Mumbai attacks: Neighbours battle terrorists attacking Jewish centre

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I take it that gun control in India is such that the average law-abiding
citizen has access to rocks, but the bad guys still have access to full
automatic weapons and grenades.

I commend the local citizens who tried to battle the terrorists with the
only "tools" their gov't probably left easily available to them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...orists-attack-Jewish-centre-Bombay-India.html

Mumbai attacks: Neighbours battle terrorists attacking Jewish centre

Police commandoes battling the Mumbai terrorist attacks surrounded the headquarters of the ultra-orthodox Jewish outreach group Chabad Lubavitch, which gunmen had seized overnight during a series of coordinated attacks across the city.

Last Updated: 11:35AM GMT 27 Nov 2008

Thousands of gawkers stood in the narrow alleyways near the white, five-story building in Mumbai (formerly Bombay) in India, where heavy curtains hung behind windows broken by gunfire. Neighbours had tried to protect the house as armed gunmen seized it Wednesday night.

A witness said three people were killed in the attack, but the account could not be confirmed.

"It seems that the terrorists commandeered a police vehicle which allowed them easy access to the area of the Chabad house and threw a grenade at a gas pump nearby," said Rabbi Zalman Shmotkin, a spokesman for the Lubavitch movement in New York, adding the attackers then "stormed the Chabad house."

The house serves as an educational centre, a synagogue and offers drug prevention services.

Residents tried to protect the centre, clashing with the gunmen and throwing rocks at them in an effort to drive the militants away, said Puran Doshi, a local businessman who lives nearby.

The crowd eventually retreated under fire from the gunmen, who wounded one man, killed three others and threw several hand grenades, he said. Police could not immediately confirm his account.


"They shot indiscriminately into the crowd," Doshi said.

Sanjay Bhasme, 40, who lives in the building behind Chabad house, said he notified the police after the shooting began about 9:45 p.m., but no police arrived for more than 30 minutes — and only after he'd repeatedly telephoned for help.

Shmotkin said he had been unable to confirm reports that a couple and a teenager had been killed in the melee. He did not know the status of Rabbi Gavriel Noach Holtzberg, the main representative at Chabad house, or the rabbi's family.

He said there were other families who lived at the house, which draws hundreds of Israeli and Jewish visitors from India and abroad each year.

Shots were heard a few times Thursday morning, and the commandoes fired tear gas at least once at the house, said witnesses. Three people were lead from the building and escorted away by police: a woman, a child and an Indian cook.


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1227702336066&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

'Eight Israelis held by terrorists in Mumbai Chabad House'

Nov. 27, 2008
DAVID HOROVITZ, matthew wagner, and jpost staff , THE JERUSALEM POST

Indian commandos and police were evacuating civilians and cordoning off the area apparently in preparation to storm the Chabad House in Mumbai India, where a rabbi, his wife and several other Israelis were being held hostage, according to IBN, an Indian news agency.

Chabad spokesman in Israel, Moni Ender, said there were eight Israelis inside the house, including Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka Holtzberg.

Newscasters were calling it the "final assault" on the Nariman House, where Chabad headquarters are located adjacent to the Leopold Cafe, a major tourist center in Mumbai's Colaba area which was also attacked Wednesday night.

According to reports by Reuters, the terrorists had asked the Indian government to negotiate for the release of the hostages. However, the government has repeatedly stated that they would not negotiate.

Several senior Indian police and security officers have been killed in the joint attack, which has caused police to take more cautious measures before storming the Chabad House, said Indian reporters.

Earlier, Reuters reported that one terrorist had been killed by Indian special forces in the Chabad House, but four others still remain barricaded inside, where they were holding off efforts to reach those inside.

Sky News reported that a loud explosion had been heard at the Chabad House. There was no official word as to the cause of the explosion, which could indicate the onset of an attempt to storm the compound.

On Thursday morning, Moshe Holtzberg, the toddler son of the Chabad emissaries, was rushed from the house in the arms of his nanny, Sandra Samuel.

"I took the child, I just grabbed the baby and ran out," said Samuel, 44, who has worked as a cook for the center for the last five years.

She said that the rabbi and his wife were alive but unconscious.

"Pray that we should hear good news," urged a Chabad spokesman, Rabbi Zalman Shmotkin, in a telephone conversation with The Jerusalem Post from New York in the early hours of Thursday morning, Israel time.

Shmotkin also said that the had gunmen seized a police vehicle, which allowed them access to the area around the Chabad House.

Joshua Runyan, the news editor of the Chabad.org/news website, told the Post that there had been "several reports that shots were fired in the vicinity of the Chabad House, and unconfirmed reports on CNN of casualties in the Nariman House." Nariman House, Runyan said, was the original name of the Chabad House, which was purchased two years ago.

Runyan, who is in Jerusalem, said that a friend of the rabbi's had received an email from Holtzberg, unrelated to the attacks, at around the time of the attacks or shortly before they began, but that there had been no contact with Holtzberg since. "Since then, we've been trying all the numbers," he said.

The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem confirmed that hostages had been taken in the Chabad House area. The ministry had yet to make contact with some 20 Israelis in the Mumbai area.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni spoke with the Israeli consul general in Mumbai, who briefed her on the attacks, the Foreign Ministry said in a statement. According to the statement, the ministry and the consulate were making "maximum efforts to ascertain the situation of the Israelis in the city as quickly as possible."

Livni sharply condemned the attacks, saying, "This is further painful evidence that the terrorist threat is the greatest challenge which Israel and the international community have to face. Nothing justifies the unforgivable slaughter of innocents."

Indian news agencies reported that three people were killed in or close to the Chabad House. The dead were not hostages, the reports said.

Phone calls by the Post to the Chabad House and to the Holtzbergs went unanswered late Wednesday night and in the small hours of Thursday morning.

Friends of the Holtzbergs placed messages on various internet sites appealing for information about them.

Israel Radio reported that staff from the Consulate were visiting local hospitals. Runyan said the Chabad House was a popular tourist destination and that "Israelis regularly come by and visit."

In an article on the chabad.org Web site, Runyan wrote that "Chabad-Lubavitch representatives in New York and Israel are working alongside the Israeli Foreign Ministry, the US Consulate in Mumbai and a volunteer team of local residents to ascertain the well being of the Holtzbergs and other Jews in the area."

He added: "People are urged to say Psalms for Gavriel Noach ben Freida Bluma and Rivka bas Yehudis, and anyone affected by the tragedy."
 
Wiki listed India as having a fairly low per capita (income) so decent handguns
would be prohibitively expensive. ("Let's see...do I buy rice this week for my
family of 8 or shoot a box of hollow-points....")

I imagine legal possession of a nice "cheap" SKS is probably out of the question?
 
There was an article earlier this year about the Indian government waiving some of the red tape to get a rifle for men who got a vasectomy.
 
Are Enfields reserved for police only?

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I noticed the enfields, steel pots, and lack of body armor on the news last
night. Is this a poor budget thing or doesn't the Indian federal gov't trust
their local cops with better weapons either?
 
Rifles

THE Indian ggov manufactured SMLEs in 308 and most foriegn gov issue reserve weapons to their police forces.but it also may be there is a shortage of auto's.most weapons were obtained from british.:rolleyes::uhoh::D
 
...after seeing the first pix with Enfields i wondered
what that would feel like - facing jihadists with full auto AKs
with just a very good club.....

...they probably never trained with them either....


Unlike the US Police in other countries are often traffic-police
who never even really draw their gun in their whole career.....
 
In many countries it's not unusual for reservists to be issued outdated arms.

I'm sure everyone has been called up for duty in India during this emergency including reserve and PT officers who may be issued older rifles.
 
I think it's a terrible thing going on. The same thing could happen here quite easily. It will when "they" are ready. Oh our police would quell it fairly rapidly.... but then the one man held off police in a house for several days in Bowling Green Ky.... think about a well armed force with resolve.

We are moving toward another bad time with what we label terrorist groups. India and Pakistan both have nuclear capabilites. The religious war.... they want the nucs and eventually they will get them.

Obama what are you going to do about it? Attack Pakistan? Attack India? But, oh no, not Iran. He can sweet talk Iran.
 
I thought people in India were allowed to own handguns, maybe even carry them concealed. But, as another poster poined out, they are probably too expensive for most people there.
 
Having a handgun license is an automatic conceal carry permit.

However the government has darconian laws on how much ammo, calibers and types you can have etc. Not uncommon to get a license for a hand gun and be restricted to holding only 4 cartridges and buying a maximum of 10 a year.
Prices are out of whack as well, a used SW in .32 or .357 can change hands at prices in excess of 10K USD.
The police is very poorly armed.
 
If the army and/or the police use a given caliber, it's forbidden for Indian people to use or possess this caliber, on a state-wide basis. The term is "prohibited bore." .32 ACP is a very popular handgun caliber.
 
Thin Black Line said:
I take it that gun control in India is such that the average law-abiding
citizen has access to rocks, but the bad guys still have access to full
automatic weapons and grenades.

The engineers I work with can confirm this, recently an engineer and her husband, both Indian were asking me about a pistol they would both enjoy getting started with, they are both now naturalized Americans :D
 
Methinks that even a rock-thrower of prodigious force and accuracy would gladly settle for an Enfield instead.
 
I understand that a trained Enfield user can run one pretty fast. Magazine capacity is 10 rounds too.
Enfields also have more range than most submachine guns.
The Afghans used to use them pretty effectively against Russians armed with AKs.
 
I cannot speak to the police department in Mumbai but I would not short change the Indian Army. Even equipped with a SMLE they have been known to send straight to hell Germans, Italians, Pakistanis and Chinese troops. Keep in mind a trained rifleman with a SMLE at 200 yards might have a pretty could chance of neutralizing a lightly trained terrorist with an AK. If it comes to that, my hat is off to those Indian troopers.
 
With the wake of the terrorist attacks in India on Brits and Americans by Pakistan-based extremist groups with connections to Al Qaeda.
It is interesting how India's government has been trying to disarm the public. As the Indian Law stands today a citizen of this country cannot even own a stick without inviting a penalty of 7 years in prison.
Hopefully our gun rights in the USA won't be eroded any further with the new anti-gun administration soon to step in. The USA could be in the same boat as India.
 
Regular policeman are very rarely armed. They usually carry around a nightstick, club, or some variation - usually carrying it around in their hand.

Like most "unarmed" socities, they have separate forces that are armed - like is the case in Britain as well - but as one can imagine, they tend to be a reactionary force.

There are going to be a lot of pissed off people. Disarming the public for their safety, huh? How does hundreds of women, children, and men slaughtered in cold blood sound safe to you again? Yea...
 
Invasion of a country, like Iran, will not prevent this type of terrorist group from carrying out a planned attack. We've been in an anti-terror war, over the last several years, that has cost us $600B. Well, I guess let's spend a trillion dollars on each invasion of a country where there might be terrorism! That's dumb. Taking over a country is not as it appears in the movies, novels or history books. Let's be a bit more thoughtful. Seriously, young American troops' lives are at stake. The terrorists could be some group of guys, here in the U.S., who get together at some dude's house to "play cards". Just because you have an awesome hammer (i.e., U.S. military), it doesn't mean that hammer is the right tool to rebuild a transmission.
 
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The news coverage of other buildings made it seem as if many of the police were armed with FALs as well, as they seemed to be wearing tan police like uniforms.
 
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