenheit.
 
Back
Top