Mythbusters: Bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[Owen Sparks]

Sunday night the Mythbusters show will test the theory that a man armed with a knife can cover seven yards faster than a man can draw and fire a concealed handgun.

Everyone watch.

 

[saltydog452]

Can John play?

salty

 

[1KPerDay]

Count how many times they sweep themselves with the guns they use, or wave them around with their fingers on the triggers. Fun drinking game!

 

[Certaindeaf]

I guess the test would be if one can draw and fire (and hit) within 1.5 seconds. Sounds like it'll be a lot of hoopty over such a simple thing

 

[10thMtn]

My favorite part of "The Expendables" is the constant argument that is made over who's quicker -- the knife or the bullet! I know they won't be throwing knives as part of the debate (or maybe they will), but it makes for a bit of fun. From most of the people I've seen going through CC classes over the years, my money is on the knife!!

 

[kBob]

In a class taught by Massad Ayoob I took only one time did the Tueller Drill prove wrong. That is that a knife weilder at 21 feet can advance and knife a guy before a person can draw from a holstered duty rig.

THis is a standard police and private citizen legal defense for shooting a knife wielder and as originally discribed was from a duty holster and not concealed.

It was claimed that the fact that the only kinifeman in the class that was unsussessful was a 67 year old male three weeks after a heart attack made the failed drill non representative.

Ayoob had an interesting film on blades verses guns that was a bit scary.

As some of you are aware I am a gun guy, but things like the Tueller Drill make me respect the knife and other contact weapons and you guys know I carry a (ususally more than one) knife and a cane. I can but hope those Myth Busters don't screw up a good and reasonable defense.

-kBob

and as to knife verses gun in the movies "The Magnificant Seven" comes to mind, though silly.

 

[scramasax]

I'll be recording it. Be driving back from the blade show. Used to be a trainer and in 1000+ classes only got shot once in the foot. By then I hand already done front and back throat cuts and eviscerated him. We were using issue pistols and simunition. I hope that the lessons have saved some lives. It sure surprised a lot of them.

Cheers,

ts

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

Just for fun, do we get to have them try the knife drill with either Jerry Miculek or Todd Jarrett?

 

[Certaindeaf]

^
Some people can draw and fire pretty fast.. don't blink.

 

[rcmodel]

Only if they are expecting an attack, and happen to be wearing the race gun rig under their jacket..

I'd say caught cold with no warning, from a typical CCW holster, none of the above could draw on a 7 yard knife attack in time to do any good.

rc

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I'm sure they'll build some idiotic robotic test rig that starts the robot with the knife moving at the robot with the gun at the same time and completely fail to realize that human reaction time is a huge factor in the Tueller Drill.

 

[highorder]

I'm sure they'll build some idiotic robotic test rig that starts the robot with the knife moving at the robot with the gun at the same time and completely fail to realize that human reaction time is a huge factor in the Tueller Drill.

Probably. It's entertainment.

Watching the Tueller drill would be boring to most people. Actually performing it might garner a bit more interest, kinda like golf on TV vs. actually swinging the clubs.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

Just for fun, do we get to have them try the knife drill with either Jerry Miculek or Todd Jarrett?

Or Bob Munden?

Only if they are expecting an attack, and happen to be wearing the race gun rig under their jacket..

I'd say caught cold with no warning, from a typical CCW holster, none of the above could draw on a 7 yard knife attack in time to do any good.

That's what I like about Bob. He doesn't wear the cut down rigs or use the modified guns with the weird hammers like Cisco does.

However, I agree with the last statement. None of them would fare any better against an unsuspected attack with a gun in a CCW rig. No chance.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Only if they are expecting an attack, and happen to be wearing the race gun rig under their jacket..

I'd say caught cold with no warning, from a typical CCW holster, none of the above could draw on a 7 yard knife attack in time to do any good.

rc

What you say is fairly true. There's little one can do against a dedicated assassin.

 

[joecil]

I saw a training film year ago with the very same point proved. The reason is simple really and also the same reason you don't tail gate at high speed in your car. That is reaction time as it takes time for your eyes to register to the brain what it sees and then the brain to send a signal after convincing the mind what is happening to send a response.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The big difference would be who moves first. If the knife guy starts with the blade in his hand and charges an unsuspecting victim he would be half way there before the shooter even knows what is happening.

If the man with the pistol were allowed to start with it in his hand and initiate the attack there is no way anyone could draw a knife from concealment and sprint seven yards before being shot.

All things being equal with both ready and both drawing their weapons from concealment on command would be interesting as a human being can outrun a drag racer for the first five yards.

The last guy that charged at me (without a knife) caught a front thrust kick in the gut. It turned out to be a case of mistaken identy on his part but even if he had a knife the worst that could have happened to me would have beed a survivable cut on the leg. I easily could have drawn and shot him as he lay on the ground trying to get over having the wind knocked out of him. As it turned out he thought that I was some guy named Lenny who was messing around with his wife. A straight driving kick is really the best way to stall an attack though most people don't practice Karate and could not get their foot up above their waist if their life depended on it. Funny thing is it just might.

 

[Onward Allusion]

Knife will win almost every time against a CC situation as long as the "assailant" is in halfway decent shape. Even in an open carry scenario with the typical snap holster or active retention holster, it is unlikely for the typical person to draw before the knife wielder reaches the shooter. With an open carry tension retention, then there's a good chance for the shooter. Caveat being that the shooter is expecting the knife holder.

Try it with a friend and a red marker as the knife...

 

[Certaindeaf]

^
This is perhaps all tremendously precious but a man can pop an unsuspecting grape from afar without moving one step with a firearm. What does this prove?

 

[Onward Allusion]

Certaindeaf
^
This is perhaps all tremendously precious but a man can pop an unsuspecting grape from afar without moving one step with a firearm. What does this prove?

Do the experiment a few times then come back with your results. Not talking race rig. Draw from IWB. Draw from 6 O'Clock & 4 O'Clock with the typical snap retention holster. Do it from a pocket holster.

What does this prove? It proves that one should maintain distance from their assailant regardless of knife, bat, or gun.

 

[Certaindeaf]

^
I understand. So you're saying it's like gravity and a constant. I can accept this. Well, so are most things so what's the point in the exercise of being able to draw and hit in 1.5 seconds save for stoppping some berserker starting from 7 yards? The question still remains.. who is your assailant? Figure that out and you're gold. Just keep fifty yards from everybody? nevermind

 

[Certaindeaf]

It just seems nonsense or contrived to assert/argue about what is apparently taken as a given. If it’s a given, what’s there to assert/argue? All I said, or am trying to say, is sometimes it might be a good thing to be able to draw and hit within 1.5 seconds. Pretty simple.

 

[joecil]

When I was in my early 20's I went to a fair and one of the attractions was a quick draw booth. Now you bought 3 shots for a $1 and if you beat the guy/gal across from you a prize was given.

Now for how it worked. They had a single action pistol in a holster, you was given a double action pistol all was loaded with blanks. Now you have no holster and have to simply pull the trigger before they draw, cock and fire their gun. Now only rule is they got to make the first move so you had to anticipate their slightest move as their hand was about 4" from the gun. Needless to say it cost me $5 before I figure out even though I have fast hands they would win every time if I waited for them to flinch. Now for a while that group, The Gator Gun Fighters of S. Florida had a women that was the nationals quick draw champion. They are fast however I found that if we reversed the rules I could beat them every time. It is a simple fact of nature, response time is slower than someone committed to taking action.

 

[10thMtn]

Let's go one further. Seven feet...facing...knife draw and throw v. draw and shoot. My money is on the knife still if the rules are the same...CC holster v. CC thrower.

 

[Nushif]

A straight driving kick is really the best way to stall an attack though most people don't practice Karate and could not get their foot up above their waist if their life depended on it.

Interestingly enough in some disciplines of karate a kick above the waistline (or more accurately above the midpoint of the thigh) is considered bad economy of motion, by its nature telegraphed and unbalancing, and thus a bad idea in a fight.

 

[10thMtn]

Interestingly enough in some disciplines of karate a kick above the waistline (or more accurately above the midpoint of the thigh) is considered bad economy of motion, by its nature telegraphed and unbalancing, and thus a bad idea in a fight.

You win the prize, sir. In knife defense combatives, THE only kick is the kick to the knees. The kick to the knees not only positions your body away from the blade, it threatens the stability of the attacker and could end the fight quickly. Anything thigh or above leaves an easy target for a slash or stab wound! I appreciate those Martial Arts that believe in high kicks, but they fight with a different set of rules than other arts. I am sure there are a few who are quick enough/powerful enough to pull off an occasional jumping roundhouse to the head, but they are few and far between.