My views on gun ownership

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Bottom line on "Incorporated to the states":

It is a judicial doctrine, utterly alien to the Constitution, that flows from another extaConstitutional judicial doctrine, "the presumption of Constitutionality", which (dangerously and insanely!!!) presumes upon the honor and integrity of the legislators, and presumes the constitutionality of laws enacted until proven otherwise.

There is nothing in the 14th, or anywhere else in the Constitution that allows courts to cherrypick rights they favor, or deem "fundamental".

There is nothing anywhere in the Text that suggests that SCOTUS must rule positively on an element of the B of R for it to have full force and effect.

Read Barnett's "Presumption of Liberty" for background on this.
 
I haven't done thorough research into the AWB or its effects


Maybe you should have?

Bill Clintons administration already did the research for you. Here is what they found...

"the ban did not produce declines in the average number of victims per incident of gun murder or gun murder victims with multiple wounds"

http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/173405.pdf

Kind of puts a damper on the whole argument that these assault weapons are more efficient at killing than ordinary guns.

Question for you: How does a law that only restricts the law abiding citizens with clean records reduce murder, when 80% of the murders in the country are commited by those in a GOVERNMENT SUPERVISED RELEASE PROGRAM (such as parolees and probationaries, and as such are forbidden by law from possesing ANY sort of firearm)?

And don't be so sensitive, there are nuts everywhere....you have an ignore function you can use for them.
 
entering thread late, quote from page 2.

sports cars are not designed to kill.
And neither is an AK-47. Or any other gun. They are designed to propel a bullet down a barrel. What you do with it is up to the user. More law abiding citizens use them for lawful purposes than criminals use them for non lawful purposes. Why punish the majority for the crimes of the minority?



My AR-15 has never killed anyone, and hopefully it will never have to.
 
One more note about the sports cars vs assault weapons thing... I wouldnt even begin to know how to find this information, but Im willing to bet that FAR more people die in high speed auto crashes than by legally owned assault weapons, or even all legal and illegal and even illegal FULL AUTO assault weapons in the USA.

On top of that, here's something else to hurt your brain.

Are most high speed car accidents with Porches and Lambo's? No. They are usually with POS cars driven by morons, at speeds much faster than a Chevy Cavalier was intended to go. Someone with a Porsce is more likely to be carefull with his beloved trophy that costs him 900 dollars a month.

My point here is that although Sports cars can drive faster and look sharper, they arent any more dangerous being driven at 120 into a tree than a cheap old Toyota Corolla or a Chevy Caprice. Any car is capable of being misused, weather it is designed to be driven at inter-gallactic speeds or just for going around town. A S&W .38 revolver can be shot at someone and kill them just as easily as a $3000 FN FAL with all the bells and whistles.

120 miles per hour is 120 miles per hour, no matter what you're driving.

And a bullet to the head is a bullet to the head.
 
mpd239

Let me ask you:

Let's assume the AWB had no sunset provision and was still in effect. And let's assume that the ban had at least a slightly positive effect in reducing crime.

Now what? Is that it? Is that the end? Is that good enough?

Then we all go home happy.

Or...

Or what? If someone could show conclusively that the AWB reduced overall crime by 0.00026%, or better yet, show that the 82% of the general public believe the ban is a good thing, then maybe the ban could be extended to include other features?

What is the logical extension?
 
Why should this semi-automatic rifle …
ar15a3.jpg


… be banned, while this semi-automatic rifle …
LoadedStandard.jpg


… should not?

Both are used in very few crimes.

Why not ban this handgun …
162420_large.jpg


… which is used in many illegal shootings?

None should be banned. They all serve useful purposes that should not be forbidden to law-abiding citizens. Criminals are already prohibited from owning and using any firearms.

~G. Fink
 
MPD--you have waived your Second Amendment argument and, as was pointed out earlier, your understanding of the AWB was flawed. You have now moved to these vague positions:

"a) the flawed nature of gun rights arguments in using actual incidents of self-defense rather than the threat and risk imposed on potential criminals
b) the need for pragmatism and maturity in owning and legalizing weapons-- regardless of whether the AWB was effective or banned the right weapons"

As to a), the answer lies in the old saying--if you outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns. There are conservatively at least 100 million functioning firearms in the US. Probably a lot more. Outlawing them would only remove them from the hands of law-abiding citizens--leaving them totally exposed to assault by well-armed criminals. There is no correlation between more firearm laws and lower crime rates. Look at South Africa or Brazil for good examples.

b)Currently, the laws in all fifty states have minimum age limits for firearm ownership--thereby satisfying your valid concern regarding maturity. I'm not sure what you mean by "pragmatism." Perhaps you can explain.

I live in Alaska, one of the best armed states in the union with the most liberal gun laws. Virtually every home has firearms and many people pack heat. I fear many things here. I fear getting in a terrible accident on the Parks Highway in winter. Just this morning I passed the smoking hulk of a passenger car on my commute, and I have seen many other fatal accidents in the past few years. I fear falling into certain bodies of water around here, as they are bone cold and lethal. I fear large bruins. But I do not fear getting mugged. Even if I am unarmed, I know my fellow citizens have my back and I have theirs.
 
"If you do, how is it flawed to present evidence of guns being used for self defense? And how are actual events flawed, while theoretical possibilities are a good argument for gun control?"

Almost everyone on this board fundamentally misunderstood my first point.

One of the most important aspects of power is that great power is VERY RARELY USED.

If incidents of self-defense using guns are common, then guns obviously are not an effective deterrent because the risk they pose to criminals is not enough to prevent crimes. This is what I was getting at. I can't stand when gun rights activists cite cases of successful self-defense and when gun control advocates retort with the old "more family members are killed than criminals" adage. NEITHER OF THESE STATISTICS MATTER.

What matters is that the greater risk posed to the criminal deters him from invading a home or attacking an individual. Meaning, if there is a probability of say 25% that a gun is in the house, whether or not a gun is in a specific house will have no bearing on the criminal's actions-- the game is simultaneous, a home owner chooses to buy a gun independent of a criminal's decision to invade a home. Thus the presence and threat of gun ownership reduces crime in and of itself; the use of guns is irrelavent.
 
Hi and glad to see you're still with us. :)


If incidents of self-defense using guns are common, then guns obviously are not an effective deterrent because the risk they pose to criminals is not enough to prevent crimes. This is what I was getting at. I can't stand when gun rights activists cite cases of successful self-defense and when gun control advocates retort with the old "more family members are killed than criminals" adage. NEITHER OF THESE STATISTICS MATTER.


Well, at least you got one part right:

Statistics do NOT matter indeed.

My RIGHTS do not depend on statistics nor what "greater good" might be served.

It would not matter if the "statistics" said that 100,000 people were killed each year by handguns, while "only" 1,000 were saved, that would not justify infringing upon my god-given right.


Further, did it ever occur to you that crime is rampant in this country and the deterrent effect of an armed citizen is so low because we do not have ENOUGH guns?

Think about it; if criminals KNEW that at least 1 out of 2 or even 3 people were armed and ready to shoot criminals, what do you think would happen to the crime rate?

One more question:

You think that the deterrent effect of guns is low, and as such, that somehow justifies infringing upon the RKBA. (How you make THAT logical leap, I cannot fathom.)

Question: What do you think would happen to the crime rate if there were NO guns and NO deterrent to criminals at all?

(HINT: Look at England where they've banned all guns. They now have the highest crime rate IN THE WORLD.)


What matters is that the greater risk posed to the criminal deters him from invading a home or attacking an individual. Meaning, if there is a probability of say 25% that a gun is in the house, whether or not a gun is in a specific house will have no bearing on the criminal's actions-- the game is simultaneous, a home owner chooses to buy a gun independent of a criminal's decision to invade a home. Thus the presence and threat of gun ownership reduces crime in and of itself; the use of guns is irrelavent.

Right.

The potential that a criminal's intended victim will be armed is a deterrent to crime.
 
"Think about it; if criminals KNEW that at least 1 out of 2 or even 3 people were armed and ready to shoot criminals, what do you think would happen to the crime rate?

One more question:

You think that the deterrent effect of guns is low, and as such, that somehow justifies infringing upon the RKBA. (How you make THAT logical leap, I cannot fathom.)

Question: What do you think would happen to the crime rate if there were NO guns and NO deterrent to criminals at all?

(HINT: Look at England where they've banned all guns. They now have the highest crime rate IN THE WORLD.)"


I'm going to respond to your second question first: I NEVER said the deterrent effect of guns is low. I proposed this theory as a counter to the traditional arguments for/against guns; claiming that I think gun ownership acts as a deterrent, and therein lies value. I very much believe that the deterrent works; and I actually USED the Britain example in my first post, I believe. But in it I qualified saying that in the US, murder rates are higher, whereas in the UK, contact crime is higher. Thus there is perhaps a tradeoff. Also, I think that a good proportion of the citizenry in the US is incapable of safely owning a gun. Whether or not you'd like to admit it, having a device so capable of human destruction in a home is a tough decision to make-- and it's yours to make, I never denied that. So yeah, I think that gun ownership acts as a general deterrent to crime regardless of whether or not a specific individual owns a gun; but I don't think that necessarily justifies increasing gun ownership (there has to be an optimum level somewhere, what it is I have no idea), because many segments of the population cannot responsibly own a gun.
 
You can make all of the technical arguments you want-- none of which were backed up with sources, thus rendering them entirely subjective in my eyes--
Nor did you quote a single source to back up any of your arguments. That alone does not make you wrong, nor does it give me reason to automatically discount your assertions. This is not a court of law, the burden of proof is much much lower. Allow a little latitude. The rest of us do.

To the responder who called the terrorist argument ridiculous-- I don't know about you, but I felt a lot safer when I knew it was illegal for a militant Muslim to walk into a gun store and purchase an AK.
That really gets to the heart of the whole thing. You FELT safer. That's really the only advantage of any of these ridiculous laws, and it's far outweighed by the infringement of civil liberties, and the fact that you are not, in fact, any safer, but less safe.
 
My main points were
a) the flawed nature of gun rights arguments in using actual incidents of self-defense rather than the threat and risk imposed on potential criminals
b) the need for pragmatism and maturity in owning and legalizing weapons-- regardless of whether the AWB was effective or banned the right weapons

A) I believe that many of these arguments came about from liberals porclaiming that no gun would be effective against a threat, that no matter how well trained a person was in using the weapon, that it would be taken away and used against them

B) I don't think that you will find many people here that are saying that any 8 year old should be able to buy a rifle without their parents consent. Likewise, I would bet that most people here have never threatened another person with a gun, and if the did, then it was provocation from the other party.

For your original post,
But, assault weapons have little place in modern society.
That right there is an opinion. There is no reason to have anime in a modern society, yet I could care less if someone were to watch it.
Rifles and shotguns are designed for hunting, for the most part, and semi-automatic handguns are efficient in the realm of self-defense.
Let me remind you first off, that most so-called 'assualt weapons' are, in fact, rifles. Most rifles you claim have a real purpose, hunting, are designed on weapons originally made for the military. Mausers were originally used by many countries for war, yet today they are one of the most commonly reproduced bolt action rifle.

But weapons like an AK-47 or Uzi are not designed for either-- they are designed for warfare. How can you logically claim otherwise? An AK-47 is not meant to kill one attacker, or fell a deer-- it's meant to efficiently kill several men.
What somethign was originally meant to do has no bearing on what it is used to do. Because Jeeps and Humvee's were originally designed for military use, by your logic, no civilians should own them. Yet, they are popular because of the same reasons that semi-automatic military variations are popular. Well tested, proven, reliable, easy to use, fun. Semi-automatic versions of military weapons are just that. They have found alternate uses as target guns, defense guns and fun shooters for those who are tight on the budget.

That's not something that is necessary or wanted in the modern United States.
Again, an opinion. I would believe that if you were to conduct an internet poll, you would find a majority of people wanting to ban smoking, too. Does that mean that we should?

Thus in your poll, comparing banning assault weapons to banning a specific type of computer-- that's ridiculous. Computers have legitimate uses other than electronic crime, whereas an Uzi used in a drive-by is operating within its primary function.
And guns do too. Target shooting is a sport that I enjoy. Would you ban baseball bats if they were used in crimes? Do you honestly think that someone doing the drive-by would voluntarialy hand over their Uzi when you came for them? Also, I believe you are confusing 'assualt weapons' with submachine guns. Do you know what a semi-automatic Uzi is? Simply a huge, bulky, inaccurate 9mm handgun. What makes you think that a 9mm Uzi is any more dangerous than a 9mm Beretta 92?

Its wrong to deny fifth graders Microsoft Encarta because of electronic crime; but I think gun enthusiasts should be mature enough to recognize the cost to society legalized assault weapons incur and thus relinquish their right to own such property. Legalized assault weapons enable terrorists and criminals to acquire means without risk, and this will result in more uses of the weapons.
Do you know that any weapon legally purchased in a gun store must have a background check completed? That, if you are not a citizen, you can't buy one? And what purpose would buying a semi-automatic copy of an AK, for about $300 do? When fully automatic weapons are available in Iraq for nothing, and the Mexican borders are flooded with illegal immigrants crossing, why wouldn't they simly carry them across the border?

Simply put, I am asking how putting a bayonet mounting lug, a flash hider, and a collapasable stock on my legal rifle is going to affect national security, the safety of my neighbors, or will in any way affect you.
 
Ok, all. Toss your guns, vote for Kerry, hold hands and sing along - and the all the world's evil's will be washed away.

Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Kumbaya my Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Someone's singing Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbayah

Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's laughing, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's crying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's praying, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Someone's sleeping, Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya
Oh Lord, kumbaya

credit for this song go to peter, paul and mary, IIRC correctly.
 
I don't know where that came from, hops, seeing as I've been advocating gun ownership. Way to read!

jefnvk:

First off I know a lot of those statistics come from liberals; I was criticizing libs as much as gun rights activists who use those kinds of statistics.

The problem with much of the logic on this board is that you use poor examples in making arguments; a Jeep is NOT comparable to a weapon. Jeeps weren't designed to efficiently kill enemy soldiers, they were designed for efficient transportation! Thus, civilian models serve the same purpose-- transportation! Sure, Jeeps were designed by the military-- but for a purpose that translates flawlessly to civilian society.

"What makes you think that a 9mm Uzi is any more dangerous than a 9mm Beretta 92?"

As far as I know, many of the weapons included in the AWB are easily modifiable; for instance the Tec-9 can be made into an automatic weapon with relative ease, right?

I know all about background checks and citizen requirements. Problem is, some terrorists are citizens with clean backgrounds; and some citizens with clean backgrounds would be willing to buy weapons for terrorists. That makes a potential attack a lot easier than one in which the weapons are imported from the Third World.
 
Also, to those that contradicted my statement about AWB weapons being the favorites of criminals:

"A study of crime statistics between 1991 and 1994 by James Alan Fox, dean of the College of Criminal Justice at Northeastern University, indicated that the more violent the crime, the greater the chance a TEC-9 is used."

"Its manufacturer, the Miami-based Navegar, has advertised the gun's "excellent resistance to fingerprints,"
 
I think this quote from the same article (salon.com) is pretty interesting:

"The American people have never wanted to outlaw guns, or prohibit law-abiding American adults from owning a firearm. But the American people are a sensible lot, and they know no freedom is absolute. Freedom of speech is fundamental, but slander or incitement to riot is not. Freedom of the press is vital, but libel and kiddie porn are not.

No less obscene is the argument that any law that would make us all a little safer -- say, banning cop-killer bullets -- is the first step in a totalitarian government taking control of us all and turning our nation into a Socialist republic. Such an argument is just plain insane"


Would any of you argue that child pornography is a God-given right?
 
I know all about background checks and citizen requirements. Problem is, some terrorists are citizens with clean backgrounds; and some citizens with clean backgrounds would be willing to buy weapons for terrorists. That makes a potential attack a lot easier than one in which the weapons are imported from the Third World.

What you describe is illegal. If someone is willing to break the law, will adding another law work as a deterrent? What you suggest regarding "assault weapons" is akin to a 20 mph school zone having problems with people driving by the kindergarten at 90 miles an hour during recess, and lowering the speed limit to 15 mph in order to stop it.

FWIW, some of use here have actually used firearms in self-defense. It is not an abstract or a statistic when the reason you can still look into a mirror in the morning is riding on your hip.
 
Also, to those that contradicted my statement about AWB weapons being the favorites of criminals:

"A study of crime statistics between 1991 and 1994 by James Alan Fox, dean of the College of Criminal Justice at Northeastern University, indicated that the more violent the crime, the greater the chance a TEC-9 is used."
You are creating associations that don't exist. If a weapon is a favorite of criminals, then that means it's popular. Just because a particular weapon was used in a few high-profile crimes doesn't make it a favorite of criminals.

For the record, surveys of criminals relating to weapons used indicate that high quality revolvers are the firearms of choice for criminals.
 
Also, to those that contradicted my statement about AWB weapons being the favorites of criminals:
OK. Let's go on the assumption that statement is true. Were these "AWB weapons" obtained legally by the aforementioned criminals? Further, how many firearms of any kind used in crime are in the hands of the criminals illegally? You see where I'm going with this.
 
Also, I think that a good proportion of the citizenry in the US is incapable of safely owning a gun.
I'm going to quote the cultural anthropologist father of a childhood friend who once made a very hefty impression by telling me the following. As he put it to me:

Nobody gives a good god damn what you think. Only what you can prove.

As you can imagine, this made somewhat of an impression. As a result I tend not to make baseless accusations about entire classes of people.

Now, allow me to proceed.
According the most recent ATF stat that I can find, they estimate that as of 1997 there are roughly 65 million gun owners in the USA. For the sake of argument, let's assume that this number has not changed*, and that there is only one firearm per gun owner**.

Now, in 2001, according to the CDC, there were 29,573 firearm-related deaths. This includes all firearm related deaths, irrespective of cause. There were also 63,012 nonfatal gunshot wounds in that year.

Adding these two numbers together we get a grand total of 92,585 firearms related injuries and deaths.

Now, plugging these numbers in and solving for percentage shows us that there are approximately 0.142448% gun related injuries/deaths for every gun owner.

In other words, the rate at which firearms result in any injury or death, negligent or otherwise, even assuming that each incident was caused by a different person, is so small as to be statistically insignificant!

So much for American gunowners being incapable of safely owning firearms.

:rolleyes:

Of course, even if the rates were actually statistically significant, it wouldn't matter for me. I personally handle firearms on a daily basis, and have never had a negligent discharge. So, quite frankly, I don't really care. I am obviously capable of handling firearms in a safe manner and see no reason why my civil rights should be infringed upon because of someone else's negligence.


*Gun ownership has steadily increased every year in the United States.
**A gross oversimplification. Many gunowners possess multiple firearms.
 
say, banning cop-killer bullets --
What, exactly, is a "cop-killer bullet"?

The pornography reference is what's known as "reductio ad absurdum". Reductio ad absurdum (Latin for "reduction to the absurd", traceable back to the Greek ç̔ åéò ôï áäõíáôïí áðáãùãç, "reduction to the impossible", often used by Aristotle) is a type of logical argument where we assume a claim for the sake of argument, arrive at an absurd result, and then conclude the original assumption must have been wrong, since it gave us this absurd result. This is also known as proof by contradiction. It makes use of the law of excluded middle — a statement which cannot be false, must then be true.
 
This may be useful....

According to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, the ten most commonly used firearms in crime are, and have been for quite some time,
1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver
2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic
3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic
4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic
5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun
6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic
7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver
8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic
9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic
10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic
Notice that there is not one ‘assault rifle’ among the list.
 
No less obscene is the argument that any law that would make us all a little safer -- say, banning cop-killer bullets -- is the first step in a totalitarian government taking control of us all and turning our nation into a Socialist republic. Such an argument is just plain insane"

First off, I defy you to find even one incident in which a cop was killed with "cop killer" bullets.


Would any of you argue that child pornography is a God-given right?

Wrong. Fallacy by way of red herring. Child pornography, by it's very nature, involves violating the civil rights of another human being. Possession of ammunition, regardless of its hydraulic properties, does not.

WEAK!
Cartman.jpg
 
mpd239,

I really hate to say this, but your unwillingness to familiarize yourself with even the basic technical and factual information concerning firearms whilst continuing to make arguments which would require the aforementioned knowledge is quite intellectually dishonest.

It really doesn't matter how intelligent you fancy yourself, the bottom line is that you honestly don't know what you're talking about, and until you do, there isn't going to be any worthwhile debate to be had.

This will be my last response to this thread. I am sure most others will follow suit.
 
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