My take on the "double tap."
- Thread starter Lurper
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JL
Thanks.
When I was competing regularly, I had a range in my backyard. I fired 500 rounds/day everyday and then travelled to matches on the weekends. We even had a match at my house one weekend. When I moved to AZ, I shot about 1500rnds/wk for a few years. Then I took about a decade off (long story). Now, I shoot 500-1,000 per session and have 1 or 2 sessions per week (usually just one).
Thanks.
When I was competing regularly, I had a range in my backyard. I fired 500 rounds/day everyday and then travelled to matches on the weekends. We even had a match at my house one weekend. When I moved to AZ, I shot about 1500rnds/wk for a few years. Then I took about a decade off (long story). Now, I shoot 500-1,000 per session and have 1 or 2 sessions per week (usually just one).
control the recoil?
Im very impressed by the video. Im a new shooter and Ive been to the range only a couple times with my 1911, which is a SW1911 SC, but I can't understand how you control the recoil to that extent. It doesn't seem possible to me. When I shoot, the barrel doesn't stay pointed at the target the way yours does. What's the technique for keeping the sights aligned like that? How are you unaffected by the recoil?
Best
Terence
Im very impressed by the video. Im a new shooter and Ive been to the range only a couple times with my 1911, which is a SW1911 SC, but I can't understand how you control the recoil to that extent. It doesn't seem possible to me. When I shoot, the barrel doesn't stay pointed at the target the way yours does. What's the technique for keeping the sights aligned like that? How are you unaffected by the recoil?
Best
Terence
Terence, the explanation is too long for this venue. But here is part of it.
It is because I shoot relaxed. The stance and grip are relaxed. Find a journeyman carpenter who still uses a hammer and watch how they use the hammer. They let the hammer do all of the work for them. A gun is the same way. You cannot overcome nor control the recoil or muzzle filp through strength (in grip or stance). So, you have to learn how to use it. If you shoot relaxed and leave your wrists firm but elbows relaxed, that will do a lot toward converting the upward motion to rearward motion. Recoil is not really what we are trying to fight here anyway, it is muzzle flip.
At your level, I run the risk of telling you things that may create bad habits, so I don't want to go into too much detail until you have the basics down. I will have a video available in a couple of weeks that will help you get started in the right direction.
It is because I shoot relaxed. The stance and grip are relaxed. Find a journeyman carpenter who still uses a hammer and watch how they use the hammer. They let the hammer do all of the work for them. A gun is the same way. You cannot overcome nor control the recoil or muzzle filp through strength (in grip or stance). So, you have to learn how to use it. If you shoot relaxed and leave your wrists firm but elbows relaxed, that will do a lot toward converting the upward motion to rearward motion. Recoil is not really what we are trying to fight here anyway, it is muzzle flip.
At your level, I run the risk of telling you things that may create bad habits, so I don't want to go into too much detail until you have the basics down. I will have a video available in a couple of weeks that will help you get started in the right direction.
Thanks!
Thanks for the reply.
You make a very important point. I noticed myself that is IS the muzzle flip that I notice on my pistols that makes it harder to keep the sights aligned on the target. The rearward travel doesn't disorient nearly as much as the vertical displacment. I was expressing myself imprecisely in my previous post.
I'll keep my eyes open for your video. Looking forward to it very much. Thank you again for posting this stuff. I find it very interesting.
Thanks for the reply.
You make a very important point. I noticed myself that is IS the muzzle flip that I notice on my pistols that makes it harder to keep the sights aligned on the target. The rearward travel doesn't disorient nearly as much as the vertical displacment. I was expressing myself imprecisely in my previous post.
I'll keep my eyes open for your video. Looking forward to it very much. Thank you again for posting this stuff. I find it very interesting.
boredelmo
member
I enjoyed the video, very informative!
JL
It was easier when I had sponsors - hell, I didn't even pay for plane tickets half the time then. Now, it isn't that expensive, I haven't broken down the cost, but it has to be around $60 -$75 /week. I use a Dillon 1050 that I got a smoking deal on when they used to sponsor me, so it doesn't take that long to load 1,000 (less than an hour). I switch calibers from .45 to .38 super, so I will usually load at least 1,000 at each sitting. Sometimes I will load 2,000 if I know I am going to switch calibers.
It was easier when I had sponsors - hell, I didn't even pay for plane tickets half the time then. Now, it isn't that expensive, I haven't broken down the cost, but it has to be around $60 -$75 /week. I use a Dillon 1050 that I got a smoking deal on when they used to sponsor me, so it doesn't take that long to load 1,000 (less than an hour). I switch calibers from .45 to .38 super, so I will usually load at least 1,000 at each sitting. Sometimes I will load 2,000 if I know I am going to switch calibers.
CountGlockula
Member
That looks like Burro Canyon...is it?
Vern Humphrey
Member
Larry Word, one of the best tacticians the US Army ever produced, used to say, "Fire your first shot at the most dangerous target. Every shot is your first shot."
That's good advice.
That's good advice.
Chris Rhines
Member
Lurper, thanks for posting your video. Lots of good information there.
The thing I have the toughest time with is keeping my arms and hands relaxed while shooting splits. I always seem to tense up after a few runs. Need to work on it more.
- Chris
The thing I have the toughest time with is keeping my arms and hands relaxed while shooting splits. I always seem to tense up after a few runs. Need to work on it more.
- Chris
ilcylic
Member
Fascinating stuff. 
Old Times
Lurper
Re: Post #27
I remember that match we shot in your backyard.
If memory serves me correctly I was in my IPSC revolver stage at that time and brought my old man with me to watch us.
I'll tell the crew at Gilberts I talked to ya.
Of course we're all alot older now.
Sure has been some lead thrown downrange since those days.
Looks like you haven't lost your touch.
KTF
ddave
Lurper
Re: Post #27
I remember that match we shot in your backyard.
If memory serves me correctly I was in my IPSC revolver stage at that time and brought my old man with me to watch us.
I'll tell the crew at Gilberts I talked to ya.
Of course we're all alot older now.
Sure has been some lead thrown downrange since those days.
Looks like you haven't lost your touch.
KTF
ddave
Kor
Member
All right - now I can start over-analyzing!
Agreed, although I have had to compromise this somewhat; I usually CCW with an IWB that has about 20-25 degrees cant angle, for better concealment - this forces me to "break" my wrist angle slightly downwards on the draw, instead of locking my wrist solidly. I have over the years gravitated towards revolvers, Glocks, and arched-MSH 1911's, which point slightly high for me; I prefer to initially acquire my front sight above the rear notch, rather than have it obscured by the rear sight body and have to waste split-seconds hunting for it.
Again, agreed - although I'm certainly not at your level yet; I can call my shots in slow-fire from a bench or standing, but I can't call my shots reliably when shooting at speed. This is not always bad - I vividly remember a stage where I called a miss on a target, only to find a "down-1" hit.
Okay, fiber-op sights pick up real quick, I just think "iron" iron sights are more durable. I've tried Heinie Straight-Eights and a King's gold bead front/black rear setup, but I am most accustomed to, and most confident with, 3-dot sights; I feel that the dots on front and rear give me a better idea of where the front sight is relative to the rear, which helps me to call my shots more easily.
Well explained, and understood perfectly - no argument here! Thanks for being so forthcoming!
Agreed, although I have had to compromise this somewhat; I usually CCW with an IWB that has about 20-25 degrees cant angle, for better concealment - this forces me to "break" my wrist angle slightly downwards on the draw, instead of locking my wrist solidly. I have over the years gravitated towards revolvers, Glocks, and arched-MSH 1911's, which point slightly high for me; I prefer to initially acquire my front sight above the rear notch, rather than have it obscured by the rear sight body and have to waste split-seconds hunting for it.
Again, agreed - although I'm certainly not at your level yet; I can call my shots in slow-fire from a bench or standing, but I can't call my shots reliably when shooting at speed. This is not always bad - I vividly remember a stage where I called a miss on a target, only to find a "down-1" hit.
Okay, fiber-op sights pick up real quick, I just think "iron" iron sights are more durable. I've tried Heinie Straight-Eights and a King's gold bead front/black rear setup, but I am most accustomed to, and most confident with, 3-dot sights; I feel that the dots on front and rear give me a better idea of where the front sight is relative to the rear, which helps me to call my shots more easily.
Well explained, and understood perfectly - no argument here! Thanks for being so forthcoming!
point shooting
point shooting works well for double tap with weapon already drawn
i practice it at the range for center mass shots, generally at approximately 10-15 feet. Try for head shots just for fun.
Impressive video, but i'm not trying to be "quick draw mcgraw".
http://www.pointshooting.com/
cool site
point shooting works well for double tap with weapon already drawn
i practice it at the range for center mass shots, generally at approximately 10-15 feet. Try for head shots just for fun.
Impressive video, but i'm not trying to be "quick draw mcgraw".
http://www.pointshooting.com/
cool site
My biggest problem with the "double tap" is that I start jerking the trigger or squeezing the handle to hard. My whole hand starts tensing up rather than just my trigger finger moving faster.
I hope practice, practice and more practice improves this. Maybe I should get one of the grip strengthening tools and practice just moving the trigger finger.
I hope practice, practice and more practice improves this. Maybe I should get one of the grip strengthening tools and practice just moving the trigger finger.
jw
There are two things that will help that:
Dryfiring. Hold the pistol in your strong hand. Make sure your hand is relaxed, make that the #1 priority. Practice pulling the trigger while making sure your hand is relaxed.
Visualization. Visualize yourself pulling the trigger. See your hand remain relaxed while only your trigger finger moves to press the trigger.
Those to little exercises will help immensely.
There are two things that will help that:
Dryfiring. Hold the pistol in your strong hand. Make sure your hand is relaxed, make that the #1 priority. Practice pulling the trigger while making sure your hand is relaxed.
Visualization. Visualize yourself pulling the trigger. See your hand remain relaxed while only your trigger finger moves to press the trigger.
Those to little exercises will help immensely.
Grump
Member
It's been a while since I lurked or posted on brianenos.com, but I see some foundational elements here that apply to the great pointshooting debate.
1. The first fundamental is a good Natural Point of Aim. This is quite flexible (within limits) with handguns, since the hands do legitimately tend to follow the eyes. Too much flex and you will wind up forcing the firearm to NOT return to its starting position, and analyzed by Lurper.
2. From NPA comes the "index", an ability to *know* where the pistol is pointed because of your body awareness. I know muscles have no "memory", but a lot of people call it that--just like how you *tend to* reach for the shift knob at the same place in every car, based on your primary daily driver's layout. Your muscles have nerves, and the memory lies in your head, guiding the muscles.
When done as a Lurper two-sight-picture "double tap" or "controlled pair" with a separate sight picture for every shot, I'm not sure that there is truly a DECISION to fire the 2nd shot only AFTER seeing the sight picture.... In any case, the awareness quoted above is comparable with the IPSC shooters' "see what you need to see to make the shot". I have a general idea of how far out from the center of the rear sight notch my FS can be at 7 yards, and still get a hit.
Now, I've tried Mr. Temkin's general ideas from as far back as about 1995, before I ever read about them, and did visual index looking past the twin images of the slide while looking at a 10- to 12-yard metal target only 8 inches wide. I fired as quickly as I could get that time of reference, in dusk too dark to see the whitedot sights, and got hits every time. Estimated splits were maybe twice those in Lurper's video.
In my opinion, it's still sighted fire as long as you are using some visual reference to the firearm. You are simply using a different object to "sight" on, even if it's the whole slide. Coarse sighting is still sighting, and has proven to be VERY effective and fast.
Lurper: repeat your exercise from low or medium ready, just with your eyes closed before you raise the gun. NO sight picture at all, and I'll betcha your shots are still within 4 inches of each other, though they might not be quite so close to the center of the A Zone.
Mr. Temkin: Try your techniques under circumstances where you cannot get any visual reference to the gun or its slide and generally cannot see it at all. I postulate that the most well-trained in your sightless techniques will be almost, if not just as, fast AND accurate as when they can see the gun, out to at least 5 or 7 yards. Even those casually trained for only a half-hour will probably get acceptable speed and accuracy to 5 yards.
I base this on some of my own PS experiments with a coupla snubbie revolvers in the late 1970s. One-hand HIPshooting worked okay maybe half the time out to 15 yards (with the occasional memorable aberration center hit to 25 yards!) only when I could see the gun. Tried it with a piece of paper held at my neck, obscuring the position and orientation of the gun, and hipshooting fell apart and was marginally good out to only 3 yards.
Bottom line: the "see the sights every time" factor is sometimes more of an incidental observation of the sufficient alignment for each shot, which will happen regardless of where your eyes are focused if you have a good NPA and Index, including sufficient awareness of where the slide of the gun is pointed in relation to the target.
Few PS techniques are what I would call true PS shots. You're still SEEING what you need to see to make the shot.
IMNSHO, the true key to second-shot accuracy is letting the gun snap back after recoil, and triggering the shot only when it gets back to the NPA. 7 yards and closer, you might not need any visual index, but it will surely help for the final timing and closer placement of follow-up shots.
Grump
I have shot targets at 10 yards with my eyes closed. There is a lot to be said about knowing where your natural point of aim is.
Also, I would agree with the concept that sighting is really just having a visual reference relative to the bore. I occasionally will shoot as soon as I clear leather (sort of the combat rock method) and know that it can be done effectively. However, rightly or wrongly, I believe that it is better to learn to shoot fast using the sights first. I also believe that anyone can be taught to shoot that fast using the sights.
One point to clarify if I may:
There is never a "decision" to shoot. That would entail using the conscious mind which is counter productive. The best way I can put it is that there is a direct link between my eyes and my trigger finger. When the sights are there, the finger moves. When they aren't it doesn't.
I have shot targets at 10 yards with my eyes closed. There is a lot to be said about knowing where your natural point of aim is.
Also, I would agree with the concept that sighting is really just having a visual reference relative to the bore. I occasionally will shoot as soon as I clear leather (sort of the combat rock method) and know that it can be done effectively. However, rightly or wrongly, I believe that it is better to learn to shoot fast using the sights first. I also believe that anyone can be taught to shoot that fast using the sights.
One point to clarify if I may:
There is never a "decision" to shoot. That would entail using the conscious mind which is counter productive. The best way I can put it is that there is a direct link between my eyes and my trigger finger. When the sights are there, the finger moves. When they aren't it doesn't.
Matthew Temkin
Member
Grump..I have shot in total darkness.
More importantly I have had novice shooters do so.
And the result...many shot tighter groups ( and a lot faster shooting) than with aimed fire.
For the record..when I point shoot ( be it from the hip or at nose level) my total focus is on the exact spot that I want to hit.
In other words, I do not use any part of the gun as a visual reference.
If you want to call this sighted shooting than be my guest.
More importantly I have had novice shooters do so.
And the result...many shot tighter groups ( and a lot faster shooting) than with aimed fire.
For the record..when I point shoot ( be it from the hip or at nose level) my total focus is on the exact spot that I want to hit.
In other words, I do not use any part of the gun as a visual reference.
If you want to call this sighted shooting than be my guest.
Point shoot is a defensive shooting technique. It is generally used in a situation, where you are under a great deal of stress. Not when you have time to aim with sights and then shoot. Shooting "faster" is not good either in a defensive situation...the faster you shoot, the less accurate you are going to be. (what/who is behind what you are shooting at?)This quickdraw stuff is impressive, on the range, but does not work in real life situations. I only practice point shoot for that time, that i might have to use it. Hope I never have to.
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