National Parks--are they Constitutional?

[Cosmoline]

The real legal question is whether, under the equal footing doctrine, western states should have been given title to the federal land holdings when they became states. Obviously, they weren't. The feds have held onto their turf and divided it up amongst their agencies. And the equal footing doctrine is currently the Rodney Dangerfield of legal theories. Personally, I would rather see the Empire of Japan in control of our land than the NPS.

 

[Malamute]

I guess I'm also in the minority here. I don't mind the parks, nor the National Forests being publicly owned. I'm REAL glad the lands in the west weren't disbursed for private ownership, as the country around here would then be as screwed up and overpopulated as the east and left coast. Whine all you want about the technical aspects of it, but I wouldn't trade the Rocky Mountain states for anything and everything east of the mountains. I live here because of all the National Forest and public land, and the lack of population and development. The freedom to use the land here is not even remotely duplicated in areas with all private land. Would we all like to have to be a member of a hunting or shooting club to be able to hunt or shoot? THAT situation is one where hunters and shooters can be controlled.

As far as the NPS being a scary evil entity by having M-16's and backing up the military if needed, I hope that comment was tongue in cheek, because I had to laugh when I read it. Most NPS employees are seasonal, and don't know which end of a gun is what. The LE qualified ones have some degree of training, but it is barely adequet training and personel to cover the park lands from those that I've seen and talked to. They have guns, so what. Maybe I'm not suspicious enough of them, but they seem to be minding their own business for the most part.

 

[Telperion]

It seems like the best way to stay within the bounds of the Constitution, and to do right by the spirit of the parks system, is to spin off NPS as a private entity (or entities), as was done with the DCM/CMP. With an endowment supplemented by user fees, they could be self-sufficient.

 

[TheEgg]

Whine all you want about the technical aspects of it,

Yeah, those silly ole technical aspects, like the constitution, and original intent -- we should just stop whining about silly stuff like that.

 

[SLCDave]

Malamute, I don't think anyone here would dispute the beauty and enjoyment that can be found in the National Parks. I love Yellowstone and the Grand Teton Nat'l Parks, particularly. I guess the larger question is why the Federal Government has to step in , unconstitutionally, and tell the States what they can and cannot do with their own land (Sound similar to any current events?). Why not allow the individual States set up their own guidelines as to how things should be run, and to profit from their own park systems? Shouldn't Wyoming benefit from my $35 gate fee to get into these 2 parks, and the money I pay to camp and enjoy the land in Wyoming? Couldn't Wyoming do just as good or a better job running things from a local level? Who knows what is best for your land in your state, the folks who have a real vested interest in it by living there, or someone several thousand miles away sitting in an office, who may never have crossed the Mississippi? Why should some suit that has never touched a gun decide that YOU can't carry a gun somewhere in YOUR State, when the same State has issued you a permit to do just that?

This is just one more instance of the Federal Government forgetting its place.

 

[Upriver]

Malamute

As far as the NPS being a scary evil entity by having M-16's and backing up the military if needed, I hope that comment was tongue in cheek, because I had to laugh when I read it.

It'd be tounge in cheek if it wasn't, unfortunately, true. There's a great bit of variety, but especially in the border parks, rangers are becoming less and less the friendly folks that help with a flat tire, and more the kind that:

Set up remote cameras to monitor potential "smuggling"

Use night vision to observe visitor activities in campgrounds and popular areas at night.

Conduct "operations" with other federal agencies.

True, and in my opinion, sad.

You're correct that a good number of the seasonal folks don't know which end of the gun is the business end...but the full-time folks have at the minimum a side-arm, shotgun, and AR-15.

As far as gun laws go... the parks are all different, although for the most part, ithey're a "no loaded firearms" area. This varies as some units allow hunting in season, but you've got to check on a case by case basis.

For what it's worth, NPS units also set their own rules about fishing and hunting, regardless of state regs.

 

[Malamute]

I guess I was transfering some of my comments towards National Forests, as some earlier comments were tending in that direction. I do understand the concern for constitional propriety, tho some of this was addressed by one of the other posters. I'm not up to speed on the particular constitutional issues. Having lived in western states for 25 years, I just don't see some of the things happening that some expressed concern for, tho it may be happening in other areas. The NPS has guns, that doesn't bother me. If I worked for them, I'd want guns too, particularly if dopers and smugglers were using the park lands or adjacent lands for criminal activities. They are a federal agency, that is part of their job description, and they are charged with protecting and preserving the lands under their administration. No, I don't think it's perfect, but I'm glad we have the big parks, and the National Forests. I for one am not too impressed with how most of the private land has been used and developed back east.

State forestes and parks may be fine. They seem to work OK for the most part as National Forests and parks in the area I'm in.

Just my opinion.

 

[Art Eatman]

At Big Bend National Park on the Rio Grande in west Texas, I can understand the Park Rangers using night vision equipment and being prepared for a firefight. For instance, smugglers aren't totally happified by losing some 300 kilos to "the fuzz", as once happened.

Burro trains of up to a ton of marijuana are swum across the river and led through the Park, for delivery on upcountry. This was a common method for some neighbors I once had.

For an NPS employee to be certified as a full-bore Smokey the Bear and tote a gun, he must first go through the FLETC.

Over the last 20 or so years, even Yellowstone has gotten at times to be rather wild and wooly as to the need for law enforcement against theft and violence in the campgrounds.

I've seen a relative few park rangers who were overbearing, but generally not. I don't have a lot of use for the administrators that BBNP has had during these last 30 years of my experience as a tourist and neighbor.

Art

 

[JPM70535]

Actually I have no real objection to a gun free national Parks System, Just as long as the Feds accept total responsibility for my personal safety while I make use of their (Ours actually) facility. I woulld require at minimum, one Ranger for Bear Patrol, and a 4 man squad to attend to the 2 legged carnivores that seem to inhabit the Parks.
Cant agree to that one? Guess it's back to being an outlaw.

JPM

 

[Upriver]

Art,

As someone dearly in love with the area surrounding BBNP, I too can understand the need for the Law enforcement staf to be sufficiently armed. I simply wish, that with what seems like an already overwhelming presence of Border Patrol in, and around that area the NPS LEO's could focus less on drug interdiction and more on visitor interaction.

To me, if the effort to quash smuggling (except as it impinges on visitor safety) results in a loss of privacy in the wilderness (who expects cameras and night-vision out there?) it's not a trade-off that makes sense to me.

Let the B.P. take on the smuggling problem, and put Rangers back on the trails, in the campgrounds, and on the river (when it's there) to give a leg up to your average visitor.

As a side note...only the full-time folks get FLETC - but there's still a slew of seasonal folks out there with lesser commissions that carry firearms, and are woefully un-prepared to use them.

Wish I was still down in the area regularly, and could discuss this over a beer at the Kiva.