My views on gun ownership

[Ieyasu]

HankTN,

My "asinine" comment wasn't directed at you either. Some other poster had brought it up. I thought your original post regarding Miller was to clarify what somebody else had said about the case.

I have nothing against discussing SC decisions, however some, not you, have oversold them. Also, and more importantly, the original thread-starter's comments were directed towards original intent. And in that context, I'd establish a solid case for THAT before moving on to the Courts. And that's what brought me to this thread in the first place-- the incredibly feable attempt at discussing the 2A's original intent or meaning.

 

[mpd239]

"I won't question any further because it looks like our little droogie has jaunted back to his world from the alternative universe of the rest of the world."

Just wanted to respond to this, the rest of your near-masturbatory arguments will be left untouched--
NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll 9/17-9/19

12% of America is satisfied that the AWB has expired

Harris Poll 9/9-9/13

72% of REPUBLICANS favored continuing the ban.

NBC/Wall Street Journal 11/8-11/10 (2003)

78% want to KEEP BAN



Gun control, especially the AWB, is in fact one of the LEAST divisive issues in American politics. Mainstream America supports gun rights, but expects owners to be mature and responsible in curtailing their consumption of goods that can potentially harm society. To claim that I live in an alternative universe is borderline insane.


All polls can be viewed on http://www.pollingreport.com/guns.htm

Also, while the American public may not agree with me on the Second Amendment, they do agree on handgun rights-- meaning my view is pretty much mainstream.

 

[12-34hom]

Collective rights????

I always love to go to a great BBQ..

12-34hom

 

[Ieyasu]

78% want to KEEP BAN

Yeah, and how many think that the ban deals with full-auto weapons?


From the poll:

In general, do you think gun control laws should be made more strict, less strict, or kept as they are now

Most respondents don't know what the current laws are.

 

[Ian]

Who cares what the majority thinks or feels? The majority has no authority to infringe on human rights.

 

[HankTN]

Ieyasu:

I took no offense at your comment, nor did I think that you meant to give it. My primary reason for posting is to engender constructive debate. The original poster on this thread had foreclosed such debate by arguing for a collectivist interpretation of the second amendment.

The only discussion that can be meaningfully had under that theory is whether the National Guard is a militia and, if not, can an individual sue his state to provide for a militia in its absence. Perhaps we could debate on whether or not Congress is required to issue each adult male citizen of this country an M-4. See Art. I, Sec. 8, para. 16 " To provide for . . . arming . . . the militia." Since I do subscribe to the individual right theory of the second amendment, I reserve those debates for when I run out of other good fiction.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Your polling data, even if accurate, is irrelevant. At one time 80% of Americans thought it was a good idea to own slaves. Fortunately we do not live in a democracy and are not subject to the tyranny of the majority. A "majority" of Americans allegedly voted for algore. Is he in the Whitehouse? Democracy can be described as two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. We live under the rule of law. If you don't understand that by now, you'd better rethink your entire educational career.

 

[White Horseradish]

Mainstream America supports gun rights, but expects owners to be mature and responsible in curtailing their consumption of goods that can potentially harm society.

Also, while the American public may not agree with me on the Second Amendment, they do agree on handgun rights-- meaning my view is pretty much mainstream.

Well, how did that H.L Mencken quote go? "No one in this world, so far as I know ... has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people."



I would love to have a rational point by point discussion with you, mpd. The thing that stops me is the attitude you brought here in your first post. This particular bit

I find that insulated issue-oriented internet communities often diverge from mainstream viewpoints, and don't become aware of their radicalism or the illogical nature of some of their views.

is what grates me.

You position yourself as some modern day Prometheus coming down from Mount Olympus to bring light to us poor wretches in our radicalism and illogic.

That is extremely condescending and insulting. Perhaps a fresh start with a horse of a smaller stature is in order?

 

[ReadyontheRight]

...near-masturbatory arguments...

Um...Please note the NAME of this forum Chuckles.

72% of REPUBLICANS favored continuing the ban.

Since you're such a intellectual in Political Science, please tell me the meaning of two phrases:

1. Tyranny of the Majority
2. Constitutional Republic

Also -- I still haven't seen a coherent response as to why I cannot have more than 10 rounds in an individual magazine to defend my family.

Most of us couldn't care less if you are a Democrat, a Republican or a Zaroastrian Anarchist Ninja. For the most part, you've received very well-reasoned arguments against your position (which is not very unique by the way - 'You can have whatever guns some "higher authority" approves'.)

We're pointing out that the non-infringed right to keep and bear arms is a key component of this societal miracle we call the U.S.A. If you care to refute what we consider to be fact, we want some well-reasoned arguments.

I haven't seen one yet.

 

[Gordon Fink]

You may have missed them a few pages back, but please answer my questions, mpd.

As others have pointed out already, the banned semi-automatic rifles were no more dangerous than other non-banned semi-automatic firearms. So what was the point of the 1994 “law�

Why should I be prohibited from owning a rifle or a car or a Bible, so long as I don’t misuse it?

~G. Fink

 

[Justin]

Gun control, especially the AWB, is in fact one of the LEAST divisive issues in American politics. Mainstream America supports gun rights, but expects owners to be mature and responsible in curtailing their consumption of goods that can potentially harm society.

*snort* So a majority of people polled who couldn't tell you the difference between an AR15 and a Walther GSP get to dictate what I can and can't have?

My, that's just fantastic. I'm sure that if polling had been invented in the 18th century you would have found that a majority of Americans believed that slavery was moral.

Or that a majority of Germans really thought that the Jews should be put in concentration camps.

Just because a majority of people believe something doesn't make it right. In fact, I would submit that more often than not the majority of people don't know what they're talking about. They just expectorate an opinion because they think they have to.

Funny how you've not been able to back up any of your original assertions or the rebuttals to them, and have been reduced to resorting to the fallacy of Argumentum ad Numerum.

To claim that I live in an alternative universe is borderline insane.

Again, I point out that those with no true understanding of the topic probably are in the majority and do agree with you. But just because the inmates are running the asylum doesn't mean that they're capable of rational thought.

 

[mpd239]

"You position yourself as some modern day Prometheus coming down from Mount Olympus to bring light to us poor wretches in our radicalism and illogic."

I think the polling data I just provided shows how insulated this communities views are.

Trust me, I know all about tyranny of the majority, constitutional republic, elitist theories of democracy formulated in the 1950s and 60s, etc. Public opinion has a limited role in US policy-- BUT AS I STATED, I POSTED THE POLLS IN RESPONSE TO SOMEONE CLAIMING MY VIEWS CAME FROM AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE.

 

[R.H. Lee]

You describe yourself as a "liberal". That's unfortunate, because liberalism is a failed concept. It has failed everywhere it's been tried, and anywhere it's so-called "principles" are employed. Communist and socialist countries everywhere (the ones that still exist) are in economic chaos. Goods and services are limited or rationed. Poverty abounds and it's simple to understand; whatever you subsidize you get more of. When you extort money from producers to give to non producers, you get fewer producers and more non-producers. It's axiomatic. Liberals like to think of themselves as benevolent champions of the "underdog", and their methodology is to create more underdogs as a means of acquiring and attaining power. It's all about power, and the exploitation of the less fortunate is just a cost of doing business to the left. Some of the most egregious racism in this country is practiced by the so-called "black leadership", with the message to black men and women that they are powerless, and need special treatment enforced by government mandate in order to gain equal footing. Pit one group against another, create dependency, employ extortion, demonize success and independence; liberalism is the antithesis of the principles that founded this country and made it the benevolent world power it is today. No country in the history of the world has ever had as much power and wealth as the United States, and no country has every used it so beneficially.

If you and your ilk think firearms owership is subject to the whim of "academic" opinion or activist judges with a statist agenda, you are very very misguided. You know why your man Kerry is sinking faster than Ted Kennedy's car? Because he has no core, no principles, and no integrity. He is a classic elitist liberal, the kind who should be on the "endangered species" list.

 

[R.H. Lee]

And by the way, after 5 pages, you, after claiming to be a scholar, haven't engaged ANYONE's argument. You seem to be too busy being "offended". Is that all 'ya got?

 

[Ieyasu]

HankTN,

I noticed in your profile you're an attorney. I posted a new thread regarding the copyright clause and the 2A. I'd be interested in your thoughts.

 

[mpd239]

Uh, I never claimed to be a scholar. Keep putting words in my mouth, guy.

Secondly, I am not a Communist nor a Socialist. Neither are liberal-democratic ideologies; they are ideologies unto themselves. Right wing religious fundamentalism is failing miserably in the Middle East; yet I'm not about to compare that to the religious right in the US.

I did not articulate views on anything other than gun control; I don't expect to be judged on any other views. I'm a Democrat but that doesn't mean I follow the party line to a T or passionately embrace John Kerry.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Which is it?

I'm a Politics student at one of the top programs in the country; I have read plenty.

or

Uh, I never claimed to be a scholar. Keep putting words in my mouth, guy.

?

 

[RavenVT100]

12% of America is satisfied that the AWB has expired

Harris Poll 9/9-9/13

72% of REPUBLICANS favored continuing the ban.

NBC/Wall Street Journal 11/8-11/10 (2003)

78% want to KEEP BAN

And how many people who answered the poll thought that assault weapons, as legally defined, were machine guns or exact equivalants of military assault rifles? When polled, the number of people who actually believe this comes pretty close to the amount of people who answered "yes" to "should we extend the ban?" I'm an engineer. A significant minority of people who have gone to college in this country have gone through a differential equations course during their tenure at a university. If I polled all of the United States and asked if arbitrary function f was a first-order homogeneous differential equation, do you think that more than a quarter of the population would even know what that meant?

It's the same thing with the Assault Weapons ban. Most people don't even know what an assault weapon even is. How are they supposed to know how to answer a poll like that if the anti-gun lobby has given them such an emotionally-charged and incorrect set of terminology on which to base their opinions?

Let me ask you a question. What's the fuunctional difference between a modern-day "assault weapon" and the rifles that were used by US troops in World War II, other than magazine capacity? I want to know if you really understand what you're talking about.

In addition to that, in order to clarify your point I think you should explain what accessories flash suppressors and pistol grips are, and how they affect a weapon's rate of fire or lethality. Pretend I'm a ten year old child, who just asked you why assault weapons should be banned, and what the difference is between an assault weapon and my father's semiauto Browning that he uses to hunt deer.

If you can purport to know enough to form a YES or NO opinion on the topic of "should assault weapons be banned," then you should easily be able to answer these questions.

 

[sm]

The Second Amendment is the Keystone in the Archway of Freedom.

 

[R.H. Lee]

I did not articulate views on anything other than gun control;

Then provide some reasoning for your "views" other than some abstract "feeling" or some questionable agenda driven media poll.

Engage some of the arguments put forth herein. Quit trying to become a victim. Think. Speak. Articulate. Engage. If you are able.

 

[only1asterisk]

I'm done with you kid. My rights don't come from polls, historic documents, governments or courts. I recognize no limits on them other than those I see fit to impose on myself. You and your 80% (or 65% or 51% or 50.000001%) are irrelevant to me. I simply don't care. The moment laws limit my rights I will simply ignore them as I will you.

David

 

[Justin]

C'mon mpd239, I've posted a measly three times in this thread and you have yet to address or rebut even one of my assertions.

In rereading this thread, Ieyasu is doing a better job of debating/discussing than you are, and Ieyasu is pro-gun! Has the anti-rights movement become so devoid of rational debate that the only way to engage in it is via sparring matches among our own?

I mean, honestly, you have yet to present, support, or give us one inkling of an argument that we haven't already heard from politically and technically ignorant soccer mom types.

Pity.

I would have expected more from a New York University politics student.

 

[White Horseradish]

I think the polling data I just provided shows how insulated this communities views are.

There you go again with the attitude. The polling data you provided has absolutely nothing to with anything I have said. Even if it does prove something about us, you still come off as arrogant and insulting.

Please read what I said, and pay attention this time.

 

[schromf]

near-masturbatory arguments

MPD, You certainly know how to win friends and influence enemies.

 

[GhostRider-Nine]

Nothing like finding a rusty old revolver, loading it up with blanks, then challenging the local fastdraw sharpshooter to a gunfight.

I was thinking more along the lines of bringing a knife to a gunfight.