My first armed run in with the police

[thewillweeks]

Hello gents and ladies,

Tonight I had my first ever traffic stop. I had one minor collision (reported as a following to close) a few years back, but this was the first time ever I saw the flashing lights in the rearview mirror. I'd like to tell you guys about the experiance, and ask for advice/feedback on the situation/my responses.

Situation occured as follows. I'm driving down the main street in town, Vine St is the name. I merge left in to the left most lane for me turn on the other side of town, going to WalMart for groceries. I'm being careful to control my desire punch it and speed a little like everyone does it seems on that street and in a flash I'm very glad, as I see the car behind me. We stop at a redlight, the officer right behind me. I'm mentally thanking my foresight to driving aggresively as I sometimes do when the roads are empty. I rarely speed for any distance, but I frequently punch it and sometimes spike up over the speed limit, but never more than about a 1/4 block. Anyway, I know aggressive accelration is frowned on so I'm silently rejoicing. Until I pull through the green light and I glance back one more time to see how quickly the officer is coming up behind me, I'm driving 5 under now to see if he'll pass me and go on his way. Not 200yds past the light I see the lights come on and I'm like "crap, I didn't do anything!" but I immediately pull over and he's right behind me so I realize it is me he's after. I stop the car, and turn on the interior light (Thank goodness the light worked, it's picky sometimes.) I've already realized he didn't have the siren on, just lights, so I'm wondering whats up. The car is still in drive, interior light on, and I flip on the blinkers. I put the car in park and lower the driver side window all the way. I place my hands on the steering well, one on top of the other, open handed and wait. He flashes a spot light on my tag to identify the car before approaching it.

The officer identifies himself, standing behind the arc of my door, and states the reason for the stop. "Sir, are you aware you have a head light out?" Of course I wasn't and responded "No sir." With that response, he steps in the arc of the door looking in at me and the car. He immediately spots my openly carried Glock 23, I don't even have a chance to state that have a firearm after responding to his first question before he asks,
"Is there a particular reason you're carrying a firearm?"
I respond,
"For personal protection, sir."
I'm being very careful to tack sir on to everything, and I'm darn near freaking out and screaming.
"Is it load?"
"Yes sir it is."
And here's where I made a mistake, I then offered
"Would you like me to turn it over to you for the remainder of the stop?"
"No, that isn't needed, just move slowly and don't reach towards it. Are there any other weapons in the car or with you sir?"
"No sir"
"Alright then. Can I have your DL and insurance information sir?"
He's using sir again, and I guess that's a good thing, I'm starting to calm down a little. I've rehearsed mentally what I need to do before, but I'm still nervous as I've never done it before.

I state that my DL is in my rear left pocket, and being given permission to get I remove the wallet and hand him the DL, and drop the wallet in my lap. I then state that the insurance information is in the dash. He gives me permission to reach over for it. I purposefully move my insurance information back and forth between the dash and the console depending on where I have a firearm. The pistol had front of the slide firmly tucked between the passenger seat and the console, allowing the entire grip and half the slide to be visible to the officer. Sometimes I store a pistol in the dash, and then insurance information is in the console. I get the envelop that has my registration, insurance, expired insurance, and ironically a copy of the last fine I got for following too close after I bumped someone's bumper. I inwardly cursed myself for having it in the evelope as he likely realizes what it is and is forming a judgement based on that about me. I find the insurance card and hand it to him. He study's the two, and then calls for back up. He asks for my current residence and is now starting to write on a ticket form. After recieving a response from backup he tells me
"Alright, what I'm gonna have you do is step out of the car while we wait for backup since you have a loaded firearm."
I step out of the car and shut the door so that he can't reach inside car more than legally needed, or see it as permission to search the vehicle. He asks me to come to the back of the vehicle and wait. He gets in his car, grabs a few things and hops back out. He calls a few more things in from the front of his car, his things setting on the hood of the car. I can't tell much, he's referring to various codes, including a code 28 but I don't know what that is. The one thing I do hear is him running my name and DL for a CCHL permit (which I don't have, yet). He then walks over to me and continues filling out his paperwork. He explains why he asked me to leave the car, since his backup is accross town and policy is to not leave an unguarded person with a gun, either guard them till backup arrives or seperate them. He apologizes for the cold weather and comments he came back from his car because
"If you have to stand out here, so do I."
I like this cop, even though I'm going to get a ticket from him(at least in my head I'm sure I'm going to get a ticket...) I assure him it's fine and that I understand. My brother is an officer I say, he asks where and I respond. He says backup will now shortly be here. I ask,
"Out of curosity, who is your backup? If that's all right to ask..."
He hesistates so I quickly follow up,
"I only ask because I attend church with a few of your fellow officers."
I'm already seeing getting to explain this to them. He assures me the officer will be there promptly, and then asks where I attend church. He's know's where it's. I ask if I can walk to the front of the car to check to see which light exactly is out. He says that's fine, but asks me to walk on the passenger side (out of traffic) and when I return to stand where I was he asks if I saw which I confirm. He finishs paperwork just as the other officer arrives on scene. The other officer comes up with a mag light, pauses near us, and then moves to inspect the car through the windows. He doesn't confirm the headlight being out. Back up officer asks if I have a holster for my pistol, I only have the one on my hip. He informs me that the firearm is being carried in an insecure manner, and that 1) I should check to make sure that pushing the pistol in between seat and console won't cause a discharge (already checked and assured myself of that) and 2) that if I was in a wreck the gun would go "flying" so I should secure it better. I don't know if that's true, it's pretty tightly fit in there, as tight as or tighter than the holster on my hip is, but I respond that I will resinspect the position of the firearm and safety thereof, and try to get a holster to use when it's position there.
The orginal officer now hands me a warning and says he's written me just a warning this time. He asks that in the future I immediately identify that I have a firearm in the vehicle if stopped in Hays.

So here's my response to what happened.

1) I screwed up offering to let him have the gun during the stop. Kansas officers have the right to request a weapon be handed over for the duration of a stop if they feel their safety demands it. Offering it was a mistake though, I should have waited to see if he asked for it. I figured offering to hand it over was a way to assure him I had no malplaced intentions, hence why I blurted it out.

2) I might have been able to identify that I had a firearm better. I honestly didn't have a chance to say I had it (which I intended to) before he asked why I had it. I'd barely got the words "No sir" in reference to the head light out of my mouth before he asked about the firearm.

3) A holster for the car may be needed. The gun feels safe to me, and takes effort to draw/move from the position it's in but if it'd make the officers more comfortable I don't mind to much.

Our PD takes a lot of crap, like most do but these guys were respectful, maybe even straight up nice. I'm happy with our Hays PD. You hear the stories about "If they call for backup, you're getting a ticket no matter what." which really did worry me, but apparently not all cops are that rough. I'm honestly thankful that the officer who stopped me did stop me, not the other on. He seemed to be in a much better mood, and view my carrying of the gun in a more positive light than the back up officer. But then again, the backup officer didn't interact with me much and I suppose there is some natural...I don't know what you call it, extra caution and questioning when you first identify that a firearm is present, and the other officer had a chance to work through that before I ever exited the vehicle and see that I was being respectful and prompt to obey his every request, something the other officer wasn't privy to.

Thinks I'm going to remember.

1) Sir at the end of every sentance went a heck of a long way.

2) Knowing and using a appropriate response, "personal protection" etc, was better than "uh, cuz I can?" Yes you can, but you might want to know ahead of time what a better response is.

3) Rehearsing helped me a lot. I knew what I needed to do, even though I'd never done it before. He really appericated me identifying the location of items before I reached for them, moving very slowly, and waiting for his goahead before moving again.

4) Know your laws. I knew he had the right to have the gun for the duration of the stop so I offered to let him do just that (bad idea, but best of intentions) and that knowledge of the law and willingness to comply eased his mind greatly I think. When I left the vehicle I clearly latched the door so that it wasn't "open" to his further inspection. He was great and nice, but I don't consent to searches.

Anyone care to share thoughts? Point out other mistakes made?

 

[coloradokevin]

As a career law enforcement officer, I think you did a good job of handling things properly overall. Here are a few things I would say:

1) It's a good idea to let the officer know that you have a gun immediately, even if you don't have to. Notification isn't required in my state, but I always do it if I'm stopped, and I tell my family members to do the same. It reduces the potential for bad things to happen if the officer sees the weapon and thinks you might be planning to use it against him/her.

2) Whether or not you offer to surrender your gun is irrelevant in the sense that the officer already knows he/she has the right to hold the gun during the stop if he/she chooses to do so. I've never asked for a lawfully carried gun during a stop, and I've never had a true criminal volunteer the fact that they were carrying a gun. If someone tells me they have a gun on them I already feel very good about the fact that they aren't planning to use it against me (after all, who really announces that they're about to ambush someone?).

3) The officer used bad tactics in this stop. It makes little sense to get a person out of the car with a loaded gun for the sake of "safety". It only gives the person stopped a better chance of launching an attack against the officer. My normal speech to a lawful gun owner is something like: "please keep your hands visible and away from the firearm during the stop. If you promise not to play with yours, I'll promise not to play with mine."

4) I'm glad he didn't write you a ticket. Ticketing a simple headlight violation is a chicken-poop citation in my book… better to notify the person of the vehicle issue (who probably didn't realize they had lost a headlight) so that the situation can be fixed.

 

[WestKentucky]

I have been pulled over a lot...A LOT, 9 times in one week a few years back... So I keep my drivers license and a copy of all of my insurance cards in my wallet (car, truck, bikes, boat, medical). When I get pulled over I do almost exactly what you did as far as window down, hand placement, etc. As the officer walks up I always make a point of delaying answering whatever question or greeting he gives and state "officer I am a concealed carry permit holder. My weapon is loaded and is located _________ ." Only when I'm on my bikes has there ever been a concern, and that was because my shirt flopping in the wind let the officer see the gun before I could tell him I'm a carry permit holder. My next demands are always name and badge number, then a detailed description of the violation for which I am being questioned. This by - the -books approach sends signals to them that I have legal representation should I need it, and that they need to get to the point and be precise. Once we exchange identification we get right to whatever is going on. So far I have had a ticket for doing 35 in a posted 35mph zone which was thrown out by the judge, a 35 in a 25 also thrown out by a judge, and s seat belt ticket which I paid to avoid a courtdate. This is in well over 50 stops, probably closer to 70 or 80 stops.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Pulled over 50 to 80 times? Wow...

 

[rondog]

No kidding.....

 

[TennJed]

Might want to consider obeying the traffic laws

 

[JeeperCreeper]

I'd just calm down and relax. As long as you're respectful, normally everything will be OK.

I got pulled over for a stop sign (3 AM, no one on the road, most ridiculously slow roll through ever, but hey... I broke the law). I had my pistol on my seat and he asked to take it. I was fine with it, as long as it made him comfortable.

The way I see it, I'm not doing anything wrong, so I have no reason to create a fuss because he can't get me with anything. I know you aren't "supposed" to do things to prove that you are innocent, but I just wanted to get it over with. Now I'm not sayin I will let an officer search my car or house for no reason... but you get the idea.

If you aren't breaking the law, or if it's just a traffic stop, then it's no biggy.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I'm not sure why everyone is shocked by someone being pulled over so many times. There are lots and lots of law abiding American citizens that are frequently detained and/or searched by LEOs.

As to the OP, I think you handled it pretty well. Being pulled over generally stresses me out, even if I know it's not a big deal and I rarely have it happen. The last time it did though I wasn't stressed at all because I didn't have time to think about. Like the OP I didn't initially even realize I was the target and couldn't figure out why I was being pulled over at the time.

 

[esalawos2]

As long as you're not violating any law, you need to calm yourself.

Even if you do violate something, you need to calm yourself too. Or else something ugly might just because of a small avoidable mistake.

 

[NoVA Shooter]

Anyone care to share thoughts? Point out other mistakes made?

No ticket, polite officer, explanations of what and why things were happening... Sounds like whatever you did was correct.

"...that if I was in a wreck the gun would go "flying" so I should secure it better."

On this, the officer is correct. If you can draw it by hand, it will come out during a wreck (something more than a 10 MPH collision). Don't underestimate the force of a collision and the inertia of a 1 to 2 pound object traveling at 30+ MPH. Now, that being said, is it really any more unsafe than any other 'loose' 1 to 2 pound object in your car if you were in a wreck? Probably not. I'd be more concerned with accessibility and ease of drawing than the fact it will go "flying" if I got in a wreck.

 

[AR15activist]

Don't be afraid of the police, do turn on the dome light, be calm and don't idolize them so much, don't open carry.

 

[CZ9shooter]

I keep my insurance papers cliped to my visor. This way I will never have to reach into the glove box or center console. Both of which occasionally contain a weapon.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Massad Ayoob, traffic stops; guns....

I disagree with immediately telling a sworn LE officer you are armed or have a loaded firearm in the vehicle unless required to by your state/location(laws or ordinances).
Blurting out that you have a gun will make a cop even more jumpy or assertive.
Traffic stops are extremely dangerous to LE officers & state troopers. They not only need to worry about violent acts or gunfights but traffic accidents or careless drivers who plow into vehicles or people even with emergency lights or equipment going, .
I would remain silent, turn down or turn off the radio, put on the interior light if at night, not fidget or move around, keep my hands in plain view & Id ask the officer/trooper before I reached for my insurance/DMV records/DL etc.
When or if the officer says; Do you have any weapons or anything I need to know about, then Id explain slowly & clearly that I was armed or that I had a valid state issue CCW/W license.
I prefer this approach because Id rather answer the cop's questions and let them gather/collate information on their own terms rather than make them defensive or suspicious.
Id also look into having a GoPro DV camera or a smart-phone DV camera to document the entire stop. This works well for both sides(driver & sworn LE officer). I was in a 2012 event with 2 police patrol officers who lied repeatedly.
I went to the PD's internal affairs unit who later confirmed all my statements/allegations.
Author & legal use of force expert: Massad Ayoob(who's also a police captain/reserves) put out a great Youtube.com clip explaining what to do in a vehicle stop if you are a CCW license holder or armed.
For context, Id also see the "frisbee golf" police traffic stop. The driver stays calm and polite but must deal with a less than honest/ethical police officer. That video is on Youtube.com .

 

[Deaf Smith]

About two months ago I was, sadly, going 55 in a construction zone... and it was occupied.

The motorcycle cop stopped me. Of course I have my CHL (with a VERY LOW SERIAL NUMBER) and insurance, inspection, license, etc.. totally up to date.

Here in Texas you must show your CHL if asked for your DL (and of course I was asked!) But then my car is registered to me and thus he knew I had a CHL already.

He didn't even ask were my gun was (Glock 26, strong side holster under the sleeveless jacket.)

Totally polite to me, and I was polite to him. Now that is nothing new with me, I tend to be polite to everyone, just my nature.

Well guess what? Warning ticket! Man that saved me a bundle.

Of course I had my McDonald sausage biscuit in my lap (yes.. eating while driving) and coffee. On my way to visit. He figured that out.

Now that's Texas cops. He was a city cop to and he could have, quite rightly, gave me a big ticket.

Anyway here in Texas, you keep your nose clean, don't act like a you-know-what, and be a strait talker, and you will be fine.

And slow down in work zones!

Deaf

 

[WestKentucky]

My high number of stops came mainly in college where I had at least 25 grand in a 2500 dollar blazer. Lowered, stereo system, 20" wheels when that was a new cool thing, and I drove my truck to shows regularly. I firmly believe that a lot of those stops were just to look at the rig since I never had to identify myself in a few of them. The one rough week I had started with a noise violation (yeah, I was that kid) when I rattled a cops windows as I drove by him with my 5 thousand dollar stereo system blasting Johnny Cash through "the hood". That was a felony stop as I apparently had been running from the police all over town (cops lie too)...pulled over IN MY DRIVEWAY. I was out of the truck before the cops lights were on or he was in the driveway behind me. Screaming at me from being his glock 22 to get on the ground. After I called him a few colorful names he thanked me for resisting arrest and assaulting an officer to which I asked him to remove the cuffs so I could make him a bit less of a liar...long story short backup arrived and was trying to get dad back in the house. Dad knew the backup officer very well and knew immediately that it was all trumped up BS and he did turn me loose with instructions to sell the stereo or have it seized as evidence next time we met under similar circumstances. I was truly harassed for the next week or two with the liar cop following me all over town, pulling me over for doing 33 in a 35...finally got a lawyer involved and a conference call between mayor, police chief and district attorney cleared up my issues. I have since learned not to drive vehicles that draw so much attention. Several other friends from that show truck crowd had a lot of stops too for various things, but my felony stop is the cream of the crop in BS stops.

 

[TRX]

I got pulled over a few months ago. Arkansas is a must-inform state, so I just handed over my DL and CHCL together. The officer looked at them, asked if I get the gun with me, and asked that I not reach for it. Then he went back to his car to call in for warrants, came back up, and told me my left brake light was out and he was writing a fix-it notice for it. I sat quietly until he was done, wished him a peaceful shift, and drove off after he did.

> Blurting out that you have a gun will make a cop even more jumpy or assertive.

That's why I just handed the two licenses over together. Less chance of a misunderstanding. "Must inform" states vary as to exactly how and when you're supposed to inform; Arkansas is a bit peculiar in that it requires a verbal notice. If the officer hadn't asked if I had the gun with me, I would have had to tell him.

 

[Old Dog]

There are lots and lots of law abiding American citizens that are frequently detained and/or searched by LEOs.

Well, sure ... those that are chronic speeders, don't function check their car's lights/signals on a regular basis, those who can't seem to find that lever that turns on turn signals and those who drive erratically between 1:30 a.m. and 4:30 a.m. Most of the rest of us can go years without getting pulled over ...

I've always found it works well to keep my proof of insurance card and registration in one of those little pocket dealies that you can strap on the visor. Saves moving around too much between the glove box or center console and allows one to keep the hands in view.

If I have one tip for the OP, I'd suggest not trying to make conversation, especially asking something such as where/who the officer's back-up is ... I always wondered what was going on in someone's head when they started talking too much during a traffic stop and occasionally got suspicious (pulling over someone who's tweaking is always interesting -- sometimes a solid stream of random chatter).

 

[jimbo555]

The look of your vehicle definitely has a lot to do with getting pulled over. Back in the 70's I had a old ford falcon, when driving down the interstate I was passing a firebird trans am as we both went by a parked state trooper. Sure enough here comes the trooper racing behind us lights on. I expected to be pulled over but it was the trans am that got pulled over. My falcon was invisible in those days. Too many muscle cars on the road at the time.

 

[Old Dog]

I can say from experience that if you are a middle-aged white dude with gray hair and glasses, driving a 1984 white 4-door Buick Century, you are absolutely invisible to all traffic cops (unless you're in the hood at 2:00 a.m. idling at a corner trying to buy drugs). I hated that car (gift from grandma) but I sure never drew any attention in it ...

 

[corrosionate]

Yeah I get pulled over all the time. Usually I'm hauling ass. If I'm up front, honest and respectful to the officer, there's no problem. I still get a ticket, cus im usually going 20+ over. But I figure that's fair. Just did 2 yrs probation for that crap. Had to get a lawyer and spend some bucks to keep my license, but it's a small price to pay for the extra 7 minutes of sleep every morning ;-)

 

[Comrade Mike]

That was a lot of words to say "nothing of interest happened". You got a warning and got to go about your way. Call it a win!

 

[MedWheeler]

I was rear-ended five nights ago. The vehicle that hit me was totaled. Within two minutes of us (drivers involved) getting out of our vehicles, a marked unit pulled up.

The officer conducted the investigation, securing information from both of us, as well as the other driver's one passenger. There were no injuries apparent at the time.

The total time spent by me at that scene with the officer present was probably 20 minutes. At no point did he become aware I had two firearms on my person (I had just gotten off from my PT pizza delivery gig, and had both my carry piece and my "console piece" on me.)

 

[short barrel]

Stopped 50times? Good grief.

 

[JVaughn]

+1 RustyShackleford
I answer only questions asked that are relevant and proper. I never volunteer information.

Remember, police officers are your employees, not your superiors. Be respectful and minimal as possible.

 

[gamestalker]

I've experienced a few situations like what you did over the years, most without incidence.

But the one thing I do as soon as the LEO is within ear shot of me, and even if it requires that I interrupt him, I make sure he hears me tell him that I have a loaded weapon. I don't just awkwardly blurt it out, but instead I start out by gaining the LEO's attention, "Officer, please excuse me for a moment, but before we continue, I would like to make you aware that I have a loaded firearm on my left hip, glove box, under the seat, or where ever it may be. I do it this way cause one time when I got pulled over the cop got a but nasty with me, cause as he said, I let him go through his entire first contact presentation before letting him know I was armed, but that's Arizona law.

GS