Muzzle velocity and report/noise in hadgun calibers - a few thoughts and questions.

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EDIT:unfortunately I overlooked the fact that the data in the graph is for a SUPPRESSED rifle, so its pretty much irrelevant when it comes to unsuppressed handguns...



Recently I've been researching a quite interesting issue of muzzle report and its loudness after reading over and over again about how loud .357 Magnum is.
Since v. loud noise can permanently damage our hearing, and in most SD scenarios the shooter is not wearing any kind of hearing protection, it seems to be quite serious topic.

Some time ago I came upon an interesting article:
http://www.silencerresearch.com/sound_suppressors_on_high_powered_rifles.htm

The most important part was the diagram of muzzle velocity vs noise.
bulnoise.gif
Source: http://www.silencerresearch.com/

Remember it's only a general idea and the values are not comparable to other numbers available over the net, since the distance from the muzzle, the equipment etc. varies.

Accodring to this, the noise levels increase violently in the transsonic range all the way to slightly supersonic, then they stay more or less constant.
This is v. interesting because apparently the amount of powder itself isn't really important, the only really important factor is the velocity, assuming the barrel length and caliber are constant.

Now, all other data available over the internet clearly shows that as long as the bullet is travelling at 1300fps+, the longer the barrel, the less noise. This greatly depends on the caliber and other factors, but it's the general rule.

I wonder how accurate is this chart. And if it is indeed accurate, then the following questions have to be asked and answered:

1) what about the barrel length VS the muzzle velocity. Would 2,5 inch .44 Magnum snub-nosed revolver really be much more quiet than 6,5 inch revolver if the formerm achieves only 1100 and the latter f.e. 1300 fps with the same load? Or 3 inch barreled 9mm pistol vs 5 inch barreled 9mm pistol. Would the impact of way shorter barrel length outweight the drastic increase in report due to velocity?

2) why are SD ammo makers pretty much oblivious to the presented data? Why isn't anyone doing any kind of thorough research on this topic? Is permanent hearing loss during shooting - affecting a.o. trained professionals like LEOs such a negligible issue?

3) do YOU think that the graph is accurate and believable? Can it be applied to handguns?
 
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As I read it, the study correlates bullet noise with velocity for suppressed firearms. That would remove the most important contributors to handgun noise.
 
Oh snap, my mistake.
I saw a nice chart, and overlooked the supressor part... too much enthusiasm I guess...


Well then, I think there's not much to talk about, other than:

What's the reason for the lack of proper research on this topic?
There are just NO sources. Nobody ever did any kind of real scientific research, the only numbers available are general estimates, and with typical .357 Magnum loads ranging from 110 gr running at 1550 fps to 180 gr at 1140 fps out of 4 inch barrel these general estimates give us absolutely no idea.

I would just love to see, how does 180 gr Remington HTP .357 Magnum compare to 9mm 125gr +P ammo, but there is just no data available, the topic is apparently almost ignored by gun communities, guns and ammo manufacturers and researchers.
 
Posted by Krator: What's the reason of lack of proper research on this topic?
There are just NO sources. Nobody ever did any kind of real scientific research, the only numbers available are general estimates, and with typical .357 Magnum loads ranging from 110 gr running at 1550 fps to 180 gr at 1140 fps out of 4 inch barrel these general estimates give us absolutely no idea.
There are studies that show the noise levels of quite a number of handguns and other firearms. Not all of them, but quite a number.

The data do not show the effects of some variations amongst loads.

Why? My opinion is that that is because the differences do not materially affect permanent noise induced hearing loss, and that they would not provide any actionable information regarding mitigation.

The data we have tell us that one does not want to fire a hot handgun load or a 12 ga. shotgun indoors without hearing protection.

One can also probably infer that a .45 ACP is probable better in that regard than a 9MM +P or a .357 SIG.

Other than that, what else would one want to know?

Keep in mind also that room geometry, wall surfaces, and the amount of carpeting and upholstered furniture will likely have more of a bearing than variations between .357 loads.
 
Although this doesn't reflect anything based on scientific study, I can tell you from experience you don't EVER want to shoot a full throttle .357 mag. particularly H110/296 or like load, without hearing protection.

I have made the mistake more than once of forgetting to put my ear plugs in, and I now suffer permanent hearing loss and ringing in my ears 24/7. Full throttle 110 gr. up to 158's, doesn't matter, the report is extremely loud and damaging. Even just one unprotected round can permanently damage your hearing.

But I do carry a .357 mag. daily, and it is loaded with full tilt H110/296 140 gr. or 158 gr. JHP loads. I know the risk, but I reason that I would much rather suffer some hearing loss, verses the consequences of a deadly attack. I also carry +P 38 special 125 gr. JHP's off and on, but those +P Longshot loads are no walk in the park either, and are nearly as loud as the .357 mag. loads.

Hope this helps some.

GS
 
The thing is, a .308 rifle in no way can be compared to how loud a revolver is.

Bullet speed has nothing to do with it.

Consider the high pressure gas escape in a revolver right in front of the chamber where chamber pressure is highest.
At the barrel / cylinder gap.
Then again when the bullet exits the muzzle still at higher bore pressure then in a typical rifle length barrel.
(True also of auto pistols. Muzzle exit pressure is as high or higher then it is on a 20" rifle.)

The blast you get from the revolvers B/C gap and short barrel releasing high pressure gas so soon in front of the chamber is what makes them loud.
Not the crack from a super-sonic bullet.

You can hear that down range, not right in front of you.

.357 Mag firing:
Image from a THR post by AnaxImperator
September 8, 2008, 12:12 AM

Night_Rossi5.jpg

rc
 
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For whatever its worth dept: Several years ago I was at the shooting range when I was approached by several folks, an older man and several younger persons. They were of a class from (Then) Memphis State University, conducting noise level/hearing loss studies. They asked me if they could take decibel measurements as I shot. (The range officer had told them I had the loudest guns) I agreed to this.

They had a device that looked like an Army canteen, of black plastic, with an aluminum microphone (?) where the fill cap would have been. As I fired, the instructor held this near my right ear (With ear muff protection on.)

I fired off some hot .357 Magnum rounds, several different .44 Magnum handloads, and some .45 Colt rounds. To my surprise, and theirs, the decibel level varied only very slightly. I question them about loudness vs pitch, but only the decibel level was recorded.

Bob Wright
 
The chart is not about the noise of firing, it is about the noise made by the bullet passing through the air (a "sonic boom") and I fail to see the relevance to any self defense situation, unless someone is returning long range rifle fire and is concerned about the hearing of people in the path of the bullet.

Jim
 
+1

And if you have ever heard a rifle bullet pass close by?

It is not a loud Sonic Boom like a jet fighter breaking the sound barrier anyway.

It is more like someone snapping their fingers a few feet away.

It will not damage your hearing.
Unless it hits you in the ear.

The damaging noise is directly due to the release of high-pressure gas from the muzzle, or in the case of revolvers, from the muzzle, plus the cylinder gap.

rc
 
From my experience a 4" barreled 357 mag revolver loaded with 125gr Hornady XTP with 14.2gr of Blue Dot is really LOUD. At the range I had to double up on the ear protection, this load rattled my teeth and provided some unhappy looks from nearby shooters.
Shooting this load in a confined space with no protection would make your ears bleed.
 
Are we saying?

So if you are trying to shoot quiet develop the silencer to muffle the muzzle blast and do not be concerned with the speed of the projectile?
 
Pretty much so, IMO.

The muzzle blast will give away the direction the shot came from instantly

A passing super-sonic bullet 'snapping by' your head?

Not so much that I could ever really tell where it came from.
I could just tell one went by.

On the other hand, a sub-sonic rifle load is much quieter to start with.
Because it is down-loaded with less powder, and much much less pressure.
So it doesn't make near as much noise at the gun in the first place..

rc
 
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I edited the opening post, to because once again - I made a big mistake.
Also asked the mod to close the thread, but if he doesn't want to - so be it.


Some of you have pointed out there is some data available. What I would love to see are comparisons of different loads and barrel lengths. .357 158gr Remington SJHP from 4 and 6 inch barrel f.e.
Why? Because even 2 decibels is a huge difference and if f.e. 158gr .357 Magnum loads are queiter than 125gr, then they are obviously less damaging than 125 grainers.
Now, 180 grain loads travel even slower, so maybe someone should actually consider manufacturing really heavy self defence load - 180 grain would give us good momentum - and that would mean good penetration even with lots of expansion - unfortunately all commercialy available 180gr loads are made with hunting in mind and they don't really have great expansion, and most SD loads are 125gr, and I think it's a common knowledge that 125gr at 1450 fps is bad for the bad guy and your hearing.
 
Buffalo Bore makes a .357 round that addresses this issue. The following is language from their web site. If they already haven't, hopefully other manufacturers will follow. The trade off is reduced velocities. I'm far from an expert, but it looks like it's a good compromise in that it addresses this issue while still being an effective round.

"Your ears: Most folks don't think of the level of "report" as being a problem during a life threatening/defensive shooting and that may be correct for the actual moment of conflict. However, to lose some of your hearing for the rest of your life, following the shooting incident, is unnecessary and undesirable. Full power 357 magnum ammunition is deafening, even more so when fired from short barrels and even worse if you are required to shoot from an enclosed area such as a vehicle or indoors. Buffalo Bore's Tactical Short Barrel 357 magnum loads are not as hard on your hearing as full power ammunition. Although the use of hearing protection is still desirable, if possible, when using this ammo.

For those who wish to carry a 357 magnum revolver for potential "conflict resolution", these new Buffalo Bore loads put an end to the "tactical" draw backs associated with our regular 357 magnum ammo. These loads are great for use in longer barreled firearms too."
 
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