My views on gun ownership

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As far as I know, many of the weapons included in the AWB are easily modifiable; for instance the Tec-9 can be made into an automatic weapon with relative ease, right?

Actually no it can't. The ATF is all over guns that can be easily converted. This is a violation of a 1934 Federal firearms act.

This applies to AK's, FN's, AR's and a whole laundry list of other firearms. The parts are not interchangable, nor can they be easlily modified, even the recievers are different, which in effect makes it a whole new gun.

Now this isn't to say that someone with criminal intent, and a full machine shop at their disposal, and a pretty good skill set couldn't try briefly, but 10 years of jail time is on their short term employment prospects.

A recent example was Randy Weaver, and the Ruby Ridge fiasco. There are also a couple of bankrupt companies that tried this dance, but not quite to the extent of making true machhine guns. Prison time is almost a guaranteed outcome for those who try.

Get a copy of Shotgun News, this is the who's who of firearms dealers, all of the recievers that could be used in machine guns are legally destroyed, usually by flame cutting the recievers, and are useful only as disply items.
 
So far, your arguments for firearms restrictions are based on:
1) Public opinion (questionable polling data)
2) Public safety (questionable crime statistic data)

I would submit that neither of these criteria are compelling enough to invalidate the 2nd Amendment. As has been pointed out, all of us here have firearms under our direct control 24/7. In my case I've owned no less than 100 different firearms over the last 35+ years. None of them have ever been involved in a crime while they were under my control. Are you under the false assumption that guns cause crime?
 
Hi MPD239,

First, let me welcome you to THR. I know things are a little heated on this discussion, but that really just indicates that there are a lot of people who feel passionately about the issue. And, while tempers may fly around here sometimes, I asure you that we are generally a very friendly group.

On to the topic at hand:

The AWB really accomplished next to nothing. I suspect that it was designed not to control crime, but rather to aggitate the public and instill fear and loathing in the general populace. The weapons that were banned are no more deadly than any number of weapons manufactured after the ban.

The use of so-called assault weapons in crime has largely been fictionalized. The data is bogus. While these weapons have been used before, they are far, far less likely to be used than non-banned weapons, namely handguns.

As far as the weapons being easily converted to fire fully automatic, I asure you that this is not the case. Most of these weapons have actions that would be very difficult to modify. That is not to say that it couldn't be done, but rather that it would be very costly to do so, and would require specific technical expertise. Bolts would have to be remachined, trigger groups would have to be redesigned / remanufactured, gas cylinders would ne to be adjusted, metal stampings would need to be manually reformed, etc. etc. The cost would be prohibitively high, and should anything go wrong, the device will be so much scrap. Modifying a weapon for fully automatic fire is not necessarily as easy as buying a cheap conversion kit, it requires engineering talent the majority of the population does not possess.

The resistance to finger prints thing seems fairly irresponsible, and I hate to see people market products making these kinds of claims, but there is an explanation to it as well. Oils on your skin are about the most harmful possible thing to the finish (blued or otherwise) of any steel firearm component. The acids in the oils will aggressively corrode the finish, leaving it looking utterly awful. For this reason, a great many people prefer non-polished finishes like bead blast finishes, brushed finished, polymer coatings, etc. They generally don't stain as badly, and if they do stain, they generally don't show it to badly. Of course, some people go for stainless, but there is usually a significant price differential.

Remeber, too, that most military styled devices are a product of form following function. From an engineering standpoint, most so-called-assault-weapons are masterpieces. They are extremely efficient and reliable. They work, plain and simple, and they work in the most extreme conditions. They have to. And this is one of the reaons that many gun owners like the civilian versions of the military weapons. They often have the same tendency toward reliability. If you look through these forums, you will sometimes find a report of a device that would not fire, misloaded, didn't extract a spent cartridge, or suffered some material or mechanical breakdown. Generally, these posts are accompanied by swears, complaints, advice not to purchace similar devices, and so on. Most gun owners do not like their weapons to fail. For this reason, many of us are drawn to these military-styled weapons. Their primary quality is reliability.

You can't really argue crime statistics based soley on guns. There are a lot of other, far more significant factors, such as population density, local economic conditions, age, race (although studies tend to gloss that one over), geography, etc. etc. Personally, I suspect population density and economic conditions are primarily responsible for most violent crime. Removing some weapons aren't going to reduce crime, because they were never the source of the problem.
 
As far as I know, many of the weapons included in the AWB are easily modifiable; for instance the Tec-9 can be made into an automatic weapon with relative ease, right?

Wrong. Not to mention doing so (or even having an unregistered machine gun in your possession, or having unregistered machine gun parts in your posession) is a felony that will get you hard prison time.

No less obscene is the argument that any law that would make us all a little safer -- say, banning cop-killer bullets -- is the first step in a totalitarian government taking control of us all and turning our nation into a Socialist republic. Such an argument is just plain insane"


Would any of you argue that child pornography is a God-given right?

What is a "cop-killer" bullet? The very term is a creation of the sensationalist media.

Is it any round that can penetrate body armor worn by police officers? Whoops, every single rifle round in existence can do this.

Is it any handgun round that can penetrate body armor worn by cops?
Whoops, a .357 magnum can cut through Type IIA armor.

Is it anything the anti-gun folks say it is?
BINGO!

Child pornography (which, by definition, infringes upon the civil rights of the individual) doesn't even enter into the debate.:confused:
 
Raven, good for you. If you aren't recognizing the logic behind my arguments, I'd rather you leave.


"In other words, the rate at which firearms result in any injury or death, negligent or otherwise, even assuming that each incident was caused by a different person, is so small as to be statistically insignificant!

So much for American gunowners being incapable of safely owning firearms."

Justin: Your analysis misses an important bias: the rest of Americans have chosen NOT to own guns, for whatever reason. Thus applying your statistics to the 235 million or so Americans that do NOT have guns is an extrapolation. I was talking about expanding the ownership of guns, saying that many Americans aren't capable of safely owning them. You did not prove that those Americans that don't own guns can own them safely, you proved that those that DO own guns can own them safely. Obviously there is a fundamental bias at work there.

And Solo: Ok, so those are the most popular. But I would venture a guess that many of the crimes involved muggings in which you can't carry a large weapon, and so a concealable and accessible revolver or semi-automatic pistol is preferred. But the most violent crimes, like school shootings, often have involved weapons such as the Tec-9. (Columbine shootings involved a Tec-DC 9.)

The point of the child pornography argument is that there are practical limits to rights in ensuring society. Freedom is extremely important to democracy, obviously, in most cases I consider myself to be libertarian on social issues. But any sensible person realizes that it gets to the point where there is a threshold-- once you cross it, there is a tradeoff between freedom and order. Which is why the US, as much as it values freedom, is not anarchy. You can speak freely, but that doesn't mean you can scream FIRE in a theater without consequences, nor can you bring a group of white supremacists to a Jewish function and yell anti-Semitic threats.
 
Interesting Quote from Salon.com (well known for being biased...)

"The American people have never wanted to outlaw guns, or prohibit law-abiding American adults from owning a firearm. But the American people are a sensible lot, and they know no freedom is absolute. Freedom of speech is fundamental, but slander or incitement to riot is not. Freedom of the press is vital, but libel and kiddie porn are not.

No less obscene is the argument that any law that would make us all a little safer -- say, banning cop-killer bullets -- is the first step in a totalitarian government taking control of us all and turning our nation into a Socialist republic. Such an argument is just plain insane."

Freedom is an interesting concept. Freedom is very fundamental to American society, but we forget that freedom is a double edged sword. We must be free to err.

I would argue that freedom of speech may protect your ability to say or print things that are disagreeable to the public, but that doesn't mean that you won't get prosecuted for breaking the law. If I print a flier to incite a riot, publish a slanderous article, or shout protests at a politician, it is my right to open my mouth or fire up the copy machine. However, if I break any laws while doing so, that is my fault and I can probably expect to be sued or prosecuted for it.

The same is true for firearms. Whether I use such a device for good or ill, it is my choice. If I choose poorly, I can expect to be punished for my actions.

Freedom is about giving people the choice between right and wrong. Taking freedoms away are not the answer. Do we ban computers, faxes and copiers, because they could be used to print illegal material. Heck, I bet a copier could make thousands of copies of porn per hour. They are seldom used that way.
 
I know all about background checks and citizen requirements. Problem is, some terrorists are citizens with clean backgrounds; and some citizens with clean backgrounds would be willing to buy weapons for terrorists. That makes a potential attack a lot easier than one in which the weapons are imported from the Third World.

I am sure that none of us want terrorists to get guns but if someone is a citizen with a clean record, they should be able to purchase a gun. Period. You can't prosecute someone if they have not committed a crime.
 
You can scream fire in a theater, but you will be prosecuted.

However, the US doesn't cut out your tongue to prevent the possibility of screaming fire. Maybe we need a ban on tongues. They can be used improperly which is dangerous to society.
 
Siegfried_Geringer -

The Militia Act in itself is not the end-all/be-all of the individual rights argument, BUT it is extremely relevant and should be brought up. It is that word that is the source of contention....were it not for that, how would it read. "The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". Not much wiggle room there now huh?

It's not necessarily the "people" that is the source of contention, assuming that is the word you're alluding to. Anti's view the militia clause as being restrictive. As I mentioned, the Militia Act from 1792 required ENROLLMENT in the militia. Even that is irrelevant. It's a statute. It has little relevance on what the 2A meant.

The Act itself does not shine any light on whether the right referred to in the 2A extends to militia members only.

It's useless to quote Mason or any other Founder espousing a militia "composed of the body of the people." The militia is defined by statute. Other Founders, such as Hamilton, preferred a select milita. The Senate eliminated the description of the militia as composed of the "body of the people" from the 2A. It was the Congress that could determine the make-up of the militia and how they were to be armed.

Despite your disagreement, the majority of arguments I see equates the National Guard (a product of the 20th century ) with the militia spelled out by the 2A

You misunderstand. The National Guard when not in the service of the national government is a part of the well-regulated militia. What I contend is that fewer "scholars" nowadays argue that it's a state's right being protected, rather, the right extends to active militia members only because the militia clause narrows the scope of the right.

When some pro-gunners get all worked-up insisting that the National Guard is not a part of the well-regulated militia, it actually undermines an individual rights interpretation of the 2A. Why? Because then you're going to be told since we no longer have a militia, the 2A is an anachronism. However, since we still have a militia they can't use that tact to claim obselesance. Regardless of how the militia is supplied its arms, regardless of whether the militia is defined as the whole body of the people, or a less encompassing group, it's the people, regardless of whether they're in a militia that have the guaranteed right. That's why, especially when dealing with a first time poster, I wouldn't get into militia minutiae. That line is simply not pursuasive.

As I've mentioned previously, I'd just quote the 3 jurists who were contemporaneous to the Founders that said the right protects an individual right, outside of active militia duty. That keeps it simple and let the poster take it from there.

I also wouldn't quote Supreme Court cases. By your own admission, you say the Supreme Court's decision to not overturn the ASW ban is constitutional, although you disagree with it. Thus, when arguing original intent, why purposely wander into that thicket and claim the Courts support an individual 2A right, when it won't even protect the kinds of weapons that would be useful to a militia? That unnecessarily puts you on the defensive.
 
And Solo: Ok, so those are the most popular. But I would venture a guess that many of the crimes involved muggings in which you can't carry a large weapon, and so a concealable and accessible revolver or semi-automatic pistol is preferred. But the most violent crimes, like school shootings, often have involved weapons such as the Tec-9. (Columbine shootings involved a Tec-DC 9.)

Most school shootings involve Tec-9s and other such weapons? Proof please. You yourself said that this was a guess.
 
Also, I think that a good proportion of the citizenry in the US is incapable of safely owning a gun.

It's an interesting point of view, and I applaud you for being open about it. I believe this concept lies at the heart of most arguments against private gun ownership. Is a citizen with a rifle dangerous? YES, most certainly. Probably a whole lot more dangerous than you realize. A trained citizen with a rifle can control a radius out to four hundred yards and beyond. One hundred yards--a football field--is point blank range. At fifty yards it's very difficult to miss. A citizen with the freedom of speech is also extremely dangerous. A citizen with access to the press is even more dangerous. His words can enflame millions, and cause untold destruction and chaos. A citizen with access to the ballot box is even more lethal, as he can elect madmen.

The bottom line is, we've heard all this before. The message is always the same--the people cannot be trusted. They must be RULED. Disarming them is a key element of this plan. Indeed it is essential.

I find arguments that armed citizens will create bloodbaths as absurd as the archaic arguments against a free press. The state I live in disproves the notion, while gun control paradises such as DC and Chicago are crime ridden.
 
Now this isn't to say that someone with criminal intent, and a full machine shop at their disposal, and a pretty good skill set couldn't try briefly, but 10 years of jail time is on their short term employment prospects.

A recent example was Randy Weaver, and the Ruby Ridge fiasco. There are also a couple of bankrupt companies that tried this dance, but not quite to the extent of making true machhine guns. Prison time is almost a guaranteed outcome for those who try.

Just as a side note.....Randy Weaver was never charged with trying to convert semi's to full auto. He was charged with selling a "sawed off shotgun." Which BTW he maintains to this day that it was the legal lenth when he sold it....AND this was a charge he was aquitted anyway.
 
Raven, good for you. If you aren't recognizing the logic behind my arguments, I'd rather you leave.
Thanks for the laugh.

Actually, it's not logical to claim that you have the facts when you do not. I've seen you state several things in this thread that are factually wrong. I've confonted you about it twice and asked you to clarify why the features of so-called assault weapons are dangerous, and what they do. You've chosen to ignore that, probably because you don't know.

Anyway, that's it. I'm done wasting my time. This is a waste of your time, too.
And Solo: Ok, so those are the most popular. But I would venture a guess that many of the crimes involved muggings in which you can't carry a large weapon, and so a concealable and accessible revolver or semi-automatic pistol is preferred. But the most violent crimes, like school shootings, often have involved weapons such as the Tec-9. (Columbine shootings involved a Tec-DC 9.)
Explain the difference between the Tec-9 and a .38 revolver, and how those differences serve to facilitate a school shooting.

I'm not even going to return to the thread; that's how confident I am that despite your ill-placed arrogance, you'll be unable to provide even the simplest justification for your hyperbole.
 
Randy Weaver was never charged with trying to convert semi's to full auto. He was charged with selling a "sawed off shotgun." Which BTW he maintains to this day that it was the legal lenth when he sold it....AND this was a charge he was aquitted anyway

No ???? Shirlock. Being as Ruby Ridge is about 35 miles from my house in Northern Idaho, I think I am reaonably aware with the facts. The reason the Idaho jury aquitted him ( which the Feds were mightly PO'd about ) was that they felt the Feds used unreasonble force, and didn't properly serve a search warrant.

It is still altering a firearm to a illegal configuration. I wasn't trying to say he was attempting to make full auto's, just the severity of the consequences for ATF violations.
 
Raven: Tec-9 is capable of holding a 36 bullet clip, .38 revolver holds 6. .38 takes far longer to reload its 6 bullet capacity than loading a Tec 9. I assume a .38 fires a more powerful shot.


"Most school shootings involve Tec-9s and other such weapons? Proof please. You yourself said that this was a guess."
I quoted a study above that found the more violent a crime, the greater chance that a Tec-9 was involved.

Cosmoline: Don't misinterpret what I said, I didn't say that in arguing that guns should be illegal! An earlier poster used my theory of gun ownership as deterrent to justify expanding gun ownership to all citizens; that's why I said that.
 
"Most school shootings involve Tec-9s and other such weapons? Proof please. You yourself said that this was a guess."
I quoted a study above that found the more violent a crime, the greater chance that a Tec-9 was involved.

The (JBT)BATFE contradicts your study.
 
I was talking about expanding the ownership of guns, saying that many Americans aren't capable of safely owning them

So now, of course, it comes out. The fundamental question: can an ordinary person be trusted not to commit murder?

Literally millions of people will go out hunting this season. Yet for all these guns, handled by people from all walks of life, and all backgrounds - the number of accidents is incredibly small. Murders are basically unheard-of.

How is it that most people cannot own a gun safely? Are most people murderers? If I hand you or your father or your best friend a gun, will they suddenly go out on a killing spree?

But the most violent crimes, like school shootings, often have involved weapons such as the Tec-9. (Columbine shootings involved a Tec-DC 9.)

First of all, "school shootings" are incredibly rare. That you even mention them shows how much the media have drilled in scary images regarding guns into the American psyche. How many school shootings have taken place where you went to school? One a year? One every five years? None?

Second of all, do you know what the most dangerous weapons were in Columbine? It was the killers' sawed-off shotguns. That's right, a common hunting shotgun is more dangerous in close quarters than a crappy Tec-9 "assault pistol."
 
No ???? Shirlock. Being as Ruby Ridge is about 35 miles from my house in Northern Idaho, I think I am reaonably aware with the facts. The reason the Idaho jury aquitted him ( which the Feds were mightly PO'd about ) was that they felt the Feds used unreasonble force, and didn't properly serve a search warrant.


Sorry Watson, I didn't know that I needed to be Randy's neighbor to know the facts of the case. What search warrant? He was not charged for anything found at his house, but for a sale to an informant. He was aquitted because Gerry Spence chewed up and spit out the feds case, or lack of one. And BTW, you did imply that he was making full auto's.
 
Your analysis misses an important bias: the rest of Americans have chosen NOT to own guns, for whatever reason. Thus applying your statistics to the 235 million or so Americans that do NOT have guns is an extrapolation.

Agreed that my numbers only apply to gun owners. However, you have yet to actually back up your statement via fact or even anecdotal evidence. Argumentum ad Ignorantiam (assuming something is true because it isn't proven false) by way of Dicto Simpliciter (sweeping generalization.)

I was talking about expanding the ownership of guns, saying that many Americans aren't capable of safely owning them. You did not prove that those Americans that don't own guns can own them safely, you proved that those that DO own guns can own them safely. Obviously there is a fundamental bias at work there.
Implicit in this statement is the assumption that gun control is ok because those who do not choose to own guns are negligent in handling firearms. This begs the question that if they choose to eschew firearms ownership, why should we be concerned with whether or not they can safely handle a firearm? This is like saying that speedboats should be outlawed because those who don't own them can't possibly know how to operate them safely.

You are, of course, ignoring the facts that more Americans own guns now than even two decades ago, that the shooting sports enjoyed a growth rate in excess of 25% last year, and that rates of accidental shootings have been declining for at least the last decade.

On top of that, I'll throw a large heap of anecdotal evidence your way.
When I was in school I was one of the range safety officers/instructors for our university's rifle and pistol club. I taught many people how to safely handle firearms, including a very large number of foreign students who had never even seen a firearm outside of the movies. We never had even one accidental shooting.
 
mpd239:

You assert that we are ALL engaging in ad hominem attacks and retreating back to tired old Second Amendment arguments.

You ask that we revert to your original question. To me, you original point centers on your assertion that:

"...it's (an 'assault weapon') meant to efficiently kill several men. That's not something that is necessary or wanted in the modern United States.... "

Please, please answer a very simple question as I've posed a few times now: WHAT IF you, your mother, your father, your friends, your children, your family are ATTACKED by "Several Men" (!).

Will you allow me to defend myself and family from one attacker, but not two? Three, but not five? Ten, but not twenty?

Of course, there's a point at which it becomes absurd, but what purpose, exactly, does an arbitrary magazine capacity limit ON LAW-ABIDING CITIZENS serve?

Law-breakers can just fashion their own magazines out of simple sheet-metal. They can also do a very easy procedure and illegally (per a 1934 law) make a still-legal AK-47 clone into a full-auto (and inaccurate BTW) "assault rifle".

More likely, they will just bring along a "gang' of rapists or plunderers.

I hope your Political Science professors have at least thought you that young men in groups can easily be motivated to commit all sorts of appalling acts, whether with fists, sticks, swords or guns. Legislation alone does not stop anyone. FORCE, or the threat of force stops such acts.

Furthermore, the real-world statistics for gunfights range from 30% to 90% of shots MISSED by trained law-enforcement agents. With a 10-round magazine limit, you are restricting the BEST-TRAINED to only incapacitating 1-3 attackers.

The entire point of self-defense is to "efficiently kill several men". Very, very few people really want to do so, but I personally want to be adequately prepared to so do if needed.

If you watch war movies or even news clips of war footage, you often see soldiers fighting in bombed-out buildings. Those buildings are no different than the buildings in which we all work, play and live. They are the result of one part of a society thinking it can TAKE what it wants from some other part of society. That part of society that can kill enough people to make the rest capitulate becomes "The Government". This is still happening all over the world.

In the United States, the Founding Fathers - giants upon whose shoulders we all stand - said "Not Here, Not In Our Country."

Refugees from totalitarian regimes have flocked to the USA, saying "Never Again." Every part of U.S. society is as well-armed as any other.

You may consider this barbaric, but think about what ONE ITEM you would want in your domicile if both the electricity and all communications went out in NYC for a week. I'm guessing it's a firearm with a heck of a lot of rounds.

This is the heart of our passion for the basic right to keep and bear arms and our hatred of silly, feel-good legislation like the so-called "Assault Weapons" Ban. That ban had nothing to do with criminals and everything to do with eventually banning all guns from American citizens. One step at a time.

Why do you think some politicians wanted to create the term "assault weapons"?

If you can't think about that, I don't think you can think.
 
"Second of all, do you know what the most dangerous weapons were in Columbine? It was the killers' sawed-off shotguns. That's right, a common hunting shotgun is more dangerous in close quarters than a crappy Tec-9 "assault pistol."

As far as I know, the guns produced about equal casualties; and the Tec-9s in a much shorter amount of time.

Not a common shotgun, either, SAWED OFF-- condemned even by the NRA as illegal. I mention school shootings because the purpose of outlawing assualt weapons is not to eradicate most crimes, but to prevent the most violent crimes from happening.

Raven I missed the second part of your question.

How they facilitate a school shooting? Are you joking? Let's say the kid has 50% accuracy, for argument's sake. Tec-9 he kills 18 people per clip, say 2 seconds to aim and 1 second per shot, 3 seconds each, he goes through a clip in 1:48, killing 18 people.
With a .38, let's say he takes the same 2 seconds to aim, same 1 second to shoot, so 3 seconds. But let's say it takes 30 to reload his weapon. Takes 18 seconds to empty the gun, killing 3 people. Plus 30 to reload. 48 seconds to kill 3 people. That's 7.5 people compared to 18 in 1:48.
I'd say there's a serious advantage to the Tec-9.

*The times here may not be technically accurate, they are just used to illustrate the situation.
 
Tec-9 is capable of holding a 36 bullet clip, .38 revolver holds 6. .38 takes far longer to reload its 6 bullet capacity than loading a Tec 9.
And your point is? Outlawing Tec9's would only force those who would have used them to switch to a different weapon. Doesn't matter if you're shot with a Tec-9 or a Glock. Dead is dead.
BTW, you can breathe a little easier though, Intratec went out of business a couple of years ago.

I quoted a study above that found the more violent a crime, the greater chance that a Tec-9 was involved.
Cars that are painted red are involved in a statistically larger number of accidents and speeding violations. Should we also outlaw red cars?
 
"The entire point of self-defense is to "efficiently kill several men". Very, very few people really want to do so, but I personally want to be adequately prepared to so do if needed."

Can you give me one example in which you will be attacked by more than 3 men at your home?

...OTHER than foreign invasion or another conspiracy theory.
 
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