KRISS 10mm Carbine

[Zaydok Allen]

I have a long standing fascination with the 10mm auto cartridge, and since I'm about to start reloading, I see an opportunity to make 10mm an affordable cartridge to shoot.

Along with that I have a long standing fascination with pistol caliber carbines. I've been wanting a 9mm carbine for some time, and am working towards that goal, and plan to buy a CZ Scorpion Carbine. I have a few magazines already, and a Vortex optic for it.

However the other day in my internet stumbling, I discovered that KRISS is now chambering their carbines in a 10mm version. I was also unaware that they sell lower receivers that are fully interchangeable. suddenly the KRISS offerings are very interesting to me again.

Does anyone have any experience with any of the KRISS 10mm offerings? Youtube videos I've watched seem to indicate recoil is very manageable in this gun. I could see picking up a 10mm, and a 45acp lower at some point. I'm debating ditching the Scorpion concept and going with all KRISS lowers and one full sized gun.

Yes, I'd be careful not to accidentally make an SBR and go to prison.

 

[redbullitt]

No experience with the 10 kriss, but I have gotten to shoot the 45 version as an automatic SBR. Very cool little gun. Just about the best house gun I can imagine lol. Recoil is much lower than other similar rifles, so I figure the 10mm would be similar due to the design.

Nothing bad to say about it other than you have to be a class 3 dealer to get the intact version lol.

Not sure I would be too enthused about one as a 16 inch carbine OR as a pistol.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

No experience with the 10 kriss, but I have gotten to shoot the 45 version as an automatic SBR. Very cool little gun. Just about the best house gun I can imagine lol. Recoil is much lower than other similar rifles, so I figure the 10mm would be similar due to the design.

Nothing bad to say about it other than you have to be a class 3 dealer to get the intact version lol.

Not sure I would be too enthused about one as a 16 inch carbine OR as a pistol.

Yeah I hear what you are saying. An SBR version is what this gun really wants to be, but I really don't want to register anything or pay the fees. I used to own a Sig P556 and it was heavy and hard to hit with. But that was before the pistol brace revolution. I know shouldering the gun is illegal but putting it up to your cheek is doable. The carbine alleviates any fears, but a braced pistol leaves the option of a can and SBR build an option.

Maybe I need to take the SBR plunge.

 

[Dog Soldier]

Not familiar with the Kriss. I bought a .40 Cal Hi Point Carbine. They were selling for $249 and I have over 1,000 rounds of 155 grs. ammo. It appears the carbine shooting the .40 S&W is close to the 10 MM fired in a handgun. when the snow melts I will fire it.

 

[tarosean]

Ive been out of the 10mm game for quite some time. However, I have a Vector Carbine in 9 (gen2)
it's been a good gun with no issues.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

A couple years ago I was at the range with and a guy there had a Kriss in .45 ACP. I was shooting my HK USC and he came up and started to chat. When I asked about his Kriss he said he loved the gun "when it worked" but that he'd had a number of problems with it. After two trips back to the factory it still didn't run 100%. This is a sample size of one so obviously take it for what it is, but the webs do seem to have some reports of reliability problems. That worries me a bit since it's not a cheap gun.

My Scorpion is only 9mm but it runs like a sewing machine. Ditto for my Beretta Storm Carbine.

Not a lot of options for a 10mm. Maybe an AR or an MP5 clone? Or maybe the LWRC SUB45 might actually be released someday?

 

[horsey300]

Not familiar with the Kriss. I bought a .40 Cal Hi Point Carbine. They were selling for $249 and I have over 1,000 rounds of 155 grs. ammo. It appears the carbine shooting the .40 S&W is close to the 10 MM fired in a handgun. when the snow melts I will fire it.

And you will enjoy the snot out of it!

 

[LoonWulf]

^ so thats what that is........

Id love to get a 10mm carbine, that seems like a really nice companion to my 9. Ive also fallen in love with the homely little hi-point, wish they would come up with a locking breach version in some of the "hotter" rounds.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

A couple years ago I was at the range with and a guy there had a Kriss in .45 ACP. I was shooting my HK USC and he came up and started to chat. When I asked about his Kriss he said he loved the gun "when it worked" but that he'd had a number of problems with it. After two trips back to the factory it still didn't run 100%. This is a sample size of one so obviously take it for what it is, but the webs do seem to have some reports of reliability problems. That worries me a bit since it's not a cheap gun.

My Scorpion is only 9mm but it runs like a sewing machine. Ditto for my Beretta Storm Carbine.

Not a lot of options for a 10mm. Maybe an AR or an MP5 clone? Or maybe the LWRC SUB45 might actually be released someday?

I have been watching some reviews and doing some reading. It does appear that the Gen 1 guns had issues. In reading and looking at reviews of the Gen 2 guns, I have been hearing positive reports overall. I think the gent you talked to represents a population of unhappy Gen 1 owners, but I'm not going to assume it applies to Gen 2 guns.

I've also read that the original guns preferred hot ammo and have really stiff recoil springs. I wonder if they were just over sprung a bit and didn't like cheap target ammo as a result. The 10mm is a pretty hot round, if loaded properly. I wonder if the helps alleviate the issue.

Ive been out of the 10mm game for quite some time. However, I have a Vector Carbine in 9 (gen2)
it's been a good gun with no issues.

So no reliability issues tarosean?

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Yeah I hear what you are saying. An SBR version is what this gun really wants to be, but I really don't want to register anything or pay the fees. I used to own a Sig P556 and it was heavy and hard to hit with. But that was before the pistol brace revolution. I know shouldering the gun is illegal but putting it up to your cheek is doable. The carbine alleviates any fears, but a braced pistol leaves the option of a can and SBR build an option.

Maybe I need to take the SBR plunge.

You know I was thinking about this as I was trying to fall asleep last night, and I think for my purposes my earlier post was flawed. A 5.5 inch barrel is right in line with a traditional pistol length barrel. You are going to get similar velocities from the Kriss as you would from a Glock, EAA, or the Sig 220 10mm. Yes, the Kriss is going to mitigate the recoil a lot better, but my entire premise behind this was that the reason I thought a 10mm carbine would be great is because with a carbine length barrel and properly loaded, warm 10mm ammo, you should be getting some pretty impressive velocities, and thus range and power from the 10mm cartridge. There are limits of course. It's still a pistol caliber and you only have so much potential. The bonus is if you have a 10mm sidearm that utilizes the same cartridge. I picture this combo being extremely versatile where I live as you could easily hunt dear with it and have more than enough firepower to deal with a troublesome predator, be it two or four legged.

An SBR is a highly useful weapon, but IMO, a 5.5" barrel is too short to provide that much more benefit over a traditional pistol. If Kriss would offer SBR's that have 8" or 9" barrels, I think we'd be in the very sweet SBR spot. I know they are trying to keep the barrel short enough to add a suppressor and still have a compact package though. So I'm coming back around to the carbine.

Regarding the concept of upper and lower interchangeability, I originally wanted a 9mm carbine because I wanted something cheep to shoot for short to mid range fun. While I think it could be fun to buy a Kriss 10mm and get a 9mm lower, I see I can get a complete Scorpion Carbine for less than the cost of a Kriss lower. I think I'll stick with my original plan and get the Scorpion since I already have some mags, and just think it's a cool gun, and also pick up a Kriss 10mm carbine later on, and then if I decide I really need a 45 acp carbine, I'll pick up the lower for the Kriss.

 

[Dog Soldier]

And you will enjoy the snot out of it!

Thanks old friend. I have never experimented with a Hi Point Carbine. I have taken it apart and looked it over. It is well made for a low priced American made firearm. I ordered some add ons and the Hi Point company is out standing with their service.
There are many fellows shooting these for fun at the gun club. The little "orphan" is waiting in my cave to go shoot'in.

 

[tarosean]

So no reliability issues tarosean?

Not a single hiccup...albeit it only has 1350rds down the pipe.
only negative is it did take me a bit to find a comfortable grip.

 

[Corn-Picker]

I have a long standing fascination with the 10mm auto cartridge, and since I'm about to start reloading, I see an opportunity to make 10mm an affordable cartridge to shoot.

My apologies if this is too far off-topic, but have you considered a CX4 Sotrm in 40S&W? According to BBTI (Ballistics by the Inch), the hottest 10mm loading only makes 200 ft-lb more energy out of a 16" barrel than the hottest 40 S&W loading out of a 16" barrel (1000 ft-lbs for the 10mm vs 800 ft-lbs for the S&W). The 40 S&W has the advantage of relatively inexpensive steel cased ammo if you don't want to bother with reloading.

 

[Acera]

Maybe an AR or an MP5 clone?

Both of those have been out for decades now.

H&K first produced a 10mm MP5, known as the MP5/10, back in 1992. FBI had a bunch of them when they were in their 10mm love/hate affair.

Olympic Arms has had a 10mm AR for about that long. They still offer it. Others have made 10mm ARs as well.




.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

My apologies if this is too far off-topic, but have you considered a CX4 Sotrm in 40S&W? According to BBTI (Ballistics by the Inch), the hottest 10mm loading only makes 200 ft-lb more energy out of a 16" barrel than the hottest 40 S&W loading out of a 16" barrel (1000 ft-lbs for the 10mm vs 800 ft-lbs for the S&W). The 40 S&W has the advantage of relatively inexpensive steel cased ammo if you don't want to bother with reloading.

I've shot a Beretta Storm in 9mm and thought it was a fine weapon. In fact I originally intended to buy one. However, I like the design and modularity of the CZ Scorpion Carbine better, along with the Kriss.

Also, I am not going to forget about reloading. I have a Dillon progressive press and am just heading down the path of loading my own ammo. I am more likely to get the components I need to make my own 10mm ammo rather than buy factory ammo. Also, I don't believe most factory 10mm ammo is loaded particularly hot, and if I'm going to shoot a hot round, then I plan to shoot Buffalo Bore, or Double Tap ammo, or load my own as hot as I can without seeing evidence of over pressure. While I do feel 40 S&W has a lot to offer, and did own one at one point, it no longer interests me as a cartridge I need in my arsenal. I'd rather have the hotter 10mm ammo, even if the difference in maxed out ammo isn't that huge.

So thanks for the suggestion, but there are two big reasons that doesn't interest me.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

Both of those have been out for decades now.

H&K first produced a 10mm MP5, known as the MP5/10, back in 1992. FBI had a bunch of them when they were in their 10mm love/hate affair.

Olympic Arms has had a 10mm AR for about that long. They still offer it. Others have made 10mm ARs as well.

Unless I misunderstood the OP there was no stipulation that it be a new design, just something that runs 10mm. The Kriss (Gen 2) may well be a great gun, I dunno. Certainly an MP5 clone in 10mm is a great gun with a long track record provided you get one from a better maker.

I guess there aren't an awful lot of options for a carbine in 10mm unless you can go the bespoke route. IIRC there's a small company that makes DI ARs in 10mm and .45 ACP.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I've shot a Beretta Storm in 9mm and thought it was a fine weapon. In fact I originally intended to buy one. However, I like the design and modularity of the CZ Scorpion Carbine better, along with the Kriss.

Also, I am not going to forget about reloading. I have a Dillon progressive press and am just heading down the path of loading my own ammo. I am more likely to get the components I need to make my own 10mm ammo rather than buy factory ammo. Also, I don't believe most factory 10mm ammo is loaded particularly hot, and if I'm going to shoot a hot round, then I plan to shoot Buffalo Bore, or Double Tap ammo, or load my own as hot as I can without seeing evidence of over pressure. While I do feel 40 S&W has a lot to offer, and did own one at one point, it no longer interests me as a cartridge I need in my arsenal. I'd rather have the hotter 10mm ammo, even if the difference in maxed out ammo isn't that huge.

So thanks for the suggestion, but there are two big reasons that doesn't interest me.

The Storm is an awesome little carbine but I too think the CZ Scorpion is a better design. There's one advantage to the Beretta though- its extremely short OAL. It must be about as short as a long gun can legally be. That's why I keep mine in the corner by my bed (9mm version).

 

[Peter Gun]

I liked my storm in .40 but it is limited by only running on beretta mags. 17 rnds max for .40
None of the USA or promags worked for crap.
I would buy one again if they made one that took glock mags.
Kriss should be shipping .40 Vectors soon, I saw one place on gunbroker taking deposits on them.
I agree they should make SBR bbls at about 9 inch to maximize the muzzle velocities of pistol calibers.
16" bbls actually slow the rounds back down to nearly the same as pistol length bbls.
My plan is to to buy a pistol version of the .40 , then eventually get another carbine "lower" and have the bbl shortened to 9".
The replaceable "lowers" on vectors are actually "uppers" with the bbl attached and cost about 75% of a whole gun, not quite as convenient a as on ARs. Kriss is going to be getting a large share of my gun budget in the next couple years, along with the ATF for stamps. If Kriss come out with a rumored integral suppressed version , even more so!

 

[Zaydok Allen]

The Storm is an awesome little carbine but I too think the CZ Scorpion is a better design. There's one advantage to the Beretta though- its extremely short OAL. It must be about as short as a long gun can legally be. That's why I keep mine in the corner by my bed (9mm version).

Yeah that's one of the things I found appealing about it too. It hit me as being a really great little truck carbine to have on hand.

I plan to keep the scorpion near the bed too. If the HPA actually manages to pass, I'll slap a can on it faster than you can say.......... "slap a can on it"

 

[Corn-Picker]

I agree they should make SBR bbls at about 9 inch to maximize the muzzle velocities of pistol calibers.
16" bbls actually slow the rounds back down to nearly the same as pistol length bbls.

FYI, velocities for the 9mm/40S&W/10mm keep increasing for barrel lengths out to at least 16"

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/40sw.html

 

[Peter Gun]

Look at the tables, only the super light loads do.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Well since this is a thread about a 10mm carbine, I think this graph is a lot more relevant.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/10mm.html

In general it looks to me like velocity gain for the 10mm starts to tapper off at about 13" barrels, not 9". True, the gain may be negligible, but that is part of the down side of a pistol caliber carbine. However, I've never thought of ANY pistol caliber carbine to be ideal out past 100 yards. I've always thought of them as a short range hunting gun, or at most a mid range anti personnel gun. If you want to shoot past 100 yards, I would suggest that a good scoped rifle in a rifle cartridge is what you want. But if you are looking at slapping steel, maybe having a change at defending your home in one of those civil unrest situations we do not really discuss on THR, along with taking some meet from the woods here and there, and looking to share ammo between your handgun and your rifle, then a 10mm carbine seems to fit the bill. The only downside is that if things have really gone down hill, and acquiring more ammo is a necessity, it won't be very readily available. But again, this is not really the theme of this thread.

In regards to velocities, I have no interest in "muzzle energy" from any of these light weight boutique SD loadings. I really wish BBI had stuck to heavier more typical bullet weights, like 165, 180, and 200 grains. That's what interests me as the down range penetration will actually make the cartridge beneficial. Not that the lighter weight ammo stinks, but I just feel penetration is a more important factor over speed, and a heavy bullet will typically penetrate deeper.

I'm a slow and heavy sort of guy when it comes to SD cartridges. The benefit to the 10mm is it's fast, but still pretty heavy, so it can fill multiple roles. Since I can make my own ammo, I have no doubt I'll be rolling two types of ammo. Sluggers, and plinkers.

 

[Peter Gun]

I should clarify, I misstated a little.
Most pistol loads are still a little faster out of a 16" than a 4" bbl, but slower than from a 9" bbl. exceptions are very light and fast 9 and .357 sig.
Most loads see peak muzzle velocities around 10-12" bbls, but with very little or no increase over 9" bbl.
so 16" bbl is usually a waste of 7" or so of steel.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I should clarify, I misstated a little.
Most pistol loads are still a little faster out of a 16" than a 4" bbl, but slower than from a 9" bbl. exceptions are very light and fast 9 and .357 sig.
Most loads see peak muzzle velocities around 10-12" bbls, but with very little or no increase over 9" bbl.
so 16" bbl is usually a waste of 7" or so of steel.

Sadly though necessary to avoid a stay in a Federal prison unless you have a tax stamp. I prefer the 147gr loadings in 9mm but from a 16" barrel the 115gr are impressive.

I do wish that there were more offerings in 10mm.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Honestly, if Sig came out with an all Steel Legion P227 chambered for 10mm, and a MPX chambered for 10mm, I doubt I'd be giving the Kriss any real thought. If the MPX accepted the 227 magazines, and could be had with extended magazines, I'd probably be selling some stuff to bring the combo home as soon as possible.