Mythbusters: Bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[Owen Sparks]

Interestingly enough in some disciplines of karate a kick above the waistline (or more accurately above the midpoint of the thigh)

We never advocate kicking above the solar plexus. Low kicks to the legs and crotch are very effective at hurting an opponant but in order to bodily stop him in a run you must hit him at least belt buckle high, and you must be moving forward. You can't just stick your foot out and stop a charging man. He will bowl you over. You have to have your body weight in motion behind the kick. There have beed several VERY efective examples of a front thrust kick decking a someone in recent MMA fights.

 

[10thMtn]

We never advocate kicking above the solar plexus. Low kicks to the legs and crotch are very effective at hurting an opponant but in order to bodily stop him in a run you must hit him at least belt buckle high, and you must be moving forward. You can't just stick your foot out and stop a charging man. He will bowl you over. You have to have your body weight in motion behind the kick. There have beed several VERY efective examples of a front thrust kick decking a someone in recent MMA fights.

I think we've gotten ourselves into a quandary regarding two different situations. You are describing a stop to a charging target, and I believe Nushif (and my comment supporting him) regards a parrying attack.

In regards to a charging attack with a knife, in Army Knife Defense Combatives, we would not recommend a kick to "stop him in a run." It may work in a MMA fight, but in combat or a knife fight, it will likely end in failure, injury, and possibly death.

I've trained with many SOFs from varying countries, and we all train similarly in this situation -- we want the attacker to charge like this. It is the best of all situations because it is the easiest to defend against. But a trained knife handler will not charge unless you are going to shoot, but again, we've gotten a little off topic, and I'll stop myself from going down this road further. My apologies...

 

[Deltaboy1984]

You wait and move at the last minute while striking him with your cane then drawing your gun and calling 911.

Mindset and awareness will even the scales with dealing with a determined knife man.

 

[TimboKhan]

You wait and move at the last minute while striking him with your cane then drawing your gun and calling 911.

Mindset and awareness will even the scales with dealing with a determined knife man.

I am a great big giant of a man, and there isn't a whole lot anyone can do to stop even me from covering 7 yards very fast. My hallway happens to be almost exactly that distance, and I can cover that tout suite.

Assuming you weren't kidding, waiting to move at the last minute in a game of seconds is going to result with a knife sticking out of one of your body parts. Plus, you advocate essentially doing three things at the same moment. Mindset is hugely important, awareness is hugely important, but training the kind of skills your advocating here is well beyond just simple mindset and awareness, especially in a high stress, rapid, unexpected attack.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

In an Awebuck class Loui demonstrated this. At 10 yards Loui was just able to get it drawn and a shot off. Loui is a quick draw.

 

[10thMtn]

waiting to move at the last minute in a game of seconds is going to result with a knife sticking out of one of your body parts.

Agree. But that brings up a salient point: what would one do under such situation? Training is the only answer. Training to the point where an attack like this becomes nothing more than an instant reaction guided by muscle memory. As a former Marine, you undoubtedly at least got a taste of this training. However, most people don't go through anything to prepare them. Therefore, the common reaction would be to freeze and panic. Hence, why I don't think most CC persons could draw and fire in time.

But, fortunately, it is highly unlikely anyone will be attacked by a crazed knife-wielder without any provocation! Thank goodness for that!

 

[RatDrall]

You win the prize, sir. In knife defense combatives, THE only kick is the kick to the knees. The kick to the knees not only positions your body away from the blade, it threatens the stability of the attacker and could end the fight quickly. Anything thigh or above leaves an easy target for a slash or stab wound!

Why wouldn't you move off of his center line, so that if his blade does carry through, it hits empty space where you were standing?

 

[Nushif]

Why wouldn't you move off of his center line, so that if his blade does carry through, it hits empty space where you were standing?

I don't think limiting your kick to thigh and lower and moving off the centerline are mutually exclusive. Whereas I think any kind of meaningful movement and chest height kicks are.

 

[Vonderek]

This whole business about split second timing, moving and kicking seems ok if you have that skillset and are in a dojo or MMA ring but doesn't seem like an effective response if you have the misfortune of being in close quarters and limited lighting like a hallway, stairwell, or amongst cars in a crowded parking lot.

 

[Nushif]

Naaaw. "Moving off the line" might just mean slamming your back into a wall, or turning sideways or anything else like that, I don't think most people here are talking about a picture perfect side step thingie. To me at least it just means trying to not be where the knife is coming down at.
When we trained we usually trained for it requiring the least amount of you know ... finesse, pizzaz, skills, you name it.
In an alleyway you can still desperately turn sideways while flailing your leg at the bad guy's knee and then hopefully run off. What that translates to in training is "stepping off the line" and "inducing structural damage to a weight bearing joint" and "creating distance."
But really what is being talked about here is a mad scramble to stay away from the knife edge, hurting the guy's or gal's knee and taking off as fast a you can ot the closest copper. 8)
It's like people here "going to the LGS and purchasing a firearm" instead of going to the gunshop and buying a toy or gun. 8)

 

[10thMtn]

I don't think limiting your kick to thigh and lower and moving off the centerline are mutually exclusive. Whereas I think any kind of meaningful movement and chest height kicks are.

This whole business about split second timing, moving and kicking seems ok if you have that skillset and are in a dojo or MMA ring but doesn't seem like an effective response if you have the misfortune of being in close quarters and limited lighting like a hallway, stairwell, or amongst cars in a crowded parking lot.

Both of these statements are addressing the original situation of a charge with knife. Totally different than what "mentality" is being offered during a "standoff" or parry situation. I was hoping my comment about the confusion would get us back on track...my bad...

Go back to my last post regarding a charge. The Marine and I agree that the only "offensive" move requires lots of training (either military combatives or street-level/serious MA). Most folks don't have that (or like me, have stopped working on it). So, I'm going to be slower, and others are going to freeze.

For most folks, I'd advise (IF this unlikely scenario rears its head) to grab the closest chair or to turn, run, and take cover behind something that puts distance between you and the charging attacker. You're not going to draw and fire in time -- trust me.

For those who are trained, the instinctive move taught FIRST to all SOF personnel is step to the side, rotate torso, deflect knife-holding arm, and counterattack once the motion has been re-routed (hard to write for explanation) but it's the basic kali move taught in this circumstance. There are other options too -- many more. This is usually the first.

 

[fineredmist]

If the situation is two people, 1 armed with a knife and the other a holstered handgun, and the knife holder attackes the shooter may or may not get off a shot. Will the shot instantly put the attacker down? Not likely. The attacker with the knife will be able to inflict some serious damage before he goes down. The probable result will be 2 very seriously wounded people.

It the knife wielder attackes without warning the gunman is on the short end every time. A trained knife fighter can inflict fatal injuries with 1 or 2 well placed hits and the fight is over.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Moving off the center line is a way to dodge the bad guys first attempt but what about the second? He is still healthy and on his feet. Will that buy you enough time to draw and fire? Side stepping and dodging need to be combined with low circular kicks to take the opponants feet out fron under him whenever possible. You can't accomplish this without some momentum either. You should move foreward and off at at a 45 degree angle and 'clothes line' him with your low kick.

 

[PRM]

OK, I see where this is going!!!

Now, I got to add a 21 foot tape measure to my EDC, and figure out how to get the BG armed with a knife to stand still while I measure the distance between us. LOL

I'll keep my gun - engaging a knife wielding attacker with a knife is not on my list. Besides, machetes are not on the CCW list.

A trained knife fighter can inflict fatal injuries with 1 or 2 well placed hits and the fight is over.

Maybe - trained shooters can also end a conflict rather quickly

 

[kBob]

Guys LEOs and trained private citizens have been dealing with the Tueller drill for decades now.

The point is that the odds are if you are confronted with a person with a knife in hand at 7 (seven) yards or less and you take no action then that person can most likely inflict injuries on you. PERIOD. STOP.

The lesson to be learned is to TAKE ACTION. In my state the person has offered you deadly force, I would likely go ahead and draw or atleast "unsnap" and place my hand on the pistol grip in a good fashoin if I were an LEO and would certainly consider it as an armed citizen.

One of the other main points of the Tueller drill was to NOT FIXATE on the firearm. React to the attack in a way likely to have some effect.

10th Mountain states off the attackers line. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT! If I am carrying on my right and the attacker is also right handed I will most likley step to my left while attempting to draw OR PERFORM SOME OTHER DEFENSE.

Stepping to the enmy weapon side makes it harder for him to react to your move.

If possible turn your off side toward the attacker, this guards your own weapon arm and the weapon as it is being drawn. It may well be that you may need to use your off hand to block, parry, or pass the enemy weaponor its arm. While this is likely to cause your off arm to be injured it may give you the time to complete your draw and bring your side arm to bear.

Remember to shoot until the threat has ceased.

With some of us there is an excellent chance that our off hand will be holding a cane.....in which case the firearm just became the secondary weapon of defense though bet your bippy it will come out as soon as possible.

The important things the Tueller drill teaches are.

1. Situational awareness....note that there is a threat

2. begin preparation for defense BEFORE the rush starts

3. do not fixate on one type of defense and keep in mind a firearm is not a magic wand.

Whether or not some bozos on TV can claim decades of LEO experience and training is a myth is besides the point......sometimes myths are excellent teaching tools.

-kBob

'nuff said.

 

[Zoogster]

The Tueller Drill is not to demonstrate that you have already lost inside 7 yards.

The purpose is to instill in the minds of especially LEO that if you have someone within short range with a knife you need to have your gun out (or if with several LEOs some do) because the knife wielder can react faster than you can draw and fire.


However once you have drawn and aimed you no longer need to fire if the person has not rushed towards you. You do at that point have the advantage, of course distance is still your friend.
Once the gun is out and ready the shooter can react faster than the knife wielder. So LEO and others always need to get their gun out of the holster as soon as someone with 10-20 yards is acting hostile with a knife, because they know that within 7 yards the knife will be doing damage if the attacker decides to attack and the gun is not already out.
However once the gun is out and aimed you have control up to I would say at least 3 yards before you need to start shooting.

The issue being resolved by the Tueller Drill was to correct some who would try to reason with a knife wielder inside short range, or try to deploy less lethal options within that range without adequate lethal force backup. Some would know they had a gun to fall back to if other options failed, and so would wait too long before deploying it and be vulnerable. They felt overly confident in being able to fall back on their firearm that was still in its holster.




Also even if someone can in fact reach you, and they do rush you and inflict a wound with a knife, the injuries delivered with the firearm afterwards may prevent additional wounds. So just because the person with a knife can inflict some injury before being shot does not mean they won the fight. The Tueller drills tend to give that impression.
While there is certainly some people good with a knife, most citizens are a lot better with a gun. A bullet penetrates to depth where it is shot, a knife requires the user to create the injury.
So inflicting injury with a gun favors the novice over inflicting injury with a knife.
Someone putting up an active defense can increase the time it takes to get stabs to the torso, and make it more difficult for the attacker to put slashes or stabs where they want. The defender is still going to get cut, potentially bad, but they will have more time to get a gun into play than just the time it takes for the knife wielder to reach them before they are out of the fight.
Not much time, but a second or two extra turns the tables.
Someone can take most of the injuries to extremities trying to keep distance backing up and blocking for an extra second or two while they are deploying their firearm, and then still deliver effective fire that stops the attack.
No injuries is certainly preferable and a better survival strategy, but if the distance is closed an active defense and not just being completely consumed with getting the gun into play can increase the time available to get the gun out by reducing the effectiveness and accuracy of the knife injuries.

 

[sixgunner455]

Out of ~20 regulars at our club shoots, there are 2-3 who could probably get a shot off on someone running at them with a knife before getting cut.

These are every day people, ranging from oldsters to kids in their early twenties. There are three brothers who show up, young guys, very fit, tall, athletic. One of those guys has the speed, coordination, and accuracy to where I think he could prevail, holster to shot. He's usually tops in any stage he shoots - he's just wicked fast and accurate. The other two didn't quite get the genetic combination he did, and are usually halfway down the stats list. The next guy on the list is in his seventies, but he's been playing this game since he was the young buck who could do all that.

The rest of us, it's a crap shoot as to whether or not we'd even get the gun out, but the key for everyone are the things Kbob said: ACT. If you don't, if you wait, you're probably dead.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

meh, nevermind.

 

[Hunter125]

The last guy that charged at me (without a knife) caught a front thrust kick in the gut....A straight driving kick is really the best way to stall an attack

This is what I was thinking about. I would be very interested to see how the Tueller Drill would go if the goal was not to shoot, but to defend. Martial arts trained folks might fare pretty well, but I wonder how the average Joe would do.

 

[zhyla]

I had a "false alarm" incident at work one time. The details don't matter, but out of the blue I had a lot of loud noise and two people charging full speed directly at me from 30 feet away. By the time I had turned around and realized they were (friendly) coworkers just screwing around they were 10 feet away and I had my hand on my knife but hadn't pulled it from my pocket yet. Drawing my pocket knife was my first reaction but I didn't get very far with it until too late.

The problem isn't that I draw a knife slowly or that I draw it slowly under stress. Most of that time was being too slow to react to a sudden change in my surroundings.

 

[Owen Sparks]

The show last night concluded that with both Adam and Jamie ready, the knife man won against the quick draw every time provided he started within 18 feet. It should be noted that he was not drawing from concealment but from a cowboy rig with his hand just a few inches away like in the opening scene of the TV show Gunsmoke.

 

[Owen Sparks]

There is a world of difference between a jumping roundhouse to the head and a simple straight thrust to the lower abdomen. The average healthy person CAN be taught to do this effectivly. I know, I have been teaching it for over 20 years. That being said, the low round kicks to the legs are also very effectice and can literally sweep an opponants feet right out from under him or damage his ACL to the point that he can not walk. In order to use it on a charging opponant you must meet his force with force at a 45 degree angle while moving off to the side geting your head and vitals out of the way and that takes a fair amount of skill and training. There is NOTHING that you can do while standing still that will work as momentum is on his side. Even if you shoot him his body is still coming forward with a knife unless you hit him low in the brain stem. If he only lives a second or two he can still stab you if you don't move or physically stop him with forward momentum of your own.

Movement is the key.

 

[hso]

The objective of the Teuller drill was to teach officers that their previous confidence about what distance they could realistically expect to be able stop an attacker by drawing and firing their weapon were grossly off of reality. It was not to set a fixed distance or be fixed for everyone. It was only intended to break the overconfidence in what was and was not a safe distance.

I've been the "attacker" in many training sessions (and in one impromptu "training" session). Officers who've only watched videos instead of having direct experience in a safe setting are usually overconfident in their ability to use their firearm to deal with a threat within these distances. Armed citizens rarely get any opportunity to learn these lessons and rarely take any steps to learn how to deal with realistic armed attacks that initiate well within these ranges.

If you want to introduce some realism into these drills have 3 or more people play the role of the attacker so the defender doesn't know which one is going to initiate the attack. This is still unrealistic in that the defender knows it is coming. Want to make it more realistic? Run it over and over where no attack occurs before an attack is initiated by one of the multiple possible attackers. You'll see real differences between static and dynamic scenarios and between trained and untrained defenders.

BTW -
"This whole business about split second timing, moving and kicking seems ok if you have that skillset and are in a dojo or MMA ring but doesn't seem like an effective response if you have the misfortune of being in close quarters and limited lighting like a hallway, stairwell, or amongst cars in a crowded parking lot."

Done it in a parking lot at night and it was a close thing. I assure you I attribute my success to luck as well as training.

 

[rcmodel]

I got to think a skinny little crack brained PCP user could run faster for 30 feet then Jamie too!

rc

 

[Lucifer_Sam]

I think the lesson we should all have taken away from that mythbusters episode is that using a rocket to shoot off rocket arrows is really, really cool. And we need to push for legislation allowing us all to do that regularly.