Mythbusters: Bringing a knife to a gun fight.

[wally]

I'd say caught cold with no warning

Ah, there's the rub. Having a weapon is a necessary but not sufficient condition. Situational awareness to avoid being "caught cold" is the key!

 

[Zoogster]

removed

 

[damoc]

Hi all i normally just chat in the BP section but thought i would chime in here
the saying never bring a knife to a gun fight is such BS anybody serious about self defense should at the very least respect the knife and the knife wielding attacker.

YES i would prefer to have a gun and have practiced with both guns and knives and hand to hand I can still draw a knife from a belt sheath and hit a target out to about 20 feet faster than i can with a gun and that is assuming
i have not already got it palmed or otherwise hidden.

if its under 10 feet unless you have some pretty good self defense skills
to gain time to draw a gun the knife person will in all likelyhood have an advantage especially if the fight gets down to a grapple which most do

knives are
silent
easily hidden
available anywhere
cheap
very reliable (unless you buy china garbage)
never need reloading (just the occasional hone)
easily improvised

like i said i would prefer a gun because of the multiple shot and range advantages and also because of lethality advantages of a gun for self defense.

but any idiot that purveys the (dont bring a knife to a gun fight) is displaying a total lack of knowledge and respect for the humble knife and that could get YOU killed.

 

[blarby]

If you want to introduce some realism into these drills have 3 or more people play the role of the attacker so the defender doesn't know which one is going to initiate the attack. This is still unrealistic in that the defender knows it is coming. Want to make it more realistic? Run it over and over where no attack occurs before an attack is initiated by one of the multiple possible attackers. You'll see real differences between static and dynamic scenarios and between trained and untrained defenders.

Hso for the win again....

 

[Cocked & Locked]

Time Killers

The defender (drawing his gun) has even less of a chance of survival or being filleted if he...

1) has to move clothing out of the way to reach his gun

2) is using a holster with a snap strap or other retention device

3) has a gun with a safety to disengage

4) has a gun with hammer, "beaver tail", or sight that can snag on clothing

 

[1911Tuner]

The exercise is designed and intended to make us aware that the gun isn't a guarantee. No more and no less.

I devised a game that I call "Beat the Drop" that I've used to demonstrate that when pointing a gun at somebody who is holding a gun in one hand, pointed at the ground, you can still get shot before you can get off a shot in time to stop him. It's been a real eye-opener for many...including a couple of high-speed/low-drag SWAT/SET professionals.

The seasoned blade man isn't going to announce that he has a knife and intends to take a run at you from 20 feet or 10 feet. He's going to work in as close as he can without tipping his hand...and he's going to cut you to ribbons in about 10 seconds while you're still trying to process the fact that you're being cut. He isn't interested in fighting a duel. His goal is to win. He operates on the old dictum that the best fight is the one that's over before the loser realizes that it's started.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I think this experiment gives a fairly accurate representation of what you could expect in a real knife attack (provided you saw it coming). Some may argue that Adam is not as quick on the draw as they are. This may be true, but then Jamie is no track star either. These are just two average men with average skills demonstraiting what could happen.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

I am a great big giant of a man, and there isn't a whole lot anyone can do to stop even me from covering 7 yards very fast. My hallway happens to be almost exactly that distance, and I can cover that tout suite.

Assuming you weren't kidding, waiting to move at the last minute in a game of seconds is going to result with a knife sticking out of one of your body parts. Plus, you advocate essentially doing three things at the same moment. Mindset is hugely important, awareness is hugely important, but training the kind of skills your advocating here is well beyond just simple mindset and awareness, especially in a high stress, rapid, unexpected attack.

Sorry but I was not kidding. Be aware of what is going on lets you set you body for a T stance which alows you to side step easily the cane should already be at the ready and after you have side stepped then struck him you can back away draw and dail 911.
I'm sorry but I didn't intend to present those steps as happening at the same time but over a period of seconds.

Plus being trapped in a narrow alley or hall calls for different actions.

 

[damoc]

Sorry but I was not kidding. Be aware of what is going on lets you set you body for a T stance which alows you to side step easily the cane should already be at the ready and after you have side stepped then struck him you can back away draw and dail 911.
I'm sorry but I didn't intend to present those steps as happening at the same time but over a period of seconds.

Plus being trapped in a narrow alley or hall calls for different actions.

ROFL

 

[AStone]

Subscribed.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I recently taught a seminar on stick fighting and demonstraited, using a foam rubber boffer and rubber knife, that a knife is no match for a 3' stick. It is really easy to side-step and whack the knife man from way out of his range. The thing that makes a walking cane so fast is the fact that you already have it in hand. If you know how to hold it in any one of the three carry methods we teach it can be put into action within a second. We tell the students: "Think of yourself as a bull fighter, not the bull."

 

[Cosmoline]

I'm very much afraid of knives. They're quiet and can inflict very nasty bleeding wounds. Forget someone charging at you with an "aieeeee!", I'm worried about the guy who comes up behind you to ask a question then nails you under the rib.

But that said, a distinction needs to be drawn in this drills between a sort of fencing slash with a magic marker and a viable killing stroke. Just because someone gets to you in time to make a mark on some part of your anatomy doesn't mean you'll be dead. Or that you'll die instantly.

But the reciprocal contact shot from a magnum to the knife wielder's torso? That one he ain't walking away from.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Face it, if someone wants you dead and you don't know it, they have a tremendous advantage. Knife, gun, club, it does not matter much if they have the drop on you.

 

[memphisjim]

A lot of this depends on the shooter standing still Circling would greatly increase the time you have

 

[10thMtn]

Face it, if someone wants you dead and you don't know it, they have a tremendous advantage. Knife, gun, club, it does not matter much if they have the drop on you.

True! I keep hearing this person say 3' stick, that person say a quick draw rig, and another say a cane. Almost always it seems people talk as if they're facing the attack and are prepared for it -- as if on alert. In a combat situation, you're always on alert. Walking out of the movies with your date, however, and I'll bet you're not. There's a lot of different martial arts/combatives with lots of good moves for a knife attack, but none of them matter if you're not always on alert and always aware of your surroundings. In the Army, we routinely placed unusual items around and about training areas, living quarters, rec facilities, etc. -- anywhere trainees would be during the day (some when they were alert, and some where they weren't). We'd stop them after they walked through the "set-up" and ask them to name the objects they passed. You'd be surprised how many failed the test until they were trained to observe surroundings constantly. What does this mean? Failure or success relies less in the technique you use to defend and counter-attack and more in your awareness of your surroundings. Think about it.

 

[Owen Sparks]

If someone really has it out for you they could take you out with a scoped rifle. Hopefully the chances of something like that happening are slim for most of us.

 

[blarby]

But the reciprocal contact shot from a magnum to the knife wielder's torso? That one he ain't walking away from.

If I for some reason wished you harm, and was able to get close enough to you to make any "anatomy marks"...you wouldn't be walking away from that either.

Any decent knife wielder could say the same thing.

The scary part is, it isn't hard to possess such proficiency with a blade.

The sad part is, you would have to train for a lifetime to be able to defend from such an attack with a firearm successfully.

 

[AStone]

I keep hearing this person say 3' stick, that person say a quick draw rig, and another say a cane. Almost always it seems people talk as if they're facing the attack and are prepared for it -- as if on alert. In a combat situation, you're always on alert.

50 million years ago, or 500 million years ago, the animals that survived were those that were always on alert. They were attuned to the tiniest sounds of a cracking twig on the ground, or a slight change in ambient smell, or something moving in their peripheral vision, whether a leaf blowing in a breeze or a large predator. By being alert to those, they survived - natural selection - and passed their genes onto their offspring.

Problem today is, like Lawrence Gonzales points out in his book Everyday Survival (subtitle: Why Smart People Do Stupid Things), we are in "a vacation state of mind". In modern society, we think that we are safe, that we have eliminated the risks associated with life.

We are not safe.

Until we understand that there are predators afoot, that they walk among us, and that they are paying attention to us whether we see them or not, even if not today or tomorrow or next week or next year, but soon enough, then we will do stupid things.

Pay attention to your surroundings every second, regardless of whether you are on a dark street in the ghetto at 3 am or in the mall at noon.

Otherwise, whether you carry an 18" stick, a 5" blade, or a .44, you may be deselected.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

As I remember it, in The Untouchables when Malone scoffs "Brings a knife to a gun fight" at the knife weilding assasin, Malone runs with a sawn-off shotgun into a Tommygun ambush. Which I guess could lead to another cliche, "Bring enough gun".