Nazi Germany relaxed gun laws?

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PILMAN

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I've been debating with Neo Nazis and in regards to the common idea that dictators have always used gun control to control a population. It is rather common to see Hitler, Stalin, and Mao as a symbol against gun rights. I am not a Nazi (actually i'm Jewish) and someone sent me this article by the former National Alliance leader. Can someone confirm this? I am rather confused as I was watching the JPFO documentary about "The Gang" which had claimed that the original "sporting clause" and GCA 1968 come from Nazi laws word for word. Here is the article. Sorry if this is the wrong section or if this is not permitted. I would like to know the answer to this myself as this could be bad in my debates if I bring up Hitler and someone brings up Hitler relaxing gun laws.

Gun Control in Germany, 1928-1945

by William L. Pierce

A common belief among defenders of the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is that the National Socialist government of Germany under Adolf Hitler did not permit the private ownership of firearms. Totalitarian governments, they have been taught in their high school civics classes, do not trust their citizens and do not dare permit them to keep firearms. Thus, one often hears the statement, "You know, the first thing the Nazis did when they came to power was outlaw firearms," or, "The first thing Hitler did in Germany was round up all the guns."

One can understand why many American gun owners want to believe this. They see in the current effort of their own government to take away their right to keep and bear arms a limitation of an essential element of their freedom and a move toward tyranny, and they want to characterize the gun-grabbers in the most negative way they can. Adolf Hitler has been vilified continuously for the past 60 years or so by the mass media in America, and certainly no politician or officeholder wants to be compared with him. If the gun-confiscation effort can be portrayed convincingly as something of which Hitler would have approved, it will have been effectively tarred.

This identification of the inclination to deny citizens the right to keep and bear arms with National Socialism and Adolf Hitler has been strengthened recently by clever magazine advertisements which show Hitler with his arm outstretched in a Roman salute under a heading: "All in favor of gun control raise your right hand." A Jewish group, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO), quite noisy for its size, has been especially zealous in promoting the idea that the current gun-control effort in America has its roots in Germany during the Hitler period. This group has gone so far as to claim in several articles published in popular magazines read by firearms enthusiasts that the current restrictive legislation being proposed by the U.S. government is modeled on a gun-control statute enacted by Germany's National Socialist government: the German Weapons Law (Waffengesetz) of March 18, 1938.

Again, one can understand the motivation of the JPFO. Many non-Jewish firearms owners are well aware that the movement to restrict their rights is led and promoted primarily by Jews, and anti-Jewish feeling has been growing among them. They know that the controlled news media, which are almost unanimously in favor of abridging or abolishing the Second Amendment, are very much under the influence of Jews, and they know that the most vocal anti-gun legislators in the Congress also are Jews. It is natural for a group such as the JPFO to mount a damage- control effort and attempt to prevent anti-Jewish feeling from becoming even stronger among gun owners. Their strategy is to deflect the blame from their kinsmen in the media and the government and direct it onto their most hated enemies, the National Socialists -- or at least to create enough smoke to obscure the facts and keep the gun-owning public confused.

Unfortunately for those who would like to link Hitler and the National Socialists with gun control, the entire premise for such an effort is false. German firearms legislation under Hitler, far from banning private ownership, actually facilitated the keeping and bearing of arms by German citizens by eliminating or ameliorating restrictive laws which had been enacted by the government preceding his: a left-center government which had contained a number of Jews.

It is not just that the National Socialist firearms legislation was the opposite of what it has been claimed to have been by persons who want to tar modern gun-grabbers with the "Nazi" brush: the whole spirit of Hitler's government was starkly different from its portrayal by America's mass media. The facts, in brief, are these:
The National Socialist government of Germany, unlike the government in Washington today, did not fear its citizens. Adolf Hitler was the most popular leader Germany has ever had. Unlike American presidents, he did not have to wear body armor and have shields of bulletproof glass in front of him whenever he spoke in public. At public celebrations he rode standing in an open car as it moved slowly through cheering crowds. Communists made several attempts to assassinate him, and his government stamped down hard on communism, virtually wiping it out in Germany. Between upright, law-abiding German citizens and Adolf Hitler, however, there was a real love affair, with mutual trust and respect.


The spirit of National Socialism was one of manliness, and individual self-defense and self- reliance were central to the National Socialist view of the way a citizen should behave. The notion of banning firearms ownership was utterly alien to National Socialism. In the German universities, where National Socialism gained its earliest footholds and which later became its strongest bastions, dueling was an accepted practice. Although the liberal-Jewish governments in Germany after the First World War attempted to ban dueling, it persisted illegally until it was again legalized by the National Socialists. Fencing, target shooting, and other martial arts were immensely popular in Germany, and the National Socialists encouraged young Germans to become proficient in these activities, believing that they were important for the development of a man's character.


Gun registration and licensing (for long guns as well as for handguns) were legislated by an anti-National Socialist government in Germany in 1928, five years before the National Socialists gained power. Hitler became Chancellor on January 30, 1933. Five years later his government got around to rewriting the gun law enacted a decade earlier by his predecessors, substantially amel ior a ting it in the process (for example, long guns were exempted from the requirement for a purchase permit; the legal age for gun ownership was lowered from 20 to 18 years; the period of validity of a permit to carry weapons was extended from one to three years; and provisions restricting the amount of ammunition or the number of firearms an individual could own were dropped). Hitler's government may be criticized for leaving certain restrictions and licensing requirements in the law, but the National Socialists had no intention of preventing law-abiding Germans from keeping or bearing arms. Again, the firearms law enacted by Hitler's government enhanced the rights of Germans to keep and bear arms; no new restrictions were added, and many pre-existing restrictions were relaxed or eliminated.


At the end of the Second World War, American GIs in the occupying force were astounded to discover how many German civilians owned private firearms. Tens of thousands of pistols looted from German homes by GIs were brought back to the United States after the war. In 1945 General Eisenhower ordered all privately owned firearms in the American occupation zone of Germany confiscated, and Germans were required to hand in their shotguns and rifles as well as any handguns which had not already been stolen. In the Soviet occupation zone German civilians were summarily shot if they were found in possession of even a single cartridge.


Jews, it should be noted, were not Germans, even if they had been born in Germany. The National Socialists defined citizenship in ethnic terms, and under Hitler Jews were not accorded full rights of citizenship. National Socialist legislation progressively excluded Jews from key professions: teaching, the media, the practice of law, etc. The aim was not only to free German life from an oppressive and degenerative Jewish influence, but to persuade Jews to emigrate. The German Weapons Law of March 18, 1938, specifically excluded Jews from manufacturing or dealing in firearms or munitions, but it did not exclude them from owning or bearing personal firearms. The exclusion of Jews from the firearms business rankled them as much as any other exclusion, and in their typically ethnocentric fashion they have misrepresented the law involved as an anti-gun law in an effort to cast their enemies in a bad light.

It should be noted in passing that the restrictions placed on Jews by the National Socialists had the intended effect: between 1933 and 1939 two-thirds of the Jews residing in Germany emigrated, reducing the Jewish population of the country from 600,000 when Hitler became Chancellor in 1933 to 200,000 at the outbreak of the Second World War in 1939. Jews in the United States, looking at this period from their own narrowly focused viewpoint, have described these peacetime years of the National Socialist government as a time of darkness, terror, and regression, whereas for the German people it was a time of hope, joy, and spiritual and material renewal.

Much the same type of distortion is seen in the portrayal of the United States in the early 1950s: the so-called "McCarthy Era." Senator Joseph McCarthy (Republican, Wisconsin) used his position as chairman of the Senate's Government Operations Committee to expose the widespread communist infiltration of the U.S. government and other U.S. institutions which had taken place during the Second World War. A substantial majority of the communists who were dragged reluctantly out into the light of day by his efforts were Jews. As a result, the controlled media always have portrayed the period as one of terror and repression, when everyone was frightened of Senator McCarthy's "witch-hunt." Of course, it was nothing of the sort to non-Jewish Americans, who were not intimidated in the least. History viewed through a Jewish lens -- i.e., through media controlled by Jews -- always is distorted in a way corresponding to Jewish interests and concerns.

Both the German Weapons Law of March 18, 1938, enacted by the National Socialists, and the Law on Firearms and Ammunition of April 12, 1928, which was enacted by an anti-National Socialist government, are given below in full, first in facsimile and then in English translation. A little background information first, however, may help the reader to understand their significance.

After Germany's defeat in the First World War (a defeat in which Germany's Jews played no small part, demoralizing the home front with demonstrations and other subversive activity much as they did in America during the Vietnam war), the Kaiser abdicated, and liberals and leftists seized control of the government in 1918. Hitler, recovering in a military hospital from a British poison-gas attack which had blinded him temporarily, made the decision to go into politics and fight against the traitors he felt were responsible for Germany's distress.

The tendency of Germany's new rulers after the First World War was much the same as it is for the liberals in America today: they promoted cosmopolitanism, internationalism, and egalitarianism. By 1923 economic conditions in Germany had become catastrophic, and there was much public unrest. The communists had made major inroads into the labor movement and were a growing threat to the country.

Hitler had indeed gone into politics, and his National Socialists battled the communists in the streets of Germany's cities and gradually came to be seen by many patriotic Germans in the working class and the middle class as the only force which could save Germany from a communist takeover and total ruin. Hitler's National Socialists continued to win recruits and gain strength during the 1920s. The communists, with aid from the Soviet Union, also continued to grow. The political situation became increasingly unstable as the government lost popular support.

The government's response was to substantially tighten up restrictions on the rights of German citizens to keep and bear arms. The Law on Firearms and Ammunition of April 12, 1928, was the most substantial effort in this regard. This law was enacted by a left-center government hostile to the National Socialists (the government was headed by Chancellor Wilhelm Marx and consisted of a coalition of Socialists, including many Jews, and Catholic Centrists).

Five years later, in 1933, the National Socialists were in power, Hitler headed the government, and the communist threat was crushed decisively. The National Socialists began undoing the social and economic damage done by their predecessors. Germany was restored to full employment, degeneracy and corruption were rooted out, Jews and their collaborators were removed from one facet of national life after another, and the German people entered a new era of national freedom, health, and prosperity.

Finally, in 1938, the National Socialist government got around to enacting a new firearms law to replace the one enacted by their opponents ten years earlier. The highlights of the 1938 law, especially as it applied to ordinary citizens rather than manufacturers or dealers, follow:
Handguns may be purchased only on submission of a Weapons Acquisition Permit (Waffenerwerbschein), which must be used within one year from the date of issue. Muzzle- loading handguns are exempted from the permit requirement. [The 1928 law had required a permit for the purchase of long guns as well, but the National Socialists dropped this requirement.]


Holders of a permit to carry weapons (Waffenschein) or of a hunting license do not need a Weapons Acquisition Permit in order to acquire a handgun.


A hunting license authorizes its bearer to carry hunting weapons and handguns.


Firearms and ammunition, as well as swords and knives, may not be sold to minors under the age of 18 years. [The age limit had been 20 years in the 1928 law.]


Whoever carries a firearm outside of his dwelling, his place of employment, his place of business, or his fenced property must have on his person a Weapons Permit (Waffenschein). A permit is not required, however, for carrying a firearm for use at a police-approved shooting range.


A permit to acquire a handgun or to carry firearms may only be issued to persons whose trustworthiness is not in question and who can show a need for a permit. In particular, a permit may not be issued to:
1. persons under the age of 18 years;
2. legally incompetent or mentally retarded persons;
3. Gypsies or vagabonds;
4. persons under mandatory police supervision [i.e., on parole] or otherwise temporarily without civil rights;
5. persons convicted of treason or high treason or known to be engaged in activities hostile to the state;
6. persons who for assault, trespass, a breach of the peace, resistance to authority, a criminal offense or misdemeanor, or a hunting or fishing violation were legally sentenced to a term of imprisonment of more than two weeks, if three years have not passed since the term of imprisonment.


The manufacture, sale, carrying, possession, and import of the following are prohibited:
1. "trick" firearms, designed so as to conceal their function (e.g., cane guns and belt-buckle pistols);
2. any firearm equipped with a silencer and any rifle equipped with a spotlight;
3. cartridges with .22 caliber, hollow-point bullets.
That is the essence. Numerous other provisions of the law relate to firearms manufacturers, importers, and dealers; to acquisition and carrying of firearms by police, military, and other official personnel; to the maximum fees which can be charged for permits (3 Reichsmark); to tourists bringing firearms into Germany; and to the fines and other penalties to be levied for violations.

The requirements of "trustworthiness" and of proof of need when obtaining a permit are troubling, but it should be noted that they were simply carried over from the 1928 law: they were not formulated by the National Socialists. Under the National Socialists these requirements were interpreted liberally: a person who did not fall into one of the prohibited categories listed above was considered trustworthy, and a statement such as, "I often carry sums of money," was accepted as proof of need.

The prohibitions of spotlight-equipped rifles and hollow-point .22 caliber ammunition were based on considerations that the former were unsporting when used for hunting, and the latter were inhumane.

Now read the German firearms laws for yourself, either in the original German exactly as they were published by the German government in the Reichsgesetzblatt or in the complete English translations which are provided here. If you want to skip over most of the legal gobbledygook and go directly to the most pertinent part of the National Socialist Firearms Law -- the part pertaining to the purchase, ownership, and carrying of firearms by private citizens -- turn to page 35 (Part IV of the Law). Note, as already mentioned above, that two separate and distinct types of permits are referred to: a Weapons Acquisition Permit (Waffenerwerbschein), required only for purchasing a handgun; and a Weapons Permit (Waffenschein), required for carrying any firearm in public. Interestingly enough, as also mentioned above, a hunting license could take the place of both these permits.

When you have read the two laws reproduced here, you will understand that it was Hitler's enemies, not Hitler, who should be compared with the gun-control advocates in America today. Then as now it was the Jews, not the National Socialists, who wanted the people's right of self- defense restricted. You will understand that those who continue to make the claim that Hitler was a gun-grabber are either ignorant or dishonest. And you will understand that it was not until 1945, when the communist and democratic victors of the Second World War had installed occupation governments to rule over the conquered Germans that German citizens were finally and completely denied the right to armed self-defense.
 
I didn't bother to read the whole thing. This is just a bunch of Neo-Nazi bull. I guess the moon landing was staged, too. :rolleyes:
 
PILMAN,

Why would you want to waste all that time and energy debating these miscreants? The Holocaust is well documented. Nazi gun-control is well documented. These people are well documented loonies. Did you ever see these idiots on the History Channel? They aren't exactly the sharpest knives in the drawer. To call them morons would be an insult to morons.

Debate the antis in this country, and abroad. We could use the help.
 
As son of two people who grew up under Hitler's regime, one of whom came within a hair's breadth of going to Auschwitz, and the grandson of a man who kept a gun hidden in defiance of Nazi gun laws, I can say with 100% confidence that this guy is completely FULL OF **** about everything he writes. I have heard firsthand accounts from people who were there.

It's sad that people are so ignorant that they wouldn't know that right up front. "Never again" doesn't work too well when people don't know what they're trying to prevent.
 
The requirements of "trustworthiness" and of proof of need when obtaining a permit are troubling, but it should be noted that they were simply carried over from the 1928 law: they were not formulated by the National Socialists. Under the National Socialists these requirements were interpreted liberally: a person who did not fall into one of the prohibited categories listed above was considered trustworthy, and a statement such as, "I often carry sums of money," was accepted as proof of need.


They kept that because Jews were not trustworthy in the nazis eyes. Use your head and don't believe anything written on paper. If guns were so easy to get, why did the brave heroes of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising have to smuggle them in.
 
Quick comment... The article is not "wrong"... but it is misleading. The Nazi's did not disarm its "citizens", they disarmed everyone who was not a "citizen" or were considered politically unreliable. It is a fact that in the period leading up to Krystalnacht (sp?) in 1938, the Jews were systematically disarmed pursuant to Nazi policy.

Stephen Halbrook (oftentimes chief counsel for the NRA, prolific writer of pro RKBA article) has a recent article out on exactly this issue.. it helps that he is fluent in German.
 
Pilman said:
It is not just that the National Socialist firearms legislation was the opposite of what it has been claimed to have been by persons who want to tar modern gun-grabbers with the "Nazi" brush: the whole spirit of Hitler's government was starkly different from its portrayal by America's mass media. The facts, in brief, are these:
The National Socialist government of Germany, unlike the government in Washington today, did not fear its citizens. Adolf Hitler was the most popular leader Germany has ever had. Unlike American presidents, he did not have to wear body armor and have shields of bulletproof glass in front of him whenever he spoke in public. At public celebrations he rode standing in an open car as it moved slowly through cheering crowds. Communists made several attempts to assassinate him, and his government stamped down hard on communism, virtually wiping it out in Germany. Between upright, law-abiding German citizens and Adolf Hitler, however, there was a real love affair, with mutual trust and respect.

Sure, the Nazis "trusted" their citizens -- the ones with blue eyes and blonde hair. The ones who would raise their right arms, palm out and yell "Hail Hitler," or "Hail Victory." As long as you belonged to the Nazi Party you could hold any civil service office and buy a Walther PPK.
How many Jews do you think were allowed firearms? Nazi laws, IIRC, forced Jews to wear yellow stars of David -- and turn in their guns.

Authors Mathew Hughes and Chris Mann paint a stifling, horrid picture of Nazi Germany in their book, INSIDE HITLER'S GERMANY; Life Under the Third Reich*. Germans usually led very very regimented lives -- even being told by their government when, and where, they would be "allowed" to take their vacations. The Hitler Jungen removed children from their parents' care in order to indoctrinate them from youth into "Aryan" culture.
I have generally believed the canard that Nazis did restrict gunrights atleast to some degree. A famous 1938 law developed the infamous "sporting use" that was -- believe it or not -- incorporated almost directly into American law precisely 30 years later.
I would generally by highly suspicious of anything a "neo nazi" told me. A great many of them seem to have no understanding of who Hitler was or what the Third Reich was really about.

The regimentation of Germans under Nazi law was fairly well understood by most Americans at the time ... atleast the ones who didn't live in caves. A rather satyrical (!) song poked fun at Nazi-ism;

"When the fuehrer says 'we ist the Master Race,'
We Heil (raspbery) Heil (raspberry) right in the Fuhrer's face.
Not to love the fuehrer is a great disgrace.
We Heil (raspbery) Heil (raspberry) right in the Fuehrer's face.
When Herr Goebbels says 'we own the world and space.'
We Heil (raspbery) Heil (raspberry) right in Herr Goebbel's face.
When Herr Goering says 'they'll never bomb this place.'
We Heil (raspbery) Heil (raspberry) right in Herr Goering's face.
Are we not the super men? Aryan pure supermen?
'Ja we ist the supermen! Super-duper supermen!' (in effeminate voice)
Is this Naziland so good? Would you leave it if you could?
'Ja this Naziland ist good! We would leave it if we could!'
We bring the world to order! Heil Hitler's world to order!
Everyone of foreign race will love der Fuehrer's face
When we bring to the world dis order.' ......"

and so on. While the song ("The Fuhrer's face") is a funny song it pointed obliquely at only a few of the injustices imposed on the Germans.

Aside from satiracal songs and questions regarding gun control IMHO the Nazis should be primarily remembered for the Holocaust and their grotesque attempts to wipe an entire race off the face of the earth. That's beyond any description I can give... so I'll just leave it at that.


* Copyright 2000 by Brown Partworks Ltd., London, England
 
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Jews, it should be noted, were not Germans

I wonder what qualifications Americas socialist will be using for citizenship, most times it ends up being party membership. I seem to note a tendency for our own socialist toward banning gun ownership and I probable will not qualify for a permit.
 
That great song is "In Der Fuehrers' Face" by Spike Jones. I have that one on computer. He also had many other funny songs, "Cocktails For Two" being one of the all time best.
 
I see a whole lot of things claimed in thgat so caled article, yet I do not see even one citation of a reference work. Anyone can write anything, but when the author does not provide credible reference materials, I tend not to put too much faith into the words alone.
 
Alot of what they're saying is true. But what the JPFO is saying is true as well.

How can they both be correct?

The German people were trusted with firearms by the Nazis during this period in history while people of Jewish heritage were not. It's pretty simple, people will always try to arm their own people while trying to disarm the enemy.

German Weapons Laws In The 1920's, 30's and 40's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Weapons_Law

History of firearms restrictions in Germany 1919-1938
In 1919 and 1920, to stabilize the country and in part to comply with the Treaty of Versailles, the German Weimar government passed very strict gun ownership restrictions. Article 169 of the Treaty of Versailles stated, "Within two months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, German arms, munitions, and war material, including anti-aircraft material, existing in Germany in excess of the quantities allowed, must be surrendered to the Governments of the Principal Allied and Associated Powers to be destroyed or rendered useless."[1]

In 1919, the German government passed the Regulations on Weapons Ownership, which declared that "all firearms, as well as all kinds of firearms ammunition, are to be surrendered immediately."[2] Under the regulations, anyone found in possession of a firearm or ammunition was subject to five years' imprisonment and a fine of 100,000 marks.

On August 7, 1920, the German government enacted a second gun-regulation law called the Law on the Disarmament of the People. It put into effect the provisions of the Versailles Treaty in regard to the limit on military-type weapons.

In 1928, the German government enacted the Law on Firearms and Ammunition. This law relaxed gun restrictions and put into effect a strict firearm licensing scheme. Under this scheme, Germans could possess firearms, but they were required to have separate permits to do the following: own or sell firearms, carry firearms (including handguns), manufacture firearms, and professionally deal in firearms and ammunition. This law explicitly revoked the 1919 Regulations on Weapons Ownership, which had banned all firearms possession.

Stephen Halbrook writes about the German gun restriction laws in the 1919-1928 period, "Within a decade, Germany had gone from a brutal firearms seizure policy which, in times of unrest, entailed selective yet immediate execution for mere possession of a firearm, to a modern, comprehensive gun control law." [3]


The 1938 German Weapons Law
The 1938 German Weapons Law superseded the 1928 law. As under the 1928 law, citizens were required to have a permit to carry a firearm and a separate permit to acquire a firearm. Furthermore, the law restricted ownership of firearms to "...persons whose trustworthiness is not in question and who can show a need for a (gun) permit." Under the new law:

Gun restricton laws only applied to handguns, not to long guns or ammunition. Writes Prof. Bernard Harcourt of the University of Chicago, "The 1938 revisions completely deregulated the acquisition and transfer of rifles and shotguns, as well as ammunition."[4]
The groups of people who were exempt from the acquisition permit requirement expanded. Holders of annual hunting permits, government workers, and Nazi party members were no longer subject to gun ownership restrictions. Prior to the 1938 law, only officials of the central government, the states, and employees of the German Reichsbahn Railways were exempted.[5]
The age at which persons could own guns was lowered from 20 to 18.[6]
The firearms carry permit was valid for three years instead of one year.[7]
Jews were forbidden from the manufacturing of firearms and ammunition.[8]
Under both the 1928 and 1938 laws, gun manifacturers and dealers were required to maintain records with information about who purchased guns and the guns' serial numbers.
These records were to be delivered to a police authority for inspection at the end of each year.

According to this the Nazis actually relaxed the laws towards their own people while making sure that people that they didn't want to have guns were prohibited from having them (like the Jews in Germany).

So both sets of people are telling the truth, from their perspective.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

John Lotts Site On The Subject.
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/2007/02/steve-halbrook-has-very-interesting-law.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Firearms Laws In Nazi Germany.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=557183


Following Germany's defeat in World War I, the Weimar Republic passed very strict gun control laws in an attempt both to stabilize the country and to comply with the Versailles Treaty of 1919 - laws that in fact required the surrender of all guns to the government. These laws remained in effect until 1928, when the German parliament relaxed gun restrictions and put into effect a strict firearm-licensing scheme. These strict licensing regulations foreshadowed Hitler's rise to power.

If you read the 1938 Nazi gun laws closely and compare them to earlier 1928 Weimar gun legislation - as a straightforward exercise of statutory interpretation - several conclusions become clear. First, with regard to possession and carrying of firearms, the Nazi regime relaxed the gun laws that were in place in Germany at the time the Nazis seized power. Second, the Nazi gun laws of 1938 specifically banned Jewish persons from obtaining a license to manufacture firearms or ammunition. Third, approximately eight months after enacting the 1938 Nazi gun laws, Hitler imposed regulations prohibiting Jewish persons from possessing any dangerous weapons, including firearms.

The Treaty of Versailles was actually the law to blame for most of the firearms restriction, the Nazis weren't in power until much later. So it all depends on how you look at it and from what perspective.

If you were a German, then you actually had more firearms freedom.

If you were Jewish, then you had less firearms freedom.
 
Pilman, why are you debating when you don't have the facts and need to ask strangers on the Internet for them?

My own experiences with neo-Nazis is that they want to debate, especially with uninformed people, because it helps them spread their despicable ideology. Other people watch you falter and are more easily persuaded that it's because these pustules have a point.

You have no chance of accomplishing anything positive with facts or reasoning with such people because those are not the bases of Nazi beliefs. It's not just that you're wasting your time. You're also helping to fuel destruction.
 
His gun laws assessment of Nazi Germany is probably correct. You could own guns there, provided you swore loyalty to the party. If you do research on Nazi Germany, you will find that if you were a Nazi, you lived quite an ordinary and decent life (well, until around 1944). Read the law on the surface, it's not much different than upstate NY gun laws. Read under the surface and you see what it is, "guns for me, but not for any undesirables (ie, you)."
 
It is true that most of the Gun laws were enacted before the Nazis came to power, during the short Wemier republic after WW1 in response to the civil unrest in the country. The Nazi then used these laws to further restrict firearm ownership of people who where not considered loyal to the NAZI cause.
 
Jews, it should be noted, were not Germans, even if they had been born in Germany. The National Socialists defined citizenship in ethnic terms, and under Hitler Jews were not accorded full rights of citizenship.

Theres the difference.
 
I've been giving the National Alliance rhetorical swirlies for years.

They're the moral and intellectual equivalent of NAMBLA.

Everything on every subject ever written by Pierce was utter drivel. Remember that prior to 9/11, he PRAISED the Taliban for their mindless hatred of outsiders.

The truth is that the National Alliance has (as Nazis always do) collapsed into juvenile infighting. The organization, AND it's wouldbe successor, the National Vanguard, are walking corpses, shedding membership like Lindsay Lohan sheds braincells at a bar.

All of these organizations are nothing more than a pathetic collection of layabouts, felons, mental defectives and child molestors. Treat them with the contempt they so richly deserve.
 
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Jews, it should be noted, were not Germans, even if they had been born in Germany. The National Socialists defined citizenship in ethnic terms, and under Hitler Jews were not accorded full rights of citizenship.
Theres the difference.
By a strange coincidence I had this very same conversation with a retired BATF agent in usenet many years ago.

He PRAISED the Nazi gun control laws because according to him, "Any German citizen could own a gun." Being the cruel and vicious man that I am, I simply asked him, "Were Jews German citizens?"

He didn't answer right away... nor indeed for weeks and possibly months afterward... although I did ask him SEVERAL times a day... EVERY day.

He eventually replied, "No."

I then asked him, "Why do you support legislation which disarmed the Jews but not the Nazis who wanted to murder them all?"

He never did answer THAT question...
 
I detect just a wee bit of anti-semitism in that missive. :rolleyes:

A Jewish group, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO), quite noisy for its size, has been especially zealous ...
Many non-Jewish firearms owners are well aware that the movement to restrict their rights is led and promoted primarily by Jews, and anti-Jewish feeling has been growing among them. They know that the controlled news media, which are almost unanimously in favor of abridging or abolishing the Second Amendment, are very much under the influence of Jews, and they know that the most vocal anti-gun legislators in the Congress also are Jews.
The exclusion of Jews from the firearms business rankled them as much as any other exclusion, and in their typically ethnocentric fashion they have misrepresented the law involved as an anti-gun law in an effort to cast their enemies in a bad light.
After Germany's defeat in the First World War (a defeat in which Germany's Jews played no small part, demoralizing the home front with demonstrations and other subversive activity much as they did in America during the Vietnam war) ...
... Jews and their collaborators were removed from one facet of national life after another, and the German people entered a new era of national freedom, health, and prosperity.

There is no pony in this room. There is nothing but a room full of horse manure.
 
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Not only the Jews were not allowed guns.

My grandfather on my mother's side, who kept a gun secretly, had no Jewish ancestry.

Essentially, if you were an active, trusted Nazi, i.e. someone who would turn in his neighbor to the Nazi authorities for something as trivial as saying "Hello" instead of "Heil Hitler", you could have a gun. You'd use it to do Hitler's bidding, anyway.

Nazism was racist, but racism, horrible as it was, was not the ONLY problem with Nazism. Not by a long shot.

Sometimes people make it sound like life was great for everyone but the Jews. That's not true, either. It's not productive to reduce something as insidious as the Hitler regime to a single issue, and think that, if you can combat racism, you've won against authoritarian brutality. Far from it.
 
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