Mythbusters - falling bullets
- Thread starter SkyDaver
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Langenator
Member
You're forgetting the part about the bullet that hit the woman in the leg (they called it .30 caliber, from the looks of it-longish, with a round nose- I'd guess a .30-30, certainly an odd choice for celebratory fire) was fired from a mile away. Meaning it was fired at an angle other than vertical.
Fired at an angle, the bullet will retain it's spin and nose first attitude. This is much more aerodynamically effiicient than tumbling sideways, and it's going to be going MUCH faster when it comes back to earth.
One thing they could have mentioned, but didn't: back in the olden days, machineguns were sometimes used in the indirect fire role. Line up a group of belt-fed water-cooleds, elevate to the proper elevation, according to published ballistics tables, and let fly. The spread of the firing guns coupled with dispersion of the rounds by the wind would create a good size beaten zone.
I'm sure the armies of the world wouldn't have done this is they didn't have a good chance of inflicting some serious wounds at a minimum.
Fired at an angle, the bullet will retain it's spin and nose first attitude. This is much more aerodynamically effiicient than tumbling sideways, and it's going to be going MUCH faster when it comes back to earth.
One thing they could have mentioned, but didn't: back in the olden days, machineguns were sometimes used in the indirect fire role. Line up a group of belt-fed water-cooleds, elevate to the proper elevation, according to published ballistics tables, and let fly. The spread of the firing guns coupled with dispersion of the rounds by the wind would create a good size beaten zone.
I'm sure the armies of the world wouldn't have done this is they didn't have a good chance of inflicting some serious wounds at a minimum.
cidirkona
Member
Agreed, it may have been falling downwards near terminal velocity, but the sidways vector would be something more along the lines of 70% (1/root(2) for an upward 45deg-angle shot)) of the bullet velocity. 1000fps muzzle velocity -> 700fps sideways vector...
Guuestimate a mile's worth of decelleration down to 350fps or so and 'falling at terminal velocity' of 150fps, and a guessed angle of attack of 45 degrees down again (yeah, it would actually be a bit steeper, 45deg makes easy math) and you've still got a speed of 380.7fps, even if it's downward vector is only 150fps.
150fps sideways bullet pulled out of a 30-06 didnt' look too comfortable for the pig, and I'm guessing 380fps would be even less comfortable...
-Colin
Carl N. Brown
Member
off subject
Can someone date the first appearance of Main Battle Rifle as a phrase?
John T. Thompson used sub-machine gun or submachinegun at
least as early as 1919. So that is dated.
Albert Speer referred to the MP43 and StG44 assault rifles as
"sub-machine guns" implying sub-rifle caliber machinegun as
opposed to machine pistol MP38, MP40. Since StG
SturmGewehr literally translates as "asault rifle" that is dated.
back on subject: Mythbusters
At times I felt like they were recycling the dropped penny from
the Empire State Building and the Water Bullet Stop Mythbusts.
From a dead stop--straight up then straight down--a bullet will
only reach 100 mph or 147 fps.
At angles less than 90 degrees, the terminal velocity will be
higher: incoming at 45 degrees is definitely lethal. Most
fatalities from celebratory gunfire appear to be incoming from
60 to 45 degrees.
At least they did not do the Bullet test and Vodka tests at
the same time.
BTW, IF the string that pulled the trigger had been looped to
the operating handle (to automatically pull the trigger as the
bolt cycled) THAT would have been illegal.
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edit for typos
Can someone date the first appearance of Main Battle Rifle as a phrase?
John T. Thompson used sub-machine gun or submachinegun at
least as early as 1919. So that is dated.
Albert Speer referred to the MP43 and StG44 assault rifles as
"sub-machine guns" implying sub-rifle caliber machinegun as
opposed to machine pistol MP38, MP40. Since StG
SturmGewehr literally translates as "asault rifle" that is dated.
back on subject: Mythbusters
At times I felt like they were recycling the dropped penny from
the Empire State Building and the Water Bullet Stop Mythbusts.
From a dead stop--straight up then straight down--a bullet will
only reach 100 mph or 147 fps.
At angles less than 90 degrees, the terminal velocity will be
higher: incoming at 45 degrees is definitely lethal. Most
fatalities from celebratory gunfire appear to be incoming from
60 to 45 degrees.
At least they did not do the Bullet test and Vodka tests at
the same time.
BTW, IF the string that pulled the trigger had been looped to
the operating handle (to automatically pull the trigger as the
bolt cycled) THAT would have been illegal.
------------------
edit for typos
Last edited:
You know, most of our little gun definitions are completely arbitrary, and often completely made up by us.
The definitions of submachine guns, assault rifles, battle rifles, carbines, and rifles, are not set in stone. I think the working definition of "assault rifle" being used here is simply the old German standard, which doesnt necessarily mean its the only weapon to qualify.
Start a thread on the difference between Pistols and Revolvers some time, just to see how much even we can agree on terminology.
The definitions of submachine guns, assault rifles, battle rifles, carbines, and rifles, are not set in stone. I think the working definition of "assault rifle" being used here is simply the old German standard, which doesnt necessarily mean its the only weapon to qualify.
Start a thread on the difference between Pistols and Revolvers some time, just to see how much even we can agree on terminology.
Carl N. Brown
Member
What would be the terminal velocity of
an aerodynamically stable projectile?
Foster slug, Brenekke slug, or fletchette?
an aerodynamically stable projectile?
Foster slug, Brenekke slug, or fletchette?
answerguy
Member
I was yelling at my TV when they kept interchanging 'shot at an angle' with 'shot straight up'. They just aren't the same thing.
George Hill
Member
Hey, don't be so hard on the Mythbusters... They are from San Francisco and they are not screaming about having to pick up a gun. That and Kari is HOT.
OOO ahhhhhh, that Kari......, uh, wait a minute, I had something else to say.
When they started out by trying to make a comparison between air and ballistics gel, I almost stopped watching, but then when they got the results with the 30-06, it got me to thinking about the optimum velocity for maximum wound. Oh well, that would be for another thread.
When they started out by trying to make a comparison between air and ballistics gel, I almost stopped watching, but then when they got the results with the 30-06, it got me to thinking about the optimum velocity for maximum wound. Oh well, that would be for another thread.
SkyDaver
Member
Ballistics gel to air extrapolation
Well, for that bit, at least Adam started out with a hypothesis, tested it, and pronounced it invalid.
Well, for that bit, at least Adam started out with a hypothesis, tested it, and pronounced it invalid.
answerguy
Member
George Hill
I can never keep them straight, which one is Kari?
I can never keep them straight, which one is Kari?
VorpalSpork
Member
It hurts no matter what the angle.cidirkona
Member
WildBill, you bring up a very valid example...
Hail is most likely falling at terminal velocity and has roughly the same shape as a musket ball... Granted, the density is a bit different, but I've never heard of anyone being killed by the average 30-caliber hail...?
-Colin
Hail is most likely falling at terminal velocity and has roughly the same shape as a musket ball... Granted, the density is a bit different, but I've never heard of anyone being killed by the average 30-caliber hail...?
-Colin
k_semler
member
Literally, SturmGewehr translates as "Storm Rifle". Assault Rifle would translate as "Angriff Gewehr"; or "Greifen Sie Gewehr an", which would translate literally as "Attack you on rifle".
silicon wolverine
member
The germans regularly used terms liek this in non-litteral translations. Like blitzkreig as "lighting war" while the actual translation is "speed war" its simple paraphrasing. they used "sturm" as assault in the translation
SW
SW
answerguy
Member
Well, I guess I'm busted.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Shot video of the proceedings?
General Julian S. Hatcher, as Army Chief of Ordnance, was in an unique position to test out questions like this.
Hatcher's Notebook. covers his test of placing a machinegun aimed vertically on a dock or raft out over a lake. The gun was fired straight up the projos that returned and hit the wooden structure landed base first and somewhat dented the wood. He named the velocity, which as I recall was the same as any falling body, per Galileo. The lethality was questionable but he didn't recommend standing underneath such a "hail."
There's lots of good info in that book.
Hatcher's Notebook. covers his test of placing a machinegun aimed vertically on a dock or raft out over a lake. The gun was fired straight up the projos that returned and hit the wooden structure landed base first and somewhat dented the wood. He named the velocity, which as I recall was the same as any falling body, per Galileo. The lethality was questionable but he didn't recommend standing underneath such a "hail."
There's lots of good info in that book.
Jim Watson
Member
The subject comes up regularly when some wog shoots his gun in the air to celebrate some heathen occasion. The difference between a wog and General Hatcher is that the wog does not align his barrel with a plumb bob and a shot fired at some angle off the vertical is going to come down somewhere with residual muzzle velocity. It doesn't take much to turn an owie into a real bullet wound.
Carl N. Brown
Member
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