Navy Yard and its implications.

[Mitlov]

I love how the New York Times calls it a "a law-enforcement-style shotgun"...as if there's anything special about a 12-gauge pump gun. They're just trying to play into the lame "this is a military-style weapon, not something civilians use" argument even though an 870 is exactly the sort of shotgun that civilians use all the time. And for the record, find me a police agency that uses an 870 Express. I doubt you will.

Also, they work VERY hard to make plain ol' buckshot sound unique and sinister:

The gunman then perched himself above an atrium where he fired down on people who had been eating breakfast, officials said, adding that he used shotgun shells that had roughly a dozen large ball-bearing-like shots in them, increasing their lethal nature.

“When he discharged, the pieces of lead would spread the farther they went,” the one official said. “It is similar to weapons used in bird shooting but on a more serious scale. These were not bullets but many small pieces of lead flying through the air.”

 

[ldlfh7]

Well here comes round two on gun control efforts....Can't wait.

 

[Old Fuff]

Also, they work VERY hard to make plain ol' buckshot sound unique and sinister:

Of course they do. But if they stir up some hunters who have been sitting on the fence their effort may backfire.

Up until now they have trying to pit “traditional hunters” against the “black rifle shooters.”

 

[HOWARD J]

Why have military bases become so""" gun & bullet free zones""
An outside cop had to shoot this guy

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Long Island Newsday reported 18 Sep 2013 that Aaron Alexis carved "cryptic phrases" into the "wooden stock" of his shotgun, citing "a federal law enforcement source".

The news media keep showing pictures of a tactical police version of the 870 with a M4 style adjustable butt and seperate pistol grip (the most "military" picture they could find apparently).

Any one know what model he actually purchased?

Any one have a link to the FBI Director briefing? Apparently surveillance video of the incident from multiple viewpoints show him roaming the hall, shooting people in their offices, but not shooting from an atrium down onto the cafeteria.

Everything we have been told in this incident, from him buying and taking an AR-15 to the Naval Yard to what guns were beside him when he died, has been "corrected" in further "reporting": where are these bogus stories coming from?

adding that he used shotgun shells that had roughly a dozen large ball-bearing-like shots in them, increasing their lethal nature

Buckshot has been used in shotguns and smoothbore muskets for centuries, both for hunting, fighting highway robbers, and in warfare.

 

[hso]

The fact that everything is wrong in the first couple of hours isn't a surprise, but it is the next day that facts (or disinformation) is tangible. It is our obligation to point out error and willful bias and use them against the Antis, but when the media themselves point out the incompetence (or willful distortions) of other elements of the media then we should put that to good use.


http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...=Fhigfv72SCo&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13797320194546

 

[jad0110]

Quote:
Also, they work VERY hard to make plain ol' buckshot sound unique and sinister:
Of course they do. But if they stir up some hunters who have been sitting on the fence their effort may backfire.

Up until now they have trying to pit “traditional hunters” against the “black rifle shooters.”

I for one hope the antis do just that (stir up the "traditional hunters"). Maybe it will wake some up and get them same page with us, you know, the ones that have all too willing to through black rifle owners under the bus as the sacrificial lamb.

Also, the base where I work had at least one lethal shooting in either the mid 70s or early 80s (or possibly both).

 

[steelerdude99]

This cartoon appeared in my local paper yesterday. Knowing how untrue the premise is, that part did not bother me. What bothers me greatly is that many in the public don’t know that a background check was performed on the Navy Yard shooter and he passed. The gun-grabbers just keep sounding the message over and over that only their “common sense” solution of universal background checks (UBC) will solve the mass shooter problem. AND WHEN that doesn’t work, everyone needs register the guns that they already had before UBC … and when that does not work …

chuck

 

[Pizzapinochle]

As someone who would fit most of your descriptions of an 'anti' i can guess the two big arguments you will encounter regarding an incident like this.


1. Armed security did not stop the shooter, in fact, the shooter killed the guards and took their gun to cause more harm. When the discussion of arming teachers comes up, you can bet you will here a reference to this.

2. Reports are that he attempted to buy an AR15 but Virginia law prevented it. You will hear "Thank goodness for that law or it would have been worse."

Now, please understand, i don't think these are good arguments. I think forming any sort of national policy off isolated incidents that account for 1% of firearm homicides is a bad idea. BUT, I am very good at understanding positions that i do not hold on both sides of an issue.

So, in terms of the arguments you can expect to arise from this incident, guessing those are the big ones.

 

[hso]

Reports are that he attempted to buy an AR15 but Virginia law prevented it.

That lie has been debunked as all of us know that anyone able to buy a shotgun can buy an AR in VA, but the NYT can't conduct the simple fact check on the law.

What bothers me greatly is that many in the public don’t know that a background check was performed on the Navy Yard shooter and he passed.

Are you at least making sure the readers of the cartoon know the truth? What's the name of the paper/syndicate/cartoonist?

 

[Pizzapinochle]

HSO, I actually hadn't read anything since last Friday or so, hopefully that bit of poor reporting won't be repeated, but it is obviously easily refuted.

 

[hso]

Even with comments on their FB page and some ridicule from other "media" sites they still had it up for days. Very telling when they headline a mistake like that and then don't correct when pointed out.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/17/miller-new-york-times-gets-it-wrong-about-navy-yar/

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

In 1993, Bill Clinton changed the policy of carrying firearms by military personnel on military bases from allowed to against military regulations. Disarming our soldiers and placing them in a gun free zone.

From 1776 to 1993, we had zero shootings on US military bases. From 1993 to 2013 we have had 16 shootings on our military bases.

Ummmm...noooooo, I don't think this is very accurate.

All the naval bases I was on between 1985 and 1993 did NOT allow carrying of weapons by anybody other than the personnel providing base security.

On the Air Force bases where an older brother of mine served or flew out of, starting as early as 1970, the only people who went about the base armed were those who were required to be armed by their job...such as base security or nuclear weapons security.

The same can be said for another of my older brothers, who served with the Marines.


In 1986, a shooter shot three people in the ET-A school I was attending in Great Lakes, Il, killing one and wounding the other two. I know. I was there when it happened. That was September 17th, 1986.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-09-17/news/8603090528_1_navy-school-navy-records-base

October 16, 1991 A 35-year-old civilian drives a pickup truck into a Fort Hood cafeteria and fatally shoots 23 people wounding 20 more before killing himself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-5541051.html


These are just the ones I remember. I'm quite sure there are others.

 

[9MMare]

I wonder if there really is a price to be paid for this crappy journalism? Who will be able to make a difference in a timely manner?
The internet forums?
Talk radio?
We will preach to the choir but the MSM will run with stories like the one linked to above in which they somewhat retracted earlier stories but then went on to devote much of the story to the AR and how deadly it is.
We can not deny the efficiency of the tool, I still contend that aside from total door to door confiscation we need to understand that living with guns in society will and always has been dangerous to a very few. What we need is the freedom to defend ourselves when the random nut job acts out.

As long as people are content to accept the sensationalist stuff that fits their agendas and beliefs, they'll be in business.

Just like it amazes me that the Enquirer (Inquirer?) and similar rags that are completely manufactured stay in business. It feeds something in people.

Just like the obtrusiveness of paparazzi...if people didnt buy, they'd starve.

Ignorance is a choice.

 

[9MMare]

As someone who would fit most of your descriptions of an 'anti' i can guess the two big arguments you will encounter regarding an incident like this.


1. Armed security did not stop the shooter, in fact, the shooter killed the guards and took their gun to cause more harm. When the discussion of arming teachers comes up, you can bet you will here a reference to this.

This was a point that I and others made in the discussions after Newtown. Regarding security on my part mostly.

 

[58limited]

October 16, 1991 A 35-year-old civilian drives a pickup truck into a Fort Hood cafeteria and fatally shoots 23 people wounding 20 more before killing himself.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-5541051.html

That is not correct, more media inaccuracy. The restaurant was off base not on base - it was the Luby's in Killeen, Tx. I lived a few miles away in Temple, Tx when this happened but I was attending Texas A&M at the time of the shooting. A guy downstairs from me at A&M lost his mother in that shooting. My father often went to the airport in Killeen to pick up VIP visitors and would often stop for lunch (he worked at Texas Instruments in Temple) - I was pretty nervous until I finally got him on the phone that day. That Luby's finally closed and, last I heard, is a now a Chinese buffet.

This massacre is what eventually lead to the Texas Concealed Handgun License law thanks in big part to Suzanna Hupp, who was present but had left her pistol in the car in compliance with 1991 Texas law. Both of her parents were killed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzanna_Hupp

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Long Island Newsday reported 18 Sep 2013 that Aaron Alexis carved "cryptic phrases" into the "wooden stock" of his shotgun, citing "a federal law enforcement source".

AlJezeera America shows a Remington with 18 or 20" barrel, six shot magazine tube same length, sawed-off conventional stock. Cryptic phrases scratched on the receiver and barrel. I am beginning to doubt the story he assembled the gun in the bathroom.

The gun is obviously not the tacticool police 870 flashed all over the screens at the start of all this.

The talking head does repeat the misinformation that he was barred from buying an AR by Virginia law so bought the shotgun instead; he was barred from buying a pistol, and did not try to buy the AR according to the interviews of the gun dealer.

 

[PBR Streetgang]

Here is some video of the gunman at the Navy Yard.....

sorry, trying to post FBI surveillance video ...........can't get it to post...

 

[Trent]

I watched the surveillance video. FBI says it was a wood stocked 870, barrel and stock cut down with a hacksaw (purchased same day), purple duct tape around the grip, cryptic stuff carved in the side.

Cryptic = "My ELF weapon", etc.

According to the FBI today the shooter recovered one Beretta 92 handgun (didn't say who/where from) and also used it in the shooting.

12 dead, 4 wounded; 75% fatality rate on those shot. (But .. That's a shotgun for you.. they're damn effective in close quarters.)

The FBI stated multiple sources were used to determine the shooter believed he was under the control of ultra low frequency electromagnetic radiation.

Which is going to send the tinfoil hat guys through the roof.

Edit; looking at the surveillance video he *had* to have assembled the shotgun after getting on site, even cut down, it was too long to fit in his backpack. The entry camera showed him just carrying a backpack, later, he had the shotgun, but no backpack.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

1. Armed security did not stop the shooter, in fact, the shooter killed the guards and took their gun to cause more harm. When the discussion of arming teachers comes up, you can bet you will [strike]here[/strike] hear a reference to this.

Yeah, like having the intruder the only one armed would be better in all circumstances. French Maquis, Fillipino guerillas, Viet Cong would slit the throats of sentries and take their guns, ammo, grenades, etc. best not have sentries at all.

Local experience with armed school resource officers:
http://www.timesnews.net/article/90...-board-of-education-eyes-sros-for-all-schools
Rick Wagner, "Sullivan County Board of Education eyes SROs for all schools", Kingsport Times-News, 7 Jan 2013.·

The Sullivan County Board of Education's aim is to have a school resource officer assigned to all 20 school campuses in the county, not just the four high schools that have had SROs since 1997.

http://www.timesnews.net/article.php?id=9025899
Rain Smith, "Police officers kill gunman at Sullivan Central", Kingsport Times-
News, 30 Aug 2010.·

We have had armed school resource officers since 1997.
Bill Clinton's COPS program supported SROs in 2000.
This is not something created by Wayne LaPierre.
Also, Hawkins County Sheriff Ronnie Lawson: "Our SROs are more than armed guards. They'll be directing traffic before and after school. We would be able to implement regular anti-drug programs in every school, regular safety programs and have better outreach into every community in the county."

For instance officers/deputies assigned to schools in previous generations taught drivers ed, etc., in addition to being available for security.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

On the gun used, CBS has an FBI photo here: http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10018382-9.html

going by the 24" ruler, the barrel appears a bit under under 18"

Compare with photos used in previous news reports, apparently the result of editors demanding Police 870 "assault weapon" photos.

 

[rem44m]

Viewers have stopped watching them. The news spots on CBS, ABC, NBC, and CNN have all lost significant viewers and market share. They're a shell of what they once were. People stop watching when they get lied to repeatedly.

Not according to this-

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/25/evening-news-ratings_n_3990626.html

I will say I don't hardly pay any attention to the news anymore, I'm sick of being lied to.

 

[hso]

hopefully that bit of poor reporting won't be repeated, but it is obviously easily refuted.

New poor reporting is what has taken place. Breathless reporting of the stocked 870 as something that a hunter wouldn't use. Breathless reporting of plain buckshot as somehow especially vicious as if it were flechette or dragon's breath. Breathless reporting that the shotgun was some special law enforcement version. All of it intended to to paint a simple, buy at WalMart, 12 gauge pump and buckshot as something extraordinary and insidious. Pathetically obvious bias to anyone that knows the least little thing about guns.

 

[Fred Fuller]

The shotgun is a newer version of the 870 Express #5077, a popular home defense shotgun. What's different is that this 'security' version has a fixed 6-round tubular magazine as opposed to the usual 4-round version with a 2-round magazine extension (still pictured at http://www.remington.com/en/product...-870/model-870-express-synthetic-7-round.aspx), as was sold earlier (first one of the new models I saw was in July of 2012, don't know when they came out). Its plastic stock (NOT wood) was sawn off behind the pistol grip, and about an inch of the barrel was cut off also. Since the barrel is listed as 18" in the link below, that would make it illegal under federal law.



(img from http://www.impactguns.com/remington...d-cylinder-black-synthetic-7rd-tube-5077.aspx)

 

[barnbwt]

...as somehow especially vicious as if it were flechette or dragon's breath

Why, that's exactly what they said about flechette and dragon's breath. But, how can they both be "superlatively lethal?" One can only conclude that anything the anti crowd denigrates as vociferously as the bubba-fudd gun featured here is --in there own words, by there own logic-- just as dangerous/no more dangerous than...an off the rack 870 Cheapo with buckshot. I say we agree with them, but on the condition they feature wooden stocked 870s in their slam-pieces going forward

Honestly, though, they trapped themselves with that knee-jerk AR15 business. Got all the usual suspects riled up about the tool not the crime, then it turns out the tool wasn't so bad after all, but by then everyone's in Inanimate Object Crusade Mode and can't stop themselves :banghead:. At least these guys got to stretch their Creative Writing legs a little (can you make a garden-variety shotgun sound like the ultimate evil with no supporting evidence or knowledge in your portrayl? )

TCB