My thoughts on current combative firearms training - Dave Spaulding

[Sapper771]

I agree with some of the article, but I kept getting the feeling that Dave may be a bit sore about how things have changed......without him. Things change, it happens.

I dont really need him dictating what training I , as a Citizen, should seek.

I am sure there were fan boys and scam instructors in his days. I am sure that for every competent instructor today, there are just as many incompetent instructors. Its like anything else, do your research and weed out the bad.

I have been around a lot of instructors/trainers (military/police/civilian). Most of them were good if not excellent. Working with a good/great instructor was the best way for me to learn how to spot the bad instructors. They are out there.

I do not know Dave, but I think I agree with him when he says this article will hurt him more than help him.

 

[JohnKSa]

The main difference between it and the "shoot and assess" technique is that with "shoot them to the ground," you default to continual fire until you affirmatively see that the threat is over (the bad guy laying on the ground being one likely way this happens); whereas with "shoot and assess," you default to NOT firing after each shot unless you affirmatively confirm that the threat still exists.

Given that something like 90% of successful self-defense gun uses don't result in any injury at all to the attacker, it is most certainly not LIKELY that ending an attack will require putting the bad guy on the ground.

That is one way it happens, but it is probably the most UNlikely way it happens.

And, if "shoot to the ground" really means shoot until the attack ends then it needs a name that is far less misleading. Maybe it should be called "shoot while assessing" since what you describe is "shooting while assessing" until your assessment tells you to stop shooting because it's no longer necessary.

I dont really need him dictating what training I , as a Citizen, should seek.

How is stating an opinion "dictating" anything?

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/dictate_1

Dictate: 1. to influence or control how something is done 2. to tell someone exactly what to do and how to behave

Someone saying that they disagree with something or think something is a bad idea is a long way from "dictating".

It may seem nit-picky, but this general attitude is becoming a pervasive evil in our society. People are beginning to equate the statement of differing opinion with an actual infringement on their rights/actions. If it continues it will have a paralyzing influence on any sort of discussion or exchange of ideas.

 

[Old Dog]

I'm still trying to figure out if some of us are actually disagreeing or what, but I do know Spaulding wasn't trying to "dictate what kind of training I as a citizen should take."

I think some here may be overthinking his comments. Everyone's entitled to whine sometime. Just seemed like a lament about a certain personality cult common in the commercial training arena these days, as well as Spaulding's apparent late realization that most consumers of training do seem to be possessed of a Walter Mitty complex or many instructors think that's what most of these consumers want. No big deal.

Jeff, I'm impressed by the way you deconstructed my entire post.

At this point, I can add that I'm glad I work in public service and am re-thinking my idea to work part time in the private sector post-retirement doing this kind of training ... It's too serious of a job to me to try and make money off indulging other people's fantasies, plus I have no tattoos and can't grow a beard.

 

[Jeff White]

Jeff, I'm impressed by the way you deconstructed my entire post.

Nothing was meant as a criticism of anything you expressed. I just wanted to give my take on the points you made.

At this point, I can add that I'm glad I work in public service and am re-thinking my idea to work part time in the private sector post-retirement doing this kind of training ...

I've only taught a couple classes in the private sector. I have given a lot of one on one instruction since I retired. When Illinois passed CCW I decided not to register to teach their course, because I didn't think I could do their 16 hours at a rate that most people could afford. But then maybe I overvalue my skills as an instructor.

 

[Old Dog]

Oh, I know. I guess I'm actually realizing that I was feeling more like Mr. Spaulding than I'd previously thought. And some of the comments here do make me feel privileged that I've been able to work with dedicated folks who take their responsibilities seriously (as I'm sure you feel).

 

[Sapper771]

"Never mind much of the battlefield stuff was/is inappropriate for law enforcement or the legally armed citizen...it was/is really cool to do! Gear became the primary concern and many felt as long as they looked good, it did not matter if they could shoot good"

His general tone throughout this article (or rant) is preachy. He abviously does not approve of a lot of whats going on in todays training market (and many of his observations are accurate). From his perceived tone, attitude, and use of words.....I got the feeling that he thinks knows what training I need, or I should get. He clearly stated that the "battlefield stuff" is inappropriate for LE and civilians. I have to disagree with him. I went from the battlefield to LEO and a lot of the "stuff" I learned from the battlefield, I used in LE. A lot of the "stuff" I learned from the battlefield and LE I use today as a Civilian. Has Dave ever been on a battlefield?

I posted my opinion of his opinion, and now my attitude is becoming a pervasive evil in society? What about his attitude?

 

[JohnKSa]

I posted my opinion of his opinion, and now my attitude is becoming a pervasive evil in society?

He can have any opinion he wants. He is free to state it. His statement of it has no effect on what others must do. It does not control them or dictate their actions.

You can have any opinion you want as well and are similarly free to state it. That's not the problem.

The problem comes when you start saying that someone else's stated opinion somehow controls/dictates your actions. The idea that a stated opinion actually infringes on a person's ability to make their own choices or that it controls their actions is how people get the idea that they have a right not to be offended, a right to not hear differing opinions, a right not to hear criticism.

And that leads to this kind of thing:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...-need-safe-spaces-to-avoid-scary-free-speech/

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/1...-campuses-unconstitional-say-law-experts.html

 

[Sapper771]

What would you like me to say instead of what I said? You obviously feel strongly about it since you have equated this attitude to that of spoiled, over privelaged punks. Not sure where your trying to go here, but I never said I was offended. Are you?

Dave made the statement (opinion) that the battlefield stuff is not appropriate for LE and civilians. My opinion is that his opinion is quite dangerous, but thats just my opinion of his opinion, IMHO. I understand that opinions can become laws. I also understand that laws can infringe on rights. I have heard a lot of people, including police officers, say the same thing, that civilians dont need battlefield stuff like AR-15s , AK-47s, etc. Our current prez says the same thing. Their opinion is that we do not need it because we are not soldiers in battle on a battlefield, thus it is inappropriate. These people vote and I am sure you understand which way they vote.

My use of words may not settle well with you, but I see these types of opinions as toxic. Hard to hear them come from someone with some authority in our world.

Now give me my safe space and a journalist to assault.

 

[JohnKSa]

I understand that opinions can become laws.

I think we can all agree that it's pretty unlikely that Spalding's opinion piece is going to be made into law. But yes, in the unlikely event that Spalding's opinions DID become law then it would make some modicum of sense to talk about them dictating something. Even then it wouldn't really be his statement of opinion that dictated anything, it would be the law that did the dictating.

What would you like me to say instead of what I said?

I'm not telling you or even encouraging you to change your opinion or your statement. I'm just pointing out a problem with something you said.

If you want to say something different after thinking about it you can. If you don't want to say something different after thinking about it, you don't have to. If you don't want to think about it, you don't have to do that either.

Nothing I say here should be interpreted as trying to make you do anything.

...I see these types of opinions as toxic. Hard to hear them come from someone with some authority in our world.

If you think it has no merit then dismiss it. But don't try to make it seem that the reason you don't like it is that it might somehow force you to get a type of training you don't agree with or prevent you from getting the type of training you want. Because it won't--it can't. That was the main point.

The other point is that the idea that someone's statement of opinion somehow infringes on a person's free choice is not only becoming popular but is also problematic.

 

[AStone]

About ten days ago, I hopped on a big jet plane, then, in DC, a little jet plane,
and moved back home. I'm there now. I'm happy to be here ... again.

I did not like FL ...

But wait, I digress. Back on topic.

Point is, I'm just coming out of MOVING chaos,
so more than a little behind reading.

I hope someday -- after getting settled and making money again --
to catch up reading in this ... fine thread.

But for now, just a comment on a quote from Mr. White.

Emphasis is mine.

As for the internet. Alcohol can only dream about lowering people's inhibitions the way the internet does. People get online, make up a screen name and they think they are anonymous and can say anything they want to and there won't be any repercussions. There is a lot of work done by the staff here to maintain the level of online discourse we have. And it grates on many people who feel like they have a right to be inflammatory, all you have to do is read some of the threads in Tech Support about how over moderated we are. The internet is what it is, and I don't think it's going to change and if you are a professional who has an online presence you need to have a very thick skin or limit your online activity to a closed forum of vetted members.

My name is Posiwasiwakaeg Jr. I wear a black belt in tech sup.
______

Oh, wait .. sorry; lost my head for a few seconds.

(Hey, it's Friday night, and I'm home in (ME)
for the first time in months,
so I'm celebrating a bit.)



Alcohol?

Not more than 9.
_______

But back on topic: combative training.

I like Kelly McCann.

Being a stick guy (since age 9) w/ a 9,
this vid just makes sense to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGgaQ07D09Y