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Centurian22
Member
Don't want the lightweight but found the completed upper with the government profile barrel. Was a little surprised it was $50-$100 more than the parts but that makes sense for the labor of assembling.
My Itemized List for a first AR Build.
- Thread starter Centurian22
- Start date
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jakk280rem
Member
Can I ask then, if you are not getting the lightweight barrel, then why get the KMR? The primary advantage of the KMR over other rails is its low weight. Why pay the $100+ premium for the exotic magnesium rail and then install the boat anchor barrel. That heavy profile was designed to allow the use of an M203 grenade launcher. And the midlength gas system resides right where the groove would be.
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Centurian22
Member
I was never going for an ultralight build, just was going to save weight where I could. I'm now leaning more towards the Samson Evolution Keymod Rail 15" 13.4oz for $205. I've seen videos of how much flex / wobble there is in the light barrels and how quickly they can heat up / string shots from heating up. I'm just trying to strike a relative balance between all the features I want. Eventually I may pursue a 20" heavy barrel upper or possibly try an ultra light I'm not sure but for now I think this build will meet all that I want or need from it.
I only paid $729 for my KMR upper with the ELW barrel.
I also only paid $25 for the Gunfighter Mod 3 charging handle...but it was a training one
I'll agree you aren't going for lightweight if you're willing to go with a KMR that is half a pound heavier...that is a lot to have in front of the receiverCenturian22 said:
That is why I went with the BCM Enhanced Light Weight barrel. You're losing the weight by their going to a straight taper, not a thinner barrel.
But, you're right, it is your project and you should put what you want on it. I just like to take advantage of the latest advances available...but mine is built to be a training rifle (classes) and maybe for 3-gun competition
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Centurian22
Member
You've gotten me curious enough, I'll now at least research the "ELW" barrel a little more. How is the accuracy, heating up, and stringing of shots of your rig in your experience. Also carbine or mid length (mid I would assume)?
I got a complete upper, so it is a mid-length gas system.
Most of my shooting has been sighting it in and trying it out for consistency on the Army Qualification Test (AQT) on reduced targets at 25 yards, before zeroing it in at 50 yards for a 220 yard zero. So my longest string has been 10 rounds, but I don't take much time between shots...it is just a habit from shooting handguns
The barrel will get hot enough that I'm glad I have a handstop to keep my finger off of it, but I haven't noticed stringing. After I zeroed it at 50 yards from the prone, I stood up and fired five rounds into ~ 2" in a nice cluster
Most of my shooting has been sighting it in and trying it out for consistency on the Army Qualification Test (AQT) on reduced targets at 25 yards, before zeroing it in at 50 yards for a 220 yard zero. So my longest string has been 10 rounds, but I don't take much time between shots...it is just a habit from shooting handguns
The barrel will get hot enough that I'm glad I have a handstop to keep my finger off of it, but I haven't noticed stringing. After I zeroed it at 50 yards from the prone, I stood up and fired five rounds into ~ 2" in a nice cluster
ElToro
Member
nice build up. post pics when shes built.
I've had an extra LMT lower around for almost 8 years now, so i ordered up parts this weekend. my budget was to keep it under 1K all in. Prices are paid per vendor, delivered, w/tax if applicable
$125 LMT lower
$610 Colt 6720 1/7 pencil barrel flat top upper complete with BCG and charging handle and BUIS.
$80 CMMG LPK and bullet button ( keep it legal in PRK, local gun shop)
$185 Magpul CTR stock milspec, MOE grip, ASAP sling point and polymer trigger guard; H buffer, spring, and milspec buffer tube
I came in right on budget. i think getting quality parts from day 1 will help keep the value up if i have to sell in the future, not planning to though of course.
i just need help installing the LPK springs, i have an AR geek buddy who has the wrenches and lives and breathes this stuff.
I've had an extra LMT lower around for almost 8 years now, so i ordered up parts this weekend. my budget was to keep it under 1K all in. Prices are paid per vendor, delivered, w/tax if applicable
$125 LMT lower
$610 Colt 6720 1/7 pencil barrel flat top upper complete with BCG and charging handle and BUIS.
$80 CMMG LPK and bullet button ( keep it legal in PRK, local gun shop)
$185 Magpul CTR stock milspec, MOE grip, ASAP sling point and polymer trigger guard; H buffer, spring, and milspec buffer tube
I came in right on budget. i think getting quality parts from day 1 will help keep the value up if i have to sell in the future, not planning to though of course.
i just need help installing the LPK springs, i have an AR geek buddy who has the wrenches and lives and breathes this stuff.
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Centurian22
Member
Well bugger! Now after looking and reading around I'm undecided about the light weight vs standard/govt profile barrels. Which if I go with the light weight barrel will then be more reason / justification for the KMR rail agin. All together barrels and rails it's "only" a difference of 9-10oz (6oz diff in the rail 7.7-13.4oz and from what I could find a 3-4oz difference in a barrel between light and govt). I eat steaks larger than 9-10oz, a good drink of liquid is going to weigh more than 9-10oz, and this isn't a designated patrol or hunting gun to where I will be walking miles and miles for hours and hours carrying it. Even if it were my hunting gun, my bolt gun weighs 7-8lbs. So this all really just leaves me with accuracy (though I have found no conclusive evidence either way that one is more or less accurate, heavier should equal less harmonic vibration and potentially more accuracy), heating / cooling (light weights seem to do both faster), balance, and manipulation.
As much as I would like to, its not likely I'll get involved with any competition any time soon so the balance / manipulation importance is lessened. I have read many people who have been very happy when they first tried a lightweight barrel and are now 'building more light weight rigs".
Ahhhhhh the more I try to get somewhere with all this the more it seems to all be a wash.
Eltoro: sounds like a nice rig at a good price.
As much as I would like to, its not likely I'll get involved with any competition any time soon so the balance / manipulation importance is lessened. I have read many people who have been very happy when they first tried a lightweight barrel and are now 'building more light weight rigs".
Ahhhhhh the more I try to get somewhere with all this the more it seems to all be a wash.
Eltoro: sounds like a nice rig at a good price.
ugaarguy
Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
- Messages
- 13,828
Centurian, it's not the amount of weight per se, it's where the weight is. Even a few ounces out front dramatically changes how a rifle handles. I'd recommend you go to a gun store and handle as many AR type rifles as you can before committing to any single build path.
The dry lube coated upper is milspec now, but you'd be hard pressed to see that as a technical spec in a lot of suppliers. They can drop it because few know about it or demand it. It's a semi permanent treatment and it's to help the bolt carrier, not barrel extension. It makes less friction and keeps powder residue from sticking as much.
The Black River Tactical was reviewed over three years ago and the results posted on the ARP website. Little was known about muzzle devices then, less published. They don't claim recoil reduction, what is does do is throw all the gas forward, which does seem counterproductive. But again, it's an intermediate caliber rifle, not a hard kicking magnum. Getting less decibels at the eardrum was my goal, it delivers. What little perceived recoil it might add is buried in the 50% higher power level of the 6.8 barrel I installed.
If you look around, you'll find that nitrided parts are now leading edge. Sure, hammer forged is nice, when you can get it. That is largely going to be from PSA, as many others still button cut AR rifles as it's still spec. The FN factory has the hammer forge and supplies them, PSA seems to be a common source (even outlet.) If I had a choice between chrome lined hammer forged or button cut nitrided, I would still take the nitrided as it is a superior surface treatment and is documented to increase bullet speed plus has a lot more corrosion resistance and surface hardness. So, I got nitrided from ARP, along with a matching bolt carrier assembly.
I understand about having some concerns about the charging handle pin, that failure comes from competition use, not in the field. Left handers have been using the charging handle on the M16 for over 45 years without any accessory modification, and the service still issues it nearly the same as in 1963. It's really just window dressing to upgrade on a plinker/hunter, but that's up to the builder. They are cheap enough that owning a spare isn't a big deal.
A lot of options building an AR are basically trying to balance the costs vs what benefit is gained. The reality is that parts that aren't GI spec are going to cost more than the incremental improvement in performance. Specializing the construction to take advantage of some of them will certainly help toward that goal, but the downside it that it also takes away from doing other things. Spending more in some areas means spending less in others, too. At some point it all adds up, and you've begun to see that with "that will come later." Getting the foundation right is best, and the funny part is that later will come around and the priorities will have changed.
That thought process seems evidently ongoing. I researched by build for two years, and finished it three years ago. I've already reconsidered what furniture I now want, in an effort to lighten it up. What I wouldn't pay for then is now much more affordable, which is part of the issue. There are more things available now, but the overall rules are the same - get the parts that do what you want to do, don't worry about the cool factor or newness. Make it to work better for you where it needs to, and until a GI spec part fails, don't count them short.
The Black River Tactical was reviewed over three years ago and the results posted on the ARP website. Little was known about muzzle devices then, less published. They don't claim recoil reduction, what is does do is throw all the gas forward, which does seem counterproductive. But again, it's an intermediate caliber rifle, not a hard kicking magnum. Getting less decibels at the eardrum was my goal, it delivers. What little perceived recoil it might add is buried in the 50% higher power level of the 6.8 barrel I installed.
If you look around, you'll find that nitrided parts are now leading edge. Sure, hammer forged is nice, when you can get it. That is largely going to be from PSA, as many others still button cut AR rifles as it's still spec. The FN factory has the hammer forge and supplies them, PSA seems to be a common source (even outlet.) If I had a choice between chrome lined hammer forged or button cut nitrided, I would still take the nitrided as it is a superior surface treatment and is documented to increase bullet speed plus has a lot more corrosion resistance and surface hardness. So, I got nitrided from ARP, along with a matching bolt carrier assembly.
I understand about having some concerns about the charging handle pin, that failure comes from competition use, not in the field. Left handers have been using the charging handle on the M16 for over 45 years without any accessory modification, and the service still issues it nearly the same as in 1963. It's really just window dressing to upgrade on a plinker/hunter, but that's up to the builder. They are cheap enough that owning a spare isn't a big deal.
A lot of options building an AR are basically trying to balance the costs vs what benefit is gained. The reality is that parts that aren't GI spec are going to cost more than the incremental improvement in performance. Specializing the construction to take advantage of some of them will certainly help toward that goal, but the downside it that it also takes away from doing other things. Spending more in some areas means spending less in others, too. At some point it all adds up, and you've begun to see that with "that will come later." Getting the foundation right is best, and the funny part is that later will come around and the priorities will have changed.
That thought process seems evidently ongoing. I researched by build for two years, and finished it three years ago. I've already reconsidered what furniture I now want, in an effort to lighten it up. What I wouldn't pay for then is now much more affordable, which is part of the issue. There are more things available now, but the overall rules are the same - get the parts that do what you want to do, don't worry about the cool factor or newness. Make it to work better for you where it needs to, and until a GI spec part fails, don't count them short.
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Centurian22
Member
Ugaarguy: great sugestion, I will definitely try to make the rounds to my LGS's and get a true handling feel for some light vs govt (and while I'm there likely med and heavy's as well if possible) barrel profiles.
Tirod:
What is the "ARP" page? As I would like to know more about the BRT.
Dag Nabit just as I think I'm making progress and getting things figured out and narrowed down. Now you've gone and made it where I have to research something else now, the nitrided barrels (I say this half jokingly lol). I know technological advances are more perplexing every day but I am quite skeptical of a 'mere finish' being able to out-perform a 'superior' barrel forming process. In my uneducated mind, one method simply covers flaws while the other forms the steel molecules in a better way. However I value your input and must now attempt to learn more about the nitriding process and how it produces a better surface than hammer forging. If I have found the right page (http://ar15performance.com/barrels) I'm only seeing "Melonite Treated" not nitrided. I'll be doing research on all of it.
You make many great points about the build process. I may give it a rest for a while, then start over with a fresh mind to see what I come up with. Alternatively (as I'm so obsessed now that it would be hard to step away) I may work at a build with different goals. This build was "everything I think I want" I may try your "good foundation" idea with less expensive accessories to allow more for upgrading in the future after I've got hands on and rounds down range.
Thank you all for your continued input.
Tirod:
What is the "ARP" page? As I would like to know more about the BRT.
Dag Nabit just as I think I'm making progress and getting things figured out and narrowed down. Now you've gone and made it where I have to research something else now, the nitrided barrels (I say this half jokingly lol). I know technological advances are more perplexing every day but I am quite skeptical of a 'mere finish' being able to out-perform a 'superior' barrel forming process. In my uneducated mind, one method simply covers flaws while the other forms the steel molecules in a better way. However I value your input and must now attempt to learn more about the nitriding process and how it produces a better surface than hammer forging. If I have found the right page (http://ar15performance.com/barrels) I'm only seeing "Melonite Treated" not nitrided. I'll be doing research on all of it.
You make many great points about the build process. I may give it a rest for a while, then start over with a fresh mind to see what I come up with. Alternatively (as I'm so obsessed now that it would be hard to step away) I may work at a build with different goals. This build was "everything I think I want" I may try your "good foundation" idea with less expensive accessories to allow more for upgrading in the future after I've got hands on and rounds down range.
Thank you all for your continued input.
ugaarguy
Member
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
- Messages
- 13,828
Centurian, chrome lining simply bonds a layer of hard chrome to the interior of the bbl surface. Nitriding is the short name for Controlled Liquid Ionic Nitriding (CLIN). It's not a mere treatment. It's a nitrogen salt bath process that gives steel parts tremendous surface hardness, smoothness, corrosion resistance, and wear resistance. AAC's testing showed it gave their barrels three times the life of chrome lining, and produced no loss of accuracy because there is no thickness variation as with chrome lining. CLIN isn't just a "mere finish".
Melonite is CLI Nitriding. It's the same thing as Tennifer, Tufftride, QPQ, and ARCOR. They're all trade name for the CLIN process developed and patented by Durferrit GMBH - http://www.hef-group.com/index.php/en/nitriding.html.
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Centurian22
Member
One more thing I've noticed in my barrel comparison of light weight vs govt barrels is that there seem to be far fewer gas blocks in the .625 size than the .750 size. I'm also back to looking at the adjustable gas blocks as well. The concept seems very attractive especially for a reloader but so many have said they are an unneeded waste of money.
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Centurian22
Member
Awesome! That just saved me probably hours of 'foot work' in research! I will still be looking around for some info but that gives me the basics. I figured there was more to it that's why I had the quoted around 'mere finish'. I knew there were lots of choices in AR builds but I truly had no idea what I was getting myself into. It's both a dream and a nightmare all rolled up in one.
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Centurian22
Member
Tirod: thanks again for the info on Nitride barrels. I'm now looking at the Daniel Defense 18" 'S2W' profile mid gas CHF AND nitrided barrel for $289
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/49...mer-forged-nitride-finished-chrome-moly-black
I was really trying to stick to 16" barrels but I couldn't find any CHF mid 16" nitrided barrels under $350. Didn't like that the ARP 5.56 barrels were 5/8x24 threaded at the muzzle. I have updated my build in case anyone is still following this thread and has more guidance to offer. I greatly appreciate all of the input so far and it had helped me shape what should be a perfect build for me.
AR Build
Barrel:
$289 Daniel Defense 18" CHF Melonite
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/49...mer-forged-nitride-finished-chrome-moly-black
Hand guard:
$205 Samson Evolution Keymod 15"
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/28...ard-ar-15-aluminum-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Barrel Nut:
$9 BCM Barrel Nut
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=Barrel+Nut+AR15
Upper Receiver:
$60 Aero stripped upper
http://shop.doasales.net/AERO-PRECI...PER-RECEIVER-STRIPPED-AERO-UPPER-RECEIVER.htm
Ejection port cover assembly $6
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/review/product/list/id/723/category/323/
Forward assist $14
http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...parts/parts/ar15-forward-assist-assembly.html
Or:
$13
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/78...round-ar-15-lr-308-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Or:
$19
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-parts/forward-assist-assembly-prod26120.aspx
Low Profile gas block:
$45 BCM
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=BCM-LGB-.750
Or:
$33 Wilson
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/26...ide-diameter-steel-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Black Gas Tube:
$16 Spikes black melonite mid gas tube
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/gas-system-parts/gas-tubes/ar-15-m16-gas-tubes-prod44888.aspx
Bolt Carrier Group:
$179 BCM Full Auto shot peened BCG
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=BCM+Bolt+Carrier+Group+AUTO+MP
Charging Handle:
$70 BCM Ambi Gunfighter
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=BCM-GFH-Mod-A44-556AMBI
Lower Reciever:
$200 PSA Complete Lower Magpul STR Black
http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...ul-ctr-edition-foliage-no-magazine-1-2-1.html
Sights:
$86
Magpul Industries MBUS Generation II Sight Set Front & Rear Color BLACK by Magpul http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00817B2JW/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_mYeqtb1DMY4XS
Or:
$21 45degree flip ups:
AR15 AR 15 Front and Rear flip up 45 Degree Rapid Transition BUIS Backup Iron Sight by FieldSport
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007D3OBHK/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_lV-ptb03T5FJ0
Magazines:
$28 Black Window P-Mags (2X$14ea)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/23...5-223-remington-30-round?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Flash Hider:
$11 A2 flash hider + crush washer
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=Flash+Hider+A2
Or (Prefered/Upgrade):
$36 Yankee Hill Machine Annihilator flash hider
https://yhm.net/annihilator-flash-hider-5-56mm.html
Total: $1243 (w/ $14FA, $45LPGB, $86MBUS, $36YHM Annihilator)
Future Upgrades/Additions:
Yankee Hill Machine
$70 Slant muzzle brake.
https://yhm.net/5-56mm-slant-brake-comp.html
$29 Magpul BAD Lever
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/769721/magpul-bad-lever-extended-bolt-catch-ar-15-aluminum-matte
$25 Mako Magwell Grip
New Mako Grip Black Ar Rifles Mwg High Quality Excellent Performance Popular by Mako http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0048ZAVN4/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_1Mfqtb1C6ZW1J
$18 Hogue Overmolded Beavertail Grip with finger groves
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/11...r-15-with-finger-grooves?cm_vc=ProductFinding
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/49...mer-forged-nitride-finished-chrome-moly-black
I was really trying to stick to 16" barrels but I couldn't find any CHF mid 16" nitrided barrels under $350. Didn't like that the ARP 5.56 barrels were 5/8x24 threaded at the muzzle. I have updated my build in case anyone is still following this thread and has more guidance to offer. I greatly appreciate all of the input so far and it had helped me shape what should be a perfect build for me.
AR Build
Barrel:
$289 Daniel Defense 18" CHF Melonite
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/49...mer-forged-nitride-finished-chrome-moly-black
Hand guard:
$205 Samson Evolution Keymod 15"
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/28...ard-ar-15-aluminum-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Barrel Nut:
$9 BCM Barrel Nut
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=Barrel+Nut+AR15
Upper Receiver:
$60 Aero stripped upper
http://shop.doasales.net/AERO-PRECI...PER-RECEIVER-STRIPPED-AERO-UPPER-RECEIVER.htm
Ejection port cover assembly $6
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/review/product/list/id/723/category/323/
Forward assist $14
http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...parts/parts/ar15-forward-assist-assembly.html
Or:
$13
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/78...round-ar-15-lr-308-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Or:
$19
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...-parts/forward-assist-assembly-prod26120.aspx
Low Profile gas block:
$45 BCM
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=BCM-LGB-.750
Or:
$33 Wilson
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/26...ide-diameter-steel-matte?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Black Gas Tube:
$16 Spikes black melonite mid gas tube
http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/gas-system-parts/gas-tubes/ar-15-m16-gas-tubes-prod44888.aspx
Bolt Carrier Group:
$179 BCM Full Auto shot peened BCG
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=BCM+Bolt+Carrier+Group+AUTO+MP
Charging Handle:
$70 BCM Ambi Gunfighter
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=BCM-GFH-Mod-A44-556AMBI
Lower Reciever:
$200 PSA Complete Lower Magpul STR Black
http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...ul-ctr-edition-foliage-no-magazine-1-2-1.html
Sights:
$86
Magpul Industries MBUS Generation II Sight Set Front & Rear Color BLACK by Magpul http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00817B2JW/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_mYeqtb1DMY4XS
Or:
$21 45degree flip ups:
AR15 AR 15 Front and Rear flip up 45 Degree Rapid Transition BUIS Backup Iron Sight by FieldSport
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007D3OBHK/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_lV-ptb03T5FJ0
Magazines:
$28 Black Window P-Mags (2X$14ea)
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/23...5-223-remington-30-round?cm_vc=ProductFinding
Flash Hider:
$11 A2 flash hider + crush washer
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/mobile/Product.aspx?ProductCode=Flash+Hider+A2
Or (Prefered/Upgrade):
$36 Yankee Hill Machine Annihilator flash hider
https://yhm.net/annihilator-flash-hider-5-56mm.html
Total: $1243 (w/ $14FA, $45LPGB, $86MBUS, $36YHM Annihilator)
Future Upgrades/Additions:
Yankee Hill Machine
$70 Slant muzzle brake.
https://yhm.net/5-56mm-slant-brake-comp.html
$29 Magpul BAD Lever
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/769721/magpul-bad-lever-extended-bolt-catch-ar-15-aluminum-matte
$25 Mako Magwell Grip
New Mako Grip Black Ar Rifles Mwg High Quality Excellent Performance Popular by Mako http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0048ZAVN4/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_1Mfqtb1C6ZW1J
$18 Hogue Overmolded Beavertail Grip with finger groves
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/11...r-15-with-finger-grooves?cm_vc=ProductFinding
You might consider the Magpul MOE-K2 or the BCM Gunfighter Mod 3 for improved ergonomics at about the same price
While there is nothing wrong with the Magpul plastic BUIS...I have a shooting partner who is using them and the flip up mechanism is very clever...you might take a look at the Micro H&K style ones from Troy Industries. I've found they allow faster alignment at close range than the more traditional front post and flared ears, but they are a little heavier as they are metal
Looks like a very nice build. I would skip the annihilator, I have one and it sits in my tool box... Sharp as heck and tears up cases. The rainier XTC or PWS are both good options also. As for a grip the magpul K2 is nice and also the umbrella corporation grip. My new favorite is the BCM Mod 3 grip.
My first AR was a 16" Gov profile and it shot fine, accuracy was good. Building my second AR I debated barrel profiles and ended up going with a 16" LW profile. Now after having both the Gov and LW profiles, it's a huge difference in handling. The LW points faster and easier to hold on target for longer periods of time. As far as point of impact shift, I can't tell any significant difference between the two profiles even when the barrels are hot.
The barrels are the same diameter under the handguards, and the LW stays that same diameter to the muzzle, but the gov profile gets much thicker from the gas block forward. It's uneeded weight way out front.
I've read the only reason for the gov profile on the 20" was the military was worried about the ends of the barrel getting bent doing bayonet drills, and the 16" carbine profile is to allow atachment of a grenade launcher. Well, I'm doing neither of those things.
The barrels are the same diameter under the handguards, and the LW stays that same diameter to the muzzle, but the gov profile gets much thicker from the gas block forward. It's uneeded weight way out front.
I've read the only reason for the gov profile on the 20" was the military was worried about the ends of the barrel getting bent doing bayonet drills, and the 16" carbine profile is to allow atachment of a grenade launcher. Well, I'm doing neither of those things.
I agree about barrel weight, mines a "Recon" profile which is a bit hefty, but there was no alternate at the time.
ugaarguy, thanks for filling in the nitriding/melonite. One application we don't see much here is that it's used in automotive engines for a lot of parts. Major improvements in bearing journal life, valve lifter faces, camshafts. etc. Under severe NASCAR stresses it's mandatory.
Unlike cryo tempering, nitriding really helps most firearm parts because we can't heat treat them and then use extremely low temps to improve the temper. Guns will fire hot enough to destroy the temper, therefore must be designed to work under dead soft annealed conditions. It's good tough steel, but nothing special can be done after machining other than nitriding or a few other processes.
This is a good place to explain one method of designing your own AR, I'll keep it as short as I can.
You pick your target and what ranges you will consistently see that target at. Live, paper, whatever, from point blank to 800+ or beyond. Obtain a realistic view of that - their really isn't much chance of hitting live targets ethically beyond 400m with an AR. And the caliber needs to deliver at least 1000 foot pounds of force or keep supersonic out to that range.
With the range and target established as an 85% use, that picks the cartridge and barrel length. Pick what is OPTIMAL for that application, not a bandaid or the new popular thing. The barrel length uses whatever gas tube that is mounted about 5 inches from the muzzle. The position of the gas port determines bolt open timing, and deviating from that is what causes a lot of malfunctions.
So, barrel, gas port location, and caliber. Now you know what buffer weight and which optic. Mounting that means just using the flat top upper, the handguard rail can't support it on one end, it will void the optic's warranty. The front sight, if used, needs to be on the barrel, not the rail, or it's not a free float isolating if from sling, arm, or bipod pressure.
Trigger is next, if a target/competition, then the better ones; if field, keep to a tactical 6 pound weight. It's a safety measure necessary for use in a tripping hazard environment and cuts down on negligent discharges. Whichever trigger, get one with a travel adjustment screw to get most of the creep out of it, which means most of the grit is avoided, too.
Now we get to the grip and stock, because they do very little to help. Really. If long range competition use fixed, if other an adjustable is nice, but as minimal as possible because it's just dead weight. All it does is hold it up to your shoulder against your cheek. A grip with more length of pull is popular but after 22 years the GI pull hasn't kept me from shooting expert. You get a choice, tho, so go ahead.
Plain standard charging handle. I still don't see where one $50 more does $50 of anything better. You have a bolt hold open, you don't charge every mag.
Pmags if at all possible, cheap, easy to replace, nearly indestructible, Lancers if you want. Issue mags won't survive being dropped on the feed lips loaded, the first three things that cause a malfunction are magazines, ammo, and operator error. Choosing to shoot cheap reject or import fodder involves the last two and causes most of the problems reported on the net. Goes to the gas port timing, which was set up for full power military ammo issued in one or two loads matching the required gas volume. Not somebody's half loads with cheap powder.
Do it that way, you whittle down a lot of the choices that look attractive and confusing to concentrate on what works best for that particular gun. While it's nice to build a rifle that is really nice "arm candy," it's pretty embarrassing if it's a high maintenance female dog.
Or something like that.
ugaarguy, thanks for filling in the nitriding/melonite. One application we don't see much here is that it's used in automotive engines for a lot of parts. Major improvements in bearing journal life, valve lifter faces, camshafts. etc. Under severe NASCAR stresses it's mandatory.
Unlike cryo tempering, nitriding really helps most firearm parts because we can't heat treat them and then use extremely low temps to improve the temper. Guns will fire hot enough to destroy the temper, therefore must be designed to work under dead soft annealed conditions. It's good tough steel, but nothing special can be done after machining other than nitriding or a few other processes.
This is a good place to explain one method of designing your own AR, I'll keep it as short as I can.
You pick your target and what ranges you will consistently see that target at. Live, paper, whatever, from point blank to 800+ or beyond. Obtain a realistic view of that - their really isn't much chance of hitting live targets ethically beyond 400m with an AR. And the caliber needs to deliver at least 1000 foot pounds of force or keep supersonic out to that range.
With the range and target established as an 85% use, that picks the cartridge and barrel length. Pick what is OPTIMAL for that application, not a bandaid or the new popular thing. The barrel length uses whatever gas tube that is mounted about 5 inches from the muzzle. The position of the gas port determines bolt open timing, and deviating from that is what causes a lot of malfunctions.
So, barrel, gas port location, and caliber. Now you know what buffer weight and which optic. Mounting that means just using the flat top upper, the handguard rail can't support it on one end, it will void the optic's warranty. The front sight, if used, needs to be on the barrel, not the rail, or it's not a free float isolating if from sling, arm, or bipod pressure.
Trigger is next, if a target/competition, then the better ones; if field, keep to a tactical 6 pound weight. It's a safety measure necessary for use in a tripping hazard environment and cuts down on negligent discharges. Whichever trigger, get one with a travel adjustment screw to get most of the creep out of it, which means most of the grit is avoided, too.
Now we get to the grip and stock, because they do very little to help. Really. If long range competition use fixed, if other an adjustable is nice, but as minimal as possible because it's just dead weight. All it does is hold it up to your shoulder against your cheek. A grip with more length of pull is popular but after 22 years the GI pull hasn't kept me from shooting expert. You get a choice, tho, so go ahead.
Plain standard charging handle. I still don't see where one $50 more does $50 of anything better. You have a bolt hold open, you don't charge every mag.
Pmags if at all possible, cheap, easy to replace, nearly indestructible, Lancers if you want. Issue mags won't survive being dropped on the feed lips loaded, the first three things that cause a malfunction are magazines, ammo, and operator error. Choosing to shoot cheap reject or import fodder involves the last two and causes most of the problems reported on the net. Goes to the gas port timing, which was set up for full power military ammo issued in one or two loads matching the required gas volume. Not somebody's half loads with cheap powder.
Do it that way, you whittle down a lot of the choices that look attractive and confusing to concentrate on what works best for that particular gun. While it's nice to build a rifle that is really nice "arm candy," it's pretty embarrassing if it's a high maintenance female dog.
Or something like that.
OP
OP
Centurian22
Member
Stag 3T looks cool but the only way I'm getting an AR anytime soon (as in within years) is through the build process buying things a little at a time. It appears that Troy makes some great products but due to their lack of what I would consider reasonable business ethics ( http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...t-the-hells-the-problem-with-troy-industries/ ) I have no interest in purchasing their products. I am aware how pointy the Annihilator is (it's part of why I want it) and that it doesn't play nice with cases. I plan to work out a cover / cap for it, seen many ideas from pill bottles to a tennis or racquetball with a cut in it. Thanks for the input on the lightweight barrel. This (and other) threads has made me much more confident in the purchase of a lightweight barrel.
Tirod: Awesome process! Mine has differed slightly but this gave me other interesting things to look at. I am curious how much difference the 18" barrel makes compared to the 16" in terms of recoil impulse / "softness of shooting" that is talked about with mid length gas systems on the 16" barrel.
Tirod: Awesome process! Mine has differed slightly but this gave me other interesting things to look at. I am curious how much difference the 18" barrel makes compared to the 16" in terms of recoil impulse / "softness of shooting" that is talked about with mid length gas systems on the 16" barrel.
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