My House Got Broken Into

[MagnumDweeb]

So yeah, I left the house at roughly 2:00 p.m. on a sunday and got home a little after six just in time for fiancee to pull in. As we walked towards the porch (we park in the back for convenience) I noticed the porch bathroom door was open (Doh forgot to lock it, I've never had to lock my door before and we're remote so I should have known better).

I pulled my Rossi 462 out and went room clearance mode as my fiancee got on the phone with 911 (I shouldn't have gone in the house till the police arrived now that I look back on it). Everything looked fine at first. My bedroom door was still locked so I breathed a sigh of relief (I have a 500lb gun safe, it's not bolted in because it's my dad's house).

Then checked the rest of the house and the only things missing we're an old PS2 I don't use and the Xbox360 I bought for my fiancee's birthday a couple of years ago. Still sucks, still ouches, yes I have renter's insurance but the claim would be so small as not to bother. Luckily I had the serial number saved in my yahoo mail (will all my guns' serial numbers and computers).

So I got angry, wanted to go and get the biggest meanest pit bull I could find (at first). Then talked to my dad and he talked me out of it (expecting a dog to pull guard duty is unfair to the dog). Then we talked alarm systems.

I told him I needed a few minutes to process all this. Then I remembered an ad I read in Shotgun News forever ago and remembered the whole tear gas anti-theft bomb. Turns out its pepper spray (found a company, talked to the rep [think he is the owner]). And elected to get a few alarm system tied ones and some manual ones that aren't titled to alarm system.

Here's the youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MFohffLTLA.

Here's their website - http://www.burglarbomb.com/.

Over $200 you get free shipping. I called my dad up to let him know I was doing a few alarm system tied ones and a few manual ones.

Yeah I could put my vehicle elsewhere and try and catch the intruder but we've seen in the news that that looks really bad. Plus I work sixty plus hours a week most weeks. So I wanted an alarm system and I wanted something to add a bit "you keep trying this you'll keep getting pepper sprayed."

Then my fiancee felt scared and wanted to keep a gun full time and we decided that I would go ahead and pay for it (she's wanted to hold out and pay for it herself but between her saving for a new car and then repairing her current one, and her dental work, she's never felt comfortable putting the money out and just waited on it).

Then she wanted to pick out a gun. Well I bought an XDS in .45 acp, last year, so she could take it after we got married (over a year later) and if she didn't like it, no big deal. Well she didn't like it but she fell in love with my Rossi 462. Now the 462 is hers (I've had it for four plus years so I don't think I have to worry about the ATF). The XDS is mine and we're going to the range tomorrow. She feels she needs to have the Rossi on her when I'm not home and I can't argue with her.

I got a Kel-Tec P3AT a few months ago and it's been through 200 rounds without a problem and I've carried it as a go anywhere gun and BUG when I've carried a semi-auto.

So it sucks, I'm glad I have my gun safe (I also have storage unit for guns because I have that many and I have $8,000 worth of insurance on it), I'm being proactive, working to fortify the house with an active but legal deterrent. And yet I still feel deflated.

I don't like this feeling but maybe this is the cheap lesson I've had to pay to keep my doors locked and get a security system. I like the burglar bomb idea and after talking with my fiancee we both agreed that when we have kids it would be nice to have them for when I'm on the road (I travel to other states for arbitrations) in case someone breaks in. She could possibly then run the kids to the master bedroom (we'd have to drill this so they're prepped) and grab the gun in the master bathroom while she's on the phone with 911.

If the scumbag(s) keep coming, then there's no way to deny that she felt her and the kids' lives were in danger and she had to fill them with a pound or two of led (that's a lot of shots from a .357 lol).

Well that's my catharsis. I hope someone else reads this and preps before it happens to them.

Si vis pacem, para bellum (I think that's how it goes).

So now I'm fortifying the house

 

[kcofohio]

Sorry to hear of your house being defiled. I have never had that happen here, so I don't know what you're going through.

It looks like your planning this out proactively. You would want to make sure everyone in your house and those close to you understands, to prevent any unwanted accidents or close calls.

Example, someone goes outside and and you or girlfriend thinks everyone is inside. Then the door expectantly opens, ... split second decisions/reactions.

Maybe this is already in your planning. Just wanted to point it out.

 

[Sam1911]

<Moved to ST&T, where it will probably be most instructive.>

So sorry to hear this! A traumatic experience, and a bitter kind of teachable moment.

Very glad to hear there wasn't much of value out in the open that an (obviously) hurried and opportunistic thief could grab. Something must have had him/them pretty spooked, for him/them not to dig any harder to find valuables.

 

[Sam Cade]

Sicus Pacus Parabellum (I think that's how it goes).

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

 

[Valkman]

expecting a dog to pull guard duty is unfair to the dog

I don't get this, dogs are GREAT to have as a deterrence. Guarding the house is the most natural thing they do. Please explain.

 

[xxjumbojimboxx]

I don't get this, dogs are GREAT to have as a deterrence. Guarding the house is the most natural thing they do. Please explain.

So I worked at an alarm company for three years. As management, I heard ALL of the stories.

Many break ins are done by people who know the victim. This makes your dog inadequate, unless you keep a tenacious jerk for a dog, which most of us do not for liability purposes. If it is indeed a random encounter, a barking dog does have a *chance* of deterring a would be thief. But most of these guys who are doing this kind of stuff are not afraid of a house pet.

Alarm systems don't do much either. They make a lot of noise, and the cops come if they don't have anything else to do. Its usually bottom priority. I used to get so many calls from angry customer saying how their alarm went off and they never got police response. The noise though, will let a burglar know that they have limited time and they need to get in and get out quickly. At which point they will statistically go for the master bedroom for things like jewelry, and the living room for electronics.

If you have an alarm system, make sure its monitored via cellular network, phone and broadband cables can be cut.

Your yard sign will not stop a burglar who wants what's in your house, It is however a decent deterrent for the random break ins. Why bother with a house that has a system over one that doesn't.

Here's what I know, the best way to keep your stuff yours is to have safe heavy enough that it couldn't be carried away, bolted to the floor. This will buy you TIME...

Have a surveillance system. They don't stop crooks, but they certainly help catch them.

Make sure your alarm systems alarm is audible from the outside. (this is a practice many alarm companies have strayed away from) but the low decibel alarms of todays systems are barely noticeable from a house with closed doors. Put it in the attic. if the burglar knows your siren can be hears down the road, they wont be staying long.

just my couple of pennies, from someone who's seen it.

 

[krupparms]

Even if you use a mean dog, it can be killed to silence it. Those pepper gas bombs can also go off by accident or someone trying to get in & you could find your home full of pepper gass! Be ready with the fans! Otherwise I would say you are on the right path. It is a little unsettling to have your home broken into! Try to remember, this was done by a coward! Your being proactive will help you get thru this. Good luck! And stay prepared!

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

She could possibly then run the kids to the master bedroom (we'd have to drill this so they're prepped) and grab the gun in the master bathroom while she's on the phone with 911.

If the scumbag(s) keep coming, then there's no way to deny that she felt her and the kids' lives were in danger and she had to fill them with a pound or two of led (that's a lot of shots from a .357 lol).

So, you just posted on the internet the plan she is going to practice for how she is going to ensure she can claim she is in danger so she can shoot an intruder. Brilliant.

It's a shame that your house got broken into, but you may want to hold off on the knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Bobson]

Ever been pepper sprayed, OP? It doesn't cause the "omg panic and run away" reaction many people expect. In fact, a "dry shot" of pepper spray (OC by itself) isn't extremely painful at all, at first. It takes a few moments to settle in, and is activated when water is applied (read: when the victim goes to wash it off). That's when the pain hits. But that's all it ever is - physical pain. I don't mean to say it's worthless; it certainly has it's uses. But the pain caused by it, while fairly extreme, is by no means debilitating. It's designed to get the attention of the victim when used by LE, which was it's original and still primary application - "Pay attention, this is step one. Step two will be worse if you don't relax." Or, if you will, "Say uncle."

Even more importantly, the last thing you want is to be blasting pepper spray around within the confines of your home, whether you're there or not. It doesn't exactly dissipate quickly. You could very well make the area unlivable for weeks.

If I were you, I'd focus on "target hardening" rather than finding ways to take revenge on a would-be burglar. After all, if the guy is already in your home, much of the damage is done (primarily psychological, which is the major player in being a victim of crime). At that point, hitting him with pepper spray isn't going to fix the situation. It could cause him to turn and leave, and not come back, or it could cause him to enrage, and destroy your belongings or even plot personal vengeance. I've seen it happen firsthand.

"Target hardening" is the idea that you could make your home a less appealing target - high risk, low reward. There's a ton of information online about it, much of that here on THR. I apologize if you already know about it; just thought I'd try and help.

Sorry to hear about your experience. Hope it was an isolated incident.

 

[45_auto]

Don't keep any gas for your lawnmower in your garage. A while back a local burglar here got hit by one of those pepper spray bombs, and according to him all it did was make him mad enough to throw gas around the house and burn it down.

 

[MedWheeler]

Jorg Nysgerrig writes this:

So, you just posted on the internet the plan she is going to practice for how she is going to ensure she can claim she is in danger so she can shoot an intruder. Brilliant

..to this:

She could possibly then run the kids to the master bedroom (we'd have to drill this so they're prepped) and grab the gun in the master bathroom while she's on the phone with 911.

If the scumbag(s) keep coming, then there's no way to deny that she felt her and the kids' lives were in danger and she had to fill them with a pound or two of led (that's a lot of shots from a .357 lol).

I don't get the disdain. Is this not a commonly-accepted and taught strategy, to hunker down in a "safe room" and call it in?

Of course one should feel threatened once that "safe room" entrance is breached, right?

I don't see in the quoted text anything to make me feel the OP and his lady are "seeking to find an excuse to shoot an intruder." My only change would be to adjust the "fill them with a pound or two of led [sic]" to simply "fire."

What I do see is an understanding of a commonly-taught strategy, and the need to make sure all involved are familiar with it...

 

[Trent]

OK .... on the security system.

#1: The first thing most people do after they get robbed is think about putting in a security system. (Why not before? This is known as "security after the fact", which isn't security at all.)

#2: This first thing most people do after they get robbed who have a security system is wonder why the cops didn't get there in time.


I was in your shoes in my early 20's. Girl left me, took the kids, was living alone and in a 'sloppy' part of my life. Came home one day to find the back door kicked in. The only thing missing was the jar of change on top of the refrigerator (maybe $100? I used cash exclusively back then and collected a fair bit of coinage.)

Security system didn't even go off as the first motion detector was in the dining room, and I didn't drill the doors for reed switches as it was a rental house. And, even if it had, the kid who stole the change was smart enough to cut the dang phone line before kicking in the door (in broad daylight..)

Cops didn't do anything. So I went around poking at neighbors thinking it was a local kid who took the change, described the jar it was in (somewhat unique), and told them to let me know if they found it. All denied their kids had done anything wrong, but ONE of them must have found the jar and punished their kid.

I think this because the very next day after going around asking questions all *four* tires on my Camaro Z28 were cut. I think a parent found the jar, punished the kid, and the kid snuck out and "got even" that night.

With the Pirelli tires I had on the car costing a half of a months pay ($1200-ish at the time), that hurt a lot more than the change. Not only did I miss a day off work (no transportation), have to pay for a tow, new tires, etc, it also set me behind on bills. Living paycheck to paycheck as most young males do, I found myself in deep trouble after another unrelated incident cost me some money. (Living slightly beyond my means didn't help.)

Two months after that door was kicked in and the change was stolen, my financial situation had snowballed and I had gotten far enough behind that my vehicle was repossessed, and I damn near lost my job over it. Got punished for missing work too much, and had time off work to "straighten things out" (which didn't help), and I lost my rental place.

Picking myself back up from that was difficult, since it pretty much hit the reset button on my life & career, and it still amazes me to this day, how that kicked in door snowballed in to something much bigger than it started out to be.

The life lesson here is don't make your knee jerk reaction so big as to dig yourself a deeper hole. Buying extra guns, stretching your income to try to do "more" to protect what you have, can easily COST you what you have.

My advice? Learn how to deal with home invasion.

Take an NRA personal protection in the home course. It's about the best "how to" course I've seen on defending your home and setting it up so that it's more difficult for intruders to do what they came to do; or discourage them from doing it in the first place.

Anyway.. hope this helps, been down the road you are on before and it sucks to have your privacy and sanctum violated. Hope it works out for you; although with online auctions it's harder for police to track down stolen goods than it used to be when pawn shops were the big outlet for bad guys. Hopefully the guys that robbed you are stupid and get caught before someone gets hurt.

-T

 

[Trent]

I don't get the disdain. Is this not a commonly-accepted and taught strategy, to hunker down in a "safe room" and call it in?

Of course one should feel threatened once that "safe room" entrance is breached, right?

I don't see in the quoted text anything to make me feel the OP and his lady are "seeking to find an excuse to shoot an intruder." My only change would be to adjust the "fill them with a pound or two of led [sic]" to simply "fire."

What I do see is an understanding of a commonly-taught strategy, and the need to make sure all involved are familiar with it...

Instructors also teach in NRA PPITH and other home defense courses to be mindful of what you say and how you say it.

He was fine up to this line:

If the scumbag(s) keep coming, then there's no way to deny that she felt her and the kids' lives were in danger and she had to fill them with a pound or two of led (that's a lot of shots from a .357 lol).

A) you only shoot to stop a threat (think that part is OK)

B) you only shoot so long as the threat IS a threat (shooting more than necessary can change the outcome from justified homicide to straight up murder; e.g. if the bad guy starts to flee, surrenders, falls down unconscious and you put one to the head for good measure, etc.)

C) Your predisposition matters a GREAT deal following a shoot (questionable or not), and public posts can be submitted as evidence.

E.g. "You picked the wrong rec-room, sucker! HAHA!" within ear shot of a witness, not having family trained to know how to deal with police afterwards (or the shooter themselves not knowing what to do), etc, can all turn a bad day in to a living nightmare of court trials and even jail time.

That's why in the post above I recommended getting standardized training for this. Not "Bob's backyard self defense class", but rather, something structured specifically around defending the home from intruders/attackers, which is nationally recognized, standardized, been taught for a long time, and taught by certified instructors.

Then if a shoot happens, not only did you take the right steps trying to prevent it, but you go about doing it the right way during AND after, *and* you have accredited training under your belt. That means one (or more) instructors you can call in to testify as expert witnesses, etc, if it does go to trial.

There is a heck of a lot more to it than just buying a gun and learning to shoot, thinking you'll be safe.

Think on this; If you are alone when it happens, there are no witnesses, no obvious physical signs of forced entry, and the only weapon the bad guy has is your very own kitchen knife, what will the police think? Did you lure someone in, kill them, and plant the evidence? What if there is back story behind you and that person (neighbor, someone you'd had bad dealings with, etc)?? It's your word against a dead mans at that point.

Somehow every gun owner at some point gets this mental image of being the hero who blows away a bad guy in their livingroom, proving that righteous armed men can be kings of their own castles.

But that mental image can be quickly dispelled by our legal system in the aftermath if ANYTHING makes a detective stop and go "hmm..... maybe all is not as it seems."

Taking training can help deal for the before, during, AND after. PPITH covers not just what to do, but what to expect; from legal ramifications, to emotional issues (PTSD), etc.

It's worth looking in to for the OP, so he doesn't end up living life paranoid as hell for the next X years.

 

[buck460XVR]

Sorry about the break-in. Sounds like you were a victim of opportunity.

(Doh forgot to lock it, I've never had to lock my door before and we're remote so I should have known better)

Sounds like they violated your space, but took a fairly small and easily replaceable part of your life. The fact that they took so little and did not trash the rest of the house sounds like amateurs and they were concerned about spending much time in the house.....or all they were after were the video games. You could have been nailed for a lot more. My concern would be that the same kids might come back, like a raccoon that found the cat dish outside.

Locks slow or deter those types of burglars, as do dogs.....any dog. In rural areas, game cameras do a good job of covering the outside of one's house, especially if you do not have dogs. Since they are motion activated, only time they take a picture is when something walks by. Most are discrete and work in the dark. If it's the neighbor kids or someone local, they should be easy to identify. Cheap noise alarms work also with the type of burglar you had, but no so much on pros. As for the tear-gas bombs......I dunno, sounds like a good way to get your house trashed instead of just loosing a $200 video game.
As for entering the house before the police came.......judgement call. Just a good thing you got home before your fiance as she may have not been as observant and noticed anything was wrong before she walked in.

 

[Trent]

As for entering the house before the police came.......judgement call. Just a good thing you got home before your fiance as she may have not been as observant and noticed anything was wrong before she walked in.

In class I teach to always wait for the authorities, but I freely ignore that advice when it comes to my own house. Sure, authorities will be notified and told that the home owner is on site, armed, and entering the building. But I'm not waiting around for them. No way. At least on the inside of my home I am intimately familiar with the layout, where to find cover, and will have the upper hand. Out in the open, the odds are not nearly as good when there's more than one bad guy.

Response time where I live is upwards of 30 minutes (way out in the country). If I were to wait for the cops, not being able to cover every entrance, there's a very real possibility that the bad guys could leave through an entrance I'm not watching and potentially flank and ambush me to get away (only one road out of here..meaning if they flee they have to go THROUGH me. I'd rather be hunting than hunted.)

And fleeing myself to come back with the cops? Sorry, not built that way. If nothing else, there's 3 pups inside I care about, and a whole bunch of firearms that don't need to hit the black market. (I have a good safe, but every safe can be defeated with sufficient time.)

What's worse is bad guys who hit country homes around here traditionally travel in PACKS, of 4 to 6 armed people, and in the last couple of years have specifically targeted known firearm owners out in the country. They know police response time is slow and plan the stuff out elaborately, waiting for the man of the house to leave. They are not bashful about hitting homes where women / kids are whatsoever. It's a nasty scenario all the way around, particularly since I'm listed as a concealed carry instructor (everyone knows I have guns, no way to conceal the fact; yet another of my lessons I violate.)

Bottom line is we deal with our own around here. If wife is with me, she'll go round up a couple neighbors who are also armed, to watch the other exits as I go in. Agree on a phrase before you go in, to yell before coming back out, to let them know you are you when you come out, and not a bad guy.

Now, if you are in a city, and the response time is not bad (5 mins or so), might be better to be patient and wait it out. If the cops nail him, less legal trouble for you, than if you go in playing commando.

Moral of this segment of the story; I advise to wait for authorities to arrive, but also realize that every situation is unique. All I can offer is "best practices" but in the end we have to make up our own minds on the fly if and when it ever happens.

(Another factor weighing in to my decision - in Illinois we have MUCH stronger justified use of lethal force laws *in* our house, than *on* our property. I'm safer, legally, to be INSIDE if anything goes sideways, than I am standing on my driveway with my thumb up my you-know-what waiting for police to show up in a half hour... the OP being in Florida is in a different legal situation though, they have stronger laws OUTSIDE the home than we do here.)

 

[Charlie Horse]

Magnum, I hate hearing that this happened to you. The feeling of violation and helplessness cuts deeply. The good news is that you've survived it, and to quote the Church Lady "I'm still here..." I'm glad to hear that they didn't get more than they did.

Just remember that when planning security, take a deep breath and act from logic not emotion.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I don't get the disdain. Is this not a commonly-accepted and taught strategy, to hunker down in a "safe room" and call it in?

Between your own comment about his last few words and Trent's post #13, it pretty much nails my objections. Hunker down and call it in is a sound strategy. Posting that you plan to hunker down and call it in so you can "fill them with a pound or two of led" is pretty high up on the derp scale, especially when you finish it off with an "lol".

 

[Derry 1946]

(Another factor weighing in to my decision - in Illinois we have MUCH stronger justified use of lethal force laws *in* our house, than *on* our property. I'm safer, legally, to be INSIDE if anything goes sideways, than I am standing on my driveway with my thumb up my you-know-what waiting for police to show up in a half hour... the OP being in Florida is in a different legal situation though, they have stronger laws OUTSIDE the home than we do here.)

Legally safer to BE inside if the home is invaded, perhaps, but not likely legally (or otherwise) safer to GO inside and confront intruders.

It's one thing when you are already inside when a home intrusion occurs, but I would exercise caution before entering the home if you believe the intruder(s) is (are) already/still in there. I'm not an expert on the law of justification in the Land of Lincoln, but my training suggests to me that injecting oneself deeper into the fray is generally discouraged at common law.

Now, if my wife and kids are inside and I arrive home to evidence of foul play (a scenario some have mentioned), I'm going in. If I'm not sure where my wife and kids are, I'm going in. But if my whole family is safely outside with me, and I really believe there are intruders inside, I suspect my plan would be to call the police and keep my family a safe distance. Just one perspective.

 

[Trent]

Legally safer to BE inside if the home is invaded, perhaps, but not likely legally (or otherwise) safer to GO inside and confront intruders.

I'll cover Illinois in full after this; if only to demonstrate how subtle nuances in the laws of YOUR state might change things depending on situation. (It might not, too. IL is a strange bird.)

As far as "tactically sound", it depends on the home layout, how many entrances, etc. My particular home is a strange layout, I can enter from several potential ingress points (5, to be exact, not counting windows).

It's a damn hard house to sweep and clear in any organized fashion, but also equally hard to defend every ingress point at once. If the bad guys holed up it'd be a nightmare for the police to clear. Particularly if the bad guys cracked the safe and had access to my arms. (Wouldn't wish THAT entrance on anyone... also not going to starve them out, either, since there's 6 months of food and unlimited water supply in the vault too.)

Anyway the only goal I'd have on arriving to find a compromised home (once my family is safe), is "Stop them before they crack the vault and get to the firearms" Period.. (No further explanation should be required, you can draw your own conclusions or not).

Now on to the legal part...

It's one thing when you are already inside when a home intrusion occurs, but I would exercise caution before entering the home if you believe the intruder(s) is (are) already/still in there. I'm not an expert on the law of justification in the Land of Lincoln, but my training suggests to me that injecting oneself deeper into the fray is generally discouraged at common law.

Each state is different on this. The following is specific ONLY to Illinois, and included ONLY as a reference to how subtle interactions in the law can reveal unexpected boons. This is NOT legal advice. Seek a lawyer for that - this is merely reciting what I'm required to teach in my CCL classes.

Illinois law splits this in to three statutes -

* Use of force in defense of person
* Use of force in defense of other property
* Use of force in defense of dwelling

Use of force in defense of Person would be the most common fallback on a self defense encounter. (Emphasis added)

(720 ILCS 5/7-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-1)
Sec. 7-1. Use of force in defense of person.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.
(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.
(Source: P.A. 93-832, eff. 7-28-04.)

(All three statues include the same wording for part (B), so I won't copy it again).

So as you can see part 1, defense of person, allows you to elevate to lethal force if you are protecting yourself or another from death or serious bodily injury, OR you are preventing the commission of a forcible felony (again, there is a very specific and narrow legal definition on which crimes are on the Forcible Felony list.)

Defense of property is very similar:

Sec. 7-3. Use of force in defense of other property.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property (other than a dwelling) or personal property, lawfully in his possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his immediate family or household or of a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Similar to defense of person, BUT this ONLY includes the "prevention of a forcible felony", which has a specific and narrow legal definition. (It is assumed that it defaults to "defense of person" if the person committing the forcible felony attacks YOU after you intervene.)

Now we get to use of force in defense of Dwelling (which is relevant here), and it gets a bit strange.

720 ILCS 5/7-2) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-2)
Sec. 7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's unlawful entry into or attack upon a dwelling. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if:
(1) The entry is made or attempted in a violent, riotous, or tumultuous manner, and he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent an assault upon, or offer of personal violence to, him or another then in the dwelling, or
(2) He reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony in the dwelling.

So if your family is in the dwelling, and in danger (you see a gunman in the window, hear screaming for help, hear gunshots, etc), game on. Go fast and hard (and hope your well trained wife doesn't put two to center mass as you bust through the door to help.... )

If you aren't home at the time the entry is made (and thus don't qualify for protection under (1), if you read the statute, the second half of the statute is split with an "or", and applies seperately. It does NOT include "then in the dwelling" clause. The reason I say that legally the statute fits you stronger, is that we see that the litmus test for use of force in defending your *home* drop from a "forcible felony" down to a mere "felony."

ANY felony. The entire range of felony charges in IL applies. And that list is HUGE.

So if you are defending your person (or another person), you have to be in fear of death or serious bodily injury, *or* intervening to prevent a forcible felony.

In defense of "other property", ONLY a forcible felony can justify lethal force.

Whereas in your home, a simple felony is sufficient to justify an intervention with lethal force.

Which is why I say you are on stronger legal ground IN your dwelling than you are anywhere else. If you fail litmus test 1 (were you in fear of death or serious bodily injury), and litmus test 2 (no forcible felony), you may still pass litmus test 3 (preventing a felony). Pass any ONE of those and you are able to claim use of justified force, from a legal standing.

Illinois lethal force laws are surprisingly strong - for a state that leans so far to the left. (Trivia: That section (B) which protects people from civil damages was actually sponsored by Obama, during his stint in the IL senate. Before that we had NO civil liability protection in use of force!)

Obviously you are MUCH better off if you meet MULTIPLE items above, at once. (E.g. defending your home, protecting yourself from death or serious bodily injury, AND preventing a forcible felony all in one shot).

But legally you gain extra traction for each of those, and that legal traction is strongest - by far - inside your home.

Now, if my wife and kids are inside and I arrive home to evidence of foul play (a scenario some have mentioned), I'm going in. If I'm not sure where my wife and kids are, I'm going in. But if my whole family is safely outside with me, and I really believe there are intruders inside, I suspect my plan would be to call the police and keep my family a safe distance. Just one perspective.

That's the best plan, and I teach the default response to be escape to safety, evade conflict, call the authorities.

Like I said at my place police response time is 30 minutes. I'm on my own until then. After my family is safe, keeping the arms in my vault from falling in to criminals hands is a serious priority. One that I'd lay my life down for, if I had to. (That's a personal decision we make for ourselves.)

Other people's situations are different and by DEFAULT, I train my students to escape and call the authorities.

Doesn't mean I have to follow my own advice.

 

[Trent]

Too long didn't read?

That was a REAL damn long winded answer and dissection of "if bad guys are in my house, do I go in and defend it."

In my opinion:

Best practice is "no" unless there are compelling reason(s) for you do to so.

Be aware that you are effectively an entry team of 1 and facing unknown numbers of bad guys and firepower - a definite disadvantage. So ultimately... the answer is "it depends, on the circumstances, your state laws, and the level of risk you are willing to shoulder, up to and including loss of your own life."

Tactically, the odds STINK.

But specific conditions may COMPEL you, regardless of the odds and risk.

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

Be aware that you are effectively an entry team of 1 and facing unknown numbers of bad guys and firepower - a definite disadvantage.

This is probably one of the most important takeaways. Clearing a house effectively is not a trivial matter and considered dangerous even for experience teams. A single person switching to "room clearance mode", even with substantial training, is putting themselves at great risk if there is any chance of encountering armed resistance.

 

[Trent]

This is probably one of the most important takeaways. Clearing a house effectively is not a trivial matter and considered dangerous even for experience teams. A single person switching to "room clearance mode", even with substantial training, is putting themselves at great risk if there is any chance of encountering armed resistance.

This is compounded by the fact that bad guys often travel in packs.

Just for general consideration (not directed at Jorg):

I've told this story on here before so this is the short form. *5* armed intruders hit one of my neighbors specifically going after guns. They waited until the man left for work (3rd shift), and went in when his wife & daughters were asleep. (They had inside info, obviously; loose lips and all that.)

That incident *dramatically* shifted the way I viewed home defense. Revolvers got put away, for starters. There were other changes; training my wife and kids how to shoot to a certain level of proficiency. Examining 'hard points' that can provide some form of cover in strategic places. Etc. Long list of changes beyond that.. 5 on one odds are not readily survivable. Having 6 trained shooters in the house ensures if I go down first, the others can still protect themselves effectively. I may be dead, but I've done what I did to prepare them, and hopefully they live.

But it also points out a serious danger in going in to your house if you come home and find the front door kicked open. You might just be facing one bad guy. Or 5 bad guys. You don't know.

1 on 1 odds on an abrupt close range encounter are bad enough. If you find yourself face to face with a bad guy PLUS three or four cronies with him, well... training only takes you so far.

Like I said there could be reasons that COMPEL one to throw caution to the wind and "go for it" - infinite scenarios after all. Some you can plan for ('wife in danger'), some you cannot.

One final note (someone raised it above); don't forget if DO throw caution to the wind and go in despite the profound risks to your personal well being... do a careful check of your surroundings FIRST. Chances are there's one or two lurking in the bushes watching for cops. Last thing you want is bad guys in front AND behind you. Training won't even matter at that point. You lose by default.

Ok I'm out of subject matter material here now. Calling my (limited) knowledge on this issue expired, and I'm checking out.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Your house doesn't have to be Fort Knox. It just needs to be a less inviting target than other houses nearby.

We've done any number of threads on 'layers of security' and hardening your house here in ST&T. Those things should be your primary concern ... not 'getting even' with would-be burglars by arranging a nasty (even if legal) reception for them. Personally I'd hate to have to clean up after one of those things goes off. Especially if the person it nailed was me (or my literal absent-minded professor wife) in a moment of inattention.

OPSEC (operational security) is your best protection, if you have anything worth stealing. Loose lips DO sink ships, and the 'thug grapevine' is always abuzz with tips on potentially lucrative targets. And it gets fed either deliberately or by accident from all sorts of unexpected sources. You never know who is talking about you - or your stuff. Doing things like cutting down the boxes the new big screen TV and its attendant sound system came in to an anonymous trash bag of cardboard scraps before putting them on the curb should be a given.

And having watchful suspicious neighbors is a help too - and you get those by being one.

I know the feeling of violation that comes from incidents like this, and the emotions it can foster. but it's important to control the emotional response and work on rational practical ways to help keep your home and family safe.

 

[NOMI WASP]

I read an article where burglars were asked questions about home invasions. Every single person questioned stated, If they seen a dog they would move on to another house.

My dog is 125lbs of pure muscle and the guy who watches our house when we are on vacation can't even use the front door cause we are affraid he may attack, so he uses the garage.

When that huge head pops up at the window, trust me, they will think twice about coming in and will probably choose a easier target. Even a little dog draws attention to your house and is very good at waking you up if they hear something. I would take a dog over a security system any day.

And I understand there is no perfect protection other than the good LORD above.

 

[Trent]

Some dogs are better deterrents than others. My wolfhound is a great example.

I'm 6' tall and 185 lbs, for scale.

His fangs are about 1.5" long, his neck is stronger than my torso, his legs stronger than my legs, and when someone he doesn't know walks in to the house I better be there.

He's *highly* protective of our family, as most Irish Wolfhounds are. If he ever felt the need to attack someone to defend us, it would be over in about 2 seconds.

(He's incredibly gentle around our kids, too. Just a big baby.)