Wondering if anyone has run Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, or CorBon 10mm loads through a carbine or SMG over a chronograph?
MV for 10mm Carbines?
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KBintheSLC
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I too am curious on the results. I wish Kel Tec made a Sub2K in 10mm. I'm not even aware of any 10mm SMG/Carbines.
RevolvingGarbage
Member
Mechtech makes several pistol "uppers" in 10mm for both Glocks and 1911's
http://www.mechtechsys.com/
And theres the Mp5/10mm of course
(second to last picture on the bottom of this page)
http://home.planet.nl/~rouw0062/dcdbase/fa_smg_mp5.htm
Thanks krochus looks like the full power 180's gain about 200fps going to the 16" barrel.
So with heavier bullets 10mm is still about the same as 357 in a carbine.
And the MP5/10 would gain about 100 fps though I don't know if it would function with Buffalo Bore and such.
MSAR is something I have never heard of, I was thinking Mech Tech, AR's, & MP5/10.
So with heavier bullets 10mm is still about the same as 357 in a carbine.
And the MP5/10 would gain about 100 fps though I don't know if it would function with Buffalo Bore and such.
MSAR is something I have never heard of, I was thinking Mech Tech, AR's, & MP5/10.
Factory 10mm pistol rounds are maximized for an auto loading pistol.
This means faster powders are used for the shorter barrel, and as a result they only gain a few hundred FPS from several more inches.
It is not a limitation of the cartridge, but rather factory anticipation of the likely use of the round. In a handgun.
There is plenty of case capacity if you want to put in some slower powders and reach even higher velocities.
The pistol powders used have burned up most of their energy in the first few inches. To maximize power from a longer barrel you want something that is still burning when the bullet is 50%-90% down the barrel. Not finished when 20% down the barrel.
If there is gas ports in the particular design the perfect round would be the one where the bullet is just prior to the ports when the powder ceases to burn. In a design without them you want burning to cease a short length prior to exiting the barrel.
The slower burning powders would be less powerful in a handgun though.
Many consumers and most of the likely market will base the total performance potential of a produced round on what it can do from a pistol. This means a cartridge designed for pistol caliber carbines with a 16"+ barrel would probably get extremely poor reviews when the majority of the market used it in a pistol. Most of the powder would remain unburned and the velocity would be low.
As a result of this gain a bad reputation and with a limited carbine market they would probably do poorly in sales.
One reason many revolver cartridges do well in pistol caliber carbines is not because of some sheer power, but rather that many of them are designed to actually be shot through a long barrel (for a pistol.)
Semi-auto pistols measure from the end of the barrel to the breach face.
Revolvers only measure the barrel forward of the cylinder. This means revolvers do not measure the cartridge length where the pressure is also acting to proper the bullet, but semi-auto pistols do.
For example a .357 Magnum with a 5.5 inch barrel and a typical cylinder length of 1.6-1.7 inches would really have over a 7 inch barrel measured like a semi-auto pistol.
The same is true for a .44 Magnum.
Most semi auto pistols have a barrel of 3-5", meaning a true 3-5" tube.
Many revolvers, dating back to black powder days (when barrel length was extremely important for velocity increases) are over 5" barrel length, + the cylinder length, giving you a 6-7" tube on average.
This is especially true of calibers commonly used for hunting like the .44 Magnum (and many states have minimum barrel lengths for hunting.
Where even a 7.5 inch barrel is not out of place. A 7.5 inch revolver barrel, plus the cylinder length of 1.7"-1.750" brings you around a 9 inch overall tube, or a 9 inch barrel in semi-auto pistol terms.
What all this means is from the factory many revolver rounds are actually optimized to be fired from almost twice the barrel length of semi-auto rounds.
As a result when you look to see which will perform best in an even longer barrel, the round optimized to burn over a longer period of time will certainly perform better.
(Of course semi-auto rounds are designed to be extracted from a semi-auto action and will perform more reliably in a semi-auto carbine.)
Now if you reload you can use powders that will burn slower and use up most of the barrel length, giving impressive results from a carbine. But the same loading would perform horribly in an short barreled pistol, shooting most of the unburned powder out of the barrel with a low velocity projectile.
Making the extremely different loadings essentially two distinct calibers, even though they are technically the same.
That is really neat. Now what about a 9x25 conversion (10mm Auto brass necked down to 9mm)?! That light round could probably scream with the right powders from a 16" barrel, putting it into rifle velocities. 3,000+ FPS should be achievable.
This means faster powders are used for the shorter barrel, and as a result they only gain a few hundred FPS from several more inches.
It is not a limitation of the cartridge, but rather factory anticipation of the likely use of the round. In a handgun.
There is plenty of case capacity if you want to put in some slower powders and reach even higher velocities.
The pistol powders used have burned up most of their energy in the first few inches. To maximize power from a longer barrel you want something that is still burning when the bullet is 50%-90% down the barrel. Not finished when 20% down the barrel.
If there is gas ports in the particular design the perfect round would be the one where the bullet is just prior to the ports when the powder ceases to burn. In a design without them you want burning to cease a short length prior to exiting the barrel.
The slower burning powders would be less powerful in a handgun though.
Many consumers and most of the likely market will base the total performance potential of a produced round on what it can do from a pistol. This means a cartridge designed for pistol caliber carbines with a 16"+ barrel would probably get extremely poor reviews when the majority of the market used it in a pistol. Most of the powder would remain unburned and the velocity would be low.
As a result of this gain a bad reputation and with a limited carbine market they would probably do poorly in sales.
One reason many revolver cartridges do well in pistol caliber carbines is not because of some sheer power, but rather that many of them are designed to actually be shot through a long barrel (for a pistol.)
Semi-auto pistols measure from the end of the barrel to the breach face.
Revolvers only measure the barrel forward of the cylinder. This means revolvers do not measure the cartridge length where the pressure is also acting to proper the bullet, but semi-auto pistols do.
For example a .357 Magnum with a 5.5 inch barrel and a typical cylinder length of 1.6-1.7 inches would really have over a 7 inch barrel measured like a semi-auto pistol.
The same is true for a .44 Magnum.
Most semi auto pistols have a barrel of 3-5", meaning a true 3-5" tube.
Many revolvers, dating back to black powder days (when barrel length was extremely important for velocity increases) are over 5" barrel length, + the cylinder length, giving you a 6-7" tube on average.
This is especially true of calibers commonly used for hunting like the .44 Magnum (and many states have minimum barrel lengths for hunting.
Where even a 7.5 inch barrel is not out of place. A 7.5 inch revolver barrel, plus the cylinder length of 1.7"-1.750" brings you around a 9 inch overall tube, or a 9 inch barrel in semi-auto pistol terms.
What all this means is from the factory many revolver rounds are actually optimized to be fired from almost twice the barrel length of semi-auto rounds.
As a result when you look to see which will perform best in an even longer barrel, the round optimized to burn over a longer period of time will certainly perform better.
(Of course semi-auto rounds are designed to be extracted from a semi-auto action and will perform more reliably in a semi-auto carbine.)
Now if you reload you can use powders that will burn slower and use up most of the barrel length, giving impressive results from a carbine. But the same loading would perform horribly in an short barreled pistol, shooting most of the unburned powder out of the barrel with a low velocity projectile.
Making the extremely different loadings essentially two distinct calibers, even though they are technically the same.
That is really neat. Now what about a 9x25 conversion (10mm Auto brass necked down to 9mm)?! That light round could probably scream with the right powders from a 16" barrel, putting it into rifle velocities. 3,000+ FPS should be achievable.
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NOOOOOOO not the burnrate vs bbl length MYTH
why what did we do to deserve this?
The fact of the matter is take any cartridge you wish and compare propellants with a particular bullet weight. The propellants that yield the highest velocity in one bbl length will 90% of the time still be top dog in ANY other bbl length.
Powder burnrate is based on cartridge case capacity and pressure rating ONLY barrel length DOES NOT figure in. The reason for this is that all the powder burns in the first couple three inches of bullet travel. ESPECIALLY with handguns. But for some reason folks get this silly idea in their head that powder burning drives the bullet forward in an opposite but equal reaction like a rocket. A better comparison is an internal combustion engine where the bullet is the piston at TDC and the case is the cylinder head. When the powder/fuel is ignited it turns to high pressure GAS and that's what pushes the bullet down the bbl and not FIRE
more explanation from RCmodel
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5974432&postcount=5
why what did we do to deserve this?
The fact of the matter is take any cartridge you wish and compare propellants with a particular bullet weight. The propellants that yield the highest velocity in one bbl length will 90% of the time still be top dog in ANY other bbl length.
Powder burnrate is based on cartridge case capacity and pressure rating ONLY barrel length DOES NOT figure in. The reason for this is that all the powder burns in the first couple three inches of bullet travel. ESPECIALLY with handguns. But for some reason folks get this silly idea in their head that powder burning drives the bullet forward in an opposite but equal reaction like a rocket. A better comparison is an internal combustion engine where the bullet is the piston at TDC and the case is the cylinder head. When the powder/fuel is ignited it turns to high pressure GAS and that's what pushes the bullet down the bbl and not FIRE
more explanation from RCmodel
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5974432&postcount=5
It is not a myth. When using what is essentially fast rifle powders in a handgun cartridge there is much more burn time.
You are limited by the pressure limitations of the round. A fast powder optimized for a cartridge reaches near that saami pressure quickly, then drops quickly. A slower burning powder can reach it and then remain near it longer. It may take more inches of barrel to reach the pressure, but if it remains at the operating pressure longer it transmits more energy to the bullet.
1 inch of travel at 37,000 PSI will impart less energy to the bullet than 4 inches traveled at 36,000 PSI.
The perfect but unobtainable burn rate would be the one that sits right below SAAMI pressure for the full length of the barrel.
As the length of the barrel changes what can be done changes. If you only have 3" of barrel to work with, then you need to hit your desired pressure fast, even if you do not maintain it at all. If you have 16" of barrel you can take a little longer to reach it, and then maintain it for a longer period of time.
As the bullet moves down the barrel it takes more gas to equal the same pressure between the back of the bullet and the breach face. That is pure physics. So the powder must continue to burn creating more gas to even maintain the pressure, or even to drop more slowly in pressure. The higher the pressure is during the full travel of the bullet down the barrel the more energy will be imparted and the higher the velocity reached.
An optimized burn reaches the operating pressure and remains near it longer.
This is achieved by a slower burning powder that has enough power to reach the desired pressure, and then continue to burn maintaining that pressure.
The curve changes as the bullet gains velocity in the barrel. Pressure must be created faster and faster to keep pace with the round. Meaning gas created from burning propellant.
This can especially be achieved by combining a fast powder with slower powders in separate layers creating a powder that both reaches the pressure quickly, and then continues to burn as the bullet speeds down the barrel and pressures drop.
(But mixing powders is dangerous and not recommended and can easily result in unpredictable outcomes even after working great several times.)
It can also be achieved by a slower burning powder that still reaches the pressure while you having several inches of barrel left, and then maintains it longer.
This is the safest and most predictable method to obtain greater results within the pressure limitations or a cartridge.
So say you have a pressure limit of 37,500. Lets say you choose to operate in the 35,000-37,000 range. If you do that with just fast pistol powder in a long 16 inch barrel you will be wasting most of the barrel. You will reach that pressure within the first few inches, and then it will drop very quickly by thousands of PSI as the distance between the back of the bullet and the breach face increases without any additional burning or pressure being created.
The 10mm auto cartridge though has a lot of case capacity, far more than necessary to achieve that. This allows options, like slower powders to reach that desired pressure range, and then remain at it longer.
If a slower powder takes 5 inches to reach that pressure, but then maintains it for another several inches, it imparts more velocity by the time it exits the 16 inch barrel than the fast powder ever could.
So the limitation is still the case capacity of the round. However the full case capacity potential of the 10mm round is hardly ever met because it is unnecessary in small pistol barrels. Meaning a relatively small amount of a powerful fast powder can reach the operating pressure limits.
Many full power loads for a 10mm auto only take up around half of the case capacity. Suggesting it could not be better optimized for a 16" barrel to achieve even greater results is just silly.
You are limited by the pressure limitations of the round. A fast powder optimized for a cartridge reaches near that saami pressure quickly, then drops quickly. A slower burning powder can reach it and then remain near it longer. It may take more inches of barrel to reach the pressure, but if it remains at the operating pressure longer it transmits more energy to the bullet.
1 inch of travel at 37,000 PSI will impart less energy to the bullet than 4 inches traveled at 36,000 PSI.
The perfect but unobtainable burn rate would be the one that sits right below SAAMI pressure for the full length of the barrel.
As the length of the barrel changes what can be done changes. If you only have 3" of barrel to work with, then you need to hit your desired pressure fast, even if you do not maintain it at all. If you have 16" of barrel you can take a little longer to reach it, and then maintain it for a longer period of time.
As the bullet moves down the barrel it takes more gas to equal the same pressure between the back of the bullet and the breach face. That is pure physics. So the powder must continue to burn creating more gas to even maintain the pressure, or even to drop more slowly in pressure. The higher the pressure is during the full travel of the bullet down the barrel the more energy will be imparted and the higher the velocity reached.
An optimized burn reaches the operating pressure and remains near it longer.
This is achieved by a slower burning powder that has enough power to reach the desired pressure, and then continue to burn maintaining that pressure.
The curve changes as the bullet gains velocity in the barrel. Pressure must be created faster and faster to keep pace with the round. Meaning gas created from burning propellant.
This can especially be achieved by combining a fast powder with slower powders in separate layers creating a powder that both reaches the pressure quickly, and then continues to burn as the bullet speeds down the barrel and pressures drop.
(But mixing powders is dangerous and not recommended and can easily result in unpredictable outcomes even after working great several times.)
It can also be achieved by a slower burning powder that still reaches the pressure while you having several inches of barrel left, and then maintains it longer.
This is the safest and most predictable method to obtain greater results within the pressure limitations or a cartridge.
So say you have a pressure limit of 37,500. Lets say you choose to operate in the 35,000-37,000 range. If you do that with just fast pistol powder in a long 16 inch barrel you will be wasting most of the barrel. You will reach that pressure within the first few inches, and then it will drop very quickly by thousands of PSI as the distance between the back of the bullet and the breach face increases without any additional burning or pressure being created.
The 10mm auto cartridge though has a lot of case capacity, far more than necessary to achieve that. This allows options, like slower powders to reach that desired pressure range, and then remain at it longer.
If a slower powder takes 5 inches to reach that pressure, but then maintains it for another several inches, it imparts more velocity by the time it exits the 16 inch barrel than the fast powder ever could.
So the limitation is still the case capacity of the round. However the full case capacity potential of the 10mm round is hardly ever met because it is unnecessary in small pistol barrels. Meaning a relatively small amount of a powerful fast powder can reach the operating pressure limits.
Many full power loads for a 10mm auto only take up around half of the case capacity. Suggesting it could not be better optimized for a 16" barrel to achieve even greater results is just silly.
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KBintheSLC
Member
I doubt this is a myth. If it is, then why do we bother formulating different powders for pistols and rifles. What about "short barrel" pistol loads? Is that just a marketing scam? I'm no expert in reloading, but I would not be surprised if the 10mm can be altered to perform better in a long barrel using a slower rifle-specific powder.
The Balance Point
The 10mm cartridge is designed to hold just enough fast powder to achieve the highest velocity in pistol length barrels.
However, if you switch to a carbine barrel + 16" then you can benefit from a slower burn rate powder. Unfortunately, the slower burn rate powder can only occupy the same space (in the cartridge) as the faster powder. You will get less energy from the slower burn rate powder than the faster burn rate powder.
The only option is to use a compressed powder charge to fit in the case as much slower burn rate powder as possible.
The 10mm cartridge is designed to hold just enough fast powder to achieve the highest velocity in pistol length barrels.
However, if you switch to a carbine barrel + 16" then you can benefit from a slower burn rate powder. Unfortunately, the slower burn rate powder can only occupy the same space (in the cartridge) as the faster powder. You will get less energy from the slower burn rate powder than the faster burn rate powder.
The only option is to use a compressed powder charge to fit in the case as much slower burn rate powder as possible.
I disagree. With some pistol powders you can easily fit 2x a maximum SAAMI load worth of powder in a 10mm auto case. (Best to avoid reloading with such powders for just that reason.)
That means there is certainly a powder that will fill it to capacity and reach and hold high pressure for a longer period of time in a longer barrel.
(There is also weaker powders that will fill close to capacity and not achieve that.)
You just need the right powder.
As far as my opinion on a carbine in 10mm auto I said this on a related post:
In a carbine there is a lot of potential, especially with different powders, and the high case capacity. Light bullets would probably see the greatest increase in performance.
I always thought the MP5 in 10mm auto was the best one.
However when limited to semi-auto I personally have minimal use for a pistol caliber carbine.
The reduced recoil over mild rifle rounds is not significant outside of full auto fire, but the performance per round is greatly decreased.
I also think a 16" barrel on a pistol caliber carbine is excessive and detracts from the practical benefits. Major velocity increases drop off before that, and maneuverability is decreased.
They would actually fill a nice role with a 8-10" barrel in select fire.
However due to laws I would rather just move onto a rifle.
(Sure you can SBR it where allowed, but once again it is easier to just move on to a rifle.)
That means there is certainly a powder that will fill it to capacity and reach and hold high pressure for a longer period of time in a longer barrel.
(There is also weaker powders that will fill close to capacity and not achieve that.)
You just need the right powder.
As far as my opinion on a carbine in 10mm auto I said this on a related post:
In a carbine there is a lot of potential, especially with different powders, and the high case capacity. Light bullets would probably see the greatest increase in performance.
I always thought the MP5 in 10mm auto was the best one.
However when limited to semi-auto I personally have minimal use for a pistol caliber carbine.
The reduced recoil over mild rifle rounds is not significant outside of full auto fire, but the performance per round is greatly decreased.
I also think a 16" barrel on a pistol caliber carbine is excessive and detracts from the practical benefits. Major velocity increases drop off before that, and maneuverability is decreased.
They would actually fill a nice role with a 8-10" barrel in select fire.
However due to laws I would rather just move onto a rifle.
(Sure you can SBR it where allowed, but once again it is easier to just move on to a rifle.)
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but this usually is only the case with very low pressure 19th century revolver cartridges. A modern round like 10mm is quite full inside it's case when loaded with optimal propellants such as BlueDot.
In a nutshell in any barrel length you want to shoot As much of the slowest propellant that will fit in the case and still reach your pressure rating.
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