Need Advice for gun selection for my daughter with disabilities.

[iscareliberalsandlikeit]

I am a firm believer in teaching one's children to shoot and defend themselves. I've taught each one of my kids to shoot beginning at age five. They respect safety, are shockingly accurate, and more recoil tolerant that some adults I meet. (I'm a very proud Dad) Shooting has always been a family affair for us and typically we would pack a vehicle full of food, ammo, and the five us out to the range/public land for a full day of fun. The problem is my daughter was born without a bone in her left arm limiting movement. When she was younger she had more range of motion but now that shes 11, it's become so difficult that she cannot support a rifle with non-dominate hand. She's become frustrated with trying and so I come here to the forum to solicit advice. I'm looking for suggestions of a rifle or pistol carbine that she's able to use or possibly a referral to a gunsmith that specializes in work like this. Maybe there's a change in shooting position that I'm not familiar with would work? She's right handed and right-eye'd dominate. She cannot turn her palm facing upward counter-clockwise. She also cannot use a vertical style fore-grip because the angle is just a little to extreme for her limited range of motion. She's old enough that I believe she's graduated from the single shot micro bolt style .22lr that she could shoot before, to something more significant that perhaps she could keep all the way until she leaves my care. (possibly for self-defense) We've tried some handguns from time to time but being that her hands are still very small and she can't legally own one till 21 I'm dismissing that option for the time being. Handguns require more discipline, and I believe rifles and carbines with irons should be mastered numero uno. I've enclosed a few pictures showing the range of movement of her arms...excuse the costume...Halloween was yesterday...Thanks in advance!

 

[pauli]

I want to clarify - how much of her limitation is range of motion, and how much is strength? If geometry weren't an issue, could she support the weight of a rifle normally?

It appears that she fan face her palm down - would a horizontal grip on the left side of a rifle (ala power tool or bike handle bar) be viable? Vertical foregrip mounted on the left side, for instance.

 

[danez71]

I don't have much if any input but I'm interested and want to encourage a small light 22 pistol (maybe an SR22) to develop that skill as she ages to 21.

And also to say, from 1 father of a daughter to another, "Good job dad" and "Way to go daughter"

 

[KansasSasquatch]

There are AKs with "vertical" foregrip that are angled forward. If you can track one down locally you could see if they're angled enough for her.

Or maybe have a custom foregrip made that could be mounted on an AR via quadrail, M-LOK, or Key-Mod.

Other than that, maybe a bolt action rifle with a bi-pod and fired from the prone position. That's pretty easy to do without using your non-dominant hand if you only use that hand to keep the stock shouldered properly.

 

[.308 Norma]

I have no advice for you Sir, but I applaud the way you're raising your children, as well as your attitude about family. You should be a "very proud Dad."

 

[Sunray]

"...the single shot micro bolt style..." Same style of rifle in a .223, shot off a bench. Mind you, sometimes it's best to be there to help if necessary, but let her figure it out. Kids are usually smarter than they let on.
"...dismissing that option for the time being..." Don't if she wants to try it.
"...Handguns require more discipline..." More about the physicality. Handguns require upper body tone to shoot well. If she can't hold a rifle, she likely won't be able to hold a handgun either. However, that doesn't mean you should stop her trying. Builds confidence.

 

[cologuy]

Her issue seems to be more motion vs. strength if I read correctly - you've tried a vertical foregrip, you say, but how about an adjustable one? Mounted horizontally, maybe? This is just a picture I found online when I did a search, but there seems to be a fair selection you could look at. I also don't know how sturdy they are or how well they lock into position once you find a good angle, but a little glue or a screw would take care of that.

 

[Mauser lover]

Can she wrap her arm around a magwell? Put an AR magwell with a short LOP stock into the inside of the elbow?

I don't know if it will work, but it's a thought...

Could be a lightweight or .22 AR.

 

[LoonWulf]

again if it is as others have asked, a range of motion thing only, than perhaps an vertical foregrip mounted to the lower left side of a ultralite slim quadrail, on a right side charging ar. She could pull the rifle into her shoulder with her left hand while swaping mags and racking the bolt.

Start with an ultralite build, and Set up the lower the way she likes. Then you can add uppers as she grows and as her interests expand.

I also like the idea of a pistol or revolver that fits her hands. A Traditional two handed grip usually necessitates more rotation in the off hand, but just sticking my hands together i found what i think would be a comfortable grip that would allow some extra support with the off hand.

I didnt think about it till just now, but i shoot my rifle draped over my left wrist if im holding a flash light. This wouldnt work well for shooting fast with a gun that has significant recoil, but a med weight ar in .223 or a PCC wouldnt probably be fine used like that.

 

[iscareliberalsandlikeit]

View attachment 767037 Her issue seems to be more motion vs. strength if I read correctly - you've tried a vertical foregrip, you say, but how about an adjustable one? Mounted horizontally, maybe? This is just a picture I found online when I did a search, but there seems to be a fair selection you could look at. I also don't know how sturdy they are or how well they lock into position once you find a good angle, but a little glue or a screw would take care of that.

I haven't really explored the idea of Quad-rail on an AR or similar but trying something with a fore-grip mounted horizontally is a great idea. She's plenty strong enough, and there's plenty of will to match it. She'd be thrilled by the idea of an long gun that could fit her. I can get her involved with the build as well.

 

[iscareliberalsandlikeit]

"...the single shot micro bolt style..." Same style of rifle in a .223, shot off a bench. Mind you, sometimes it's best to be there to help if necessary, but let her figure it out. Kids are usually smarter than they let on.
"...dismissing that option for the time being..." Don't if she wants to try it.
"...Handguns require more discipline..." More about the physicality. Handguns require upper body tone to shoot well. If she can't hold a rifle, she likely won't be able to hold a handgun either. However, that doesn't mean you should stop her trying. Builds confidence.

I've really never stopped her from trying, she loves her mom's Walter P22. She also has shot her PK380 and it fits her hands A1. She's just interested in a long gun and more distance shooting, and not feeling left out on a turn on the rifle range.

 

[Bbear]

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/654610/caldwell-deadshot-fieldpod-aluminum

Something like this item might be the ticket. All the while get her to keep building up her strength in that arm. As she gets older she can move to a portable bi-pod or mono-pod. As for handguns, keep her at it. They make a great time-taker at the range while waiting for the barrel of her rifle(s) to cool off.
Another long gun she might try is a 30 carbine with peep sights. Ammo isn't the most inexpensive out there but they are rather short and light weight and she may be able to handle it. It can also be used on a whitetail out to about 100 yards (I took my first one with one of those way back in the olden-days)

 

[herrwalther]

For handguns she might like the Taurus 3032 models. They are in .32 and have a tip up barrel. They are easier to manipulate than a standard slide.

She could also try a Walther CCP. They are advertised as having an easy to rack slide but have not tried them personally.

 

[Jim NE]

Not sure I understand all of the challenges she's facing, but would a 9mm Hi Point carbine in this configuration work (pistol grip back and front)?

She also cannot use a vertical style fore-grip because the angle is just a little to extreme for her limited range of motion

The thing is the Hi Point is very short, so I thought that might compensate.Maybe you could modify the front vert. grip to have an extension (towards the back grip) that she could grasp.



If 9mm is too much recoil/noise, keep in mind Hi Point makes one in .380 as well, though I don't know if that one is available with a front folding pistol grip. Best wishes. She's a lovely young lady.

 

[danez71]

I am a firm believer in teaching one's children to shoot and defend themselves. I've taught each one of my kids to shoot beginning at age five. They respect safety, are shockingly accurate, and more recoil tolerant that some adults I meet. (I'm a very proud Dad) Shooting has always been a family affair for us and typically we would pack a vehicle full of food, ammo, and the five us out to the range/public land for a full day of fun. The problem is my daughter was born without a bone in her left arm limiting movement. When she was younger she had more range of motion but now that shes 11, it's become so difficult that she cannot support a rifle with non-dominate hand. She's become frustrated with trying and so I come here to the forum to solicit advice. I'm looking for suggestions of a rifle or pistol carbine that she's able to use or possibly a referral to a gunsmith that specializes in work like this. Maybe there's a change in shooting position that I'm not familiar with would work? She's right handed and right-eye'd dominate. She cannot turn her palm facing upward counter-clockwise. She also cannot use a vertical style fore-grip because the angle is just a little to extreme for her limited range of motion. She's old enough that I believe she's graduated from the single shot micro bolt style .22lr that she could shoot before, to something more significant that perhaps she could keep all the way until she leaves my care. (possibly for self-defense) We've tried some handguns from time to time but being that her hands are still very small and she can't legally own one till 21 I'm dismissing that option for the time being. Handguns require more discipline, and I believe rifles and carbines with irons should be mastered numero uno. I've enclosed a few pictures showing the range of movement of her arms...excuse the costume...Halloween was yesterday...Thanks in advance!

Help me understand correctly.

Looking at the 2 pics, her thumb is at the 11 o'clock position and her pinky is at the 5 o'clock (looking toward her, from her perspective her thumb would be at 1 o'clock and pinky at 7) and she can't rotate to the thumb at 3 o'clock and pinky at 9 (her perspective thumb at 9 and pinky at 3) in order to cup underneath the forend.

Is that correct?

 

[hdwhit]

If I'm not asking something too personal, which bone is missing?

And is it just totally absent, or are parts of what would have been the bone fused to the bone that is there?

Since you can't respond to these questions before I post them, permit me to continue on the basis of assumption and suggest that Bbear may be on to something with the idea of using a bipod to hold the muzzle end of the rifle up. Your daughter could then use the junction between her index finger and thumb to steady the barrel without having to worry about using her arm to support the weight of the front part of the rifle. A rifle with a pistol grip would allow her to use her right hand to exercise the maximum amount of control over the rifle.

Also, have you considered a mechanical brace that would allow her to bring her left hand into a useful (even if not optimal) orientation?

 

[JohnBiltz]

I'm assuming this is standing position. Since there are shooting positions where you could simply rest the rifle on the off arm or use a bipod. Shooting sticks would work but the side mounted vertical grip sounds like a better solution. That was a pretty good idea. Failing that, what about a short strap forming a loop to grip or a grip on a free rotating pivot. Also, you don't see it much anymore but the old technique of using a sling for support should help as well.

If I was you I'd contact Project Appleseed. They run an awful lot of shooters through training and I would have to think they would have some experience in something like this.

 

[BigBore44]

Look up “pivoting AR foregrip”. Here’s just one of many I found.

http://www.zahal.org/products/horizontal-folding-grip?path_parent=153447

It pivots left and right. They also make them that pivot and have built in, albeit short, bipods.

 

[Thunderchicken]

i don't entirely understand the restriction of motion, but as far as bearing the weight of the front of a rifle, would shooting left handed be possible? A sling might be able to bear much of the weight on the near end (maybe over the shoulder somehow?) so long as she was able to operate the trigger with her left hand. You can certainly learn to use your non-dominant eye, though it is not the optimal arrangement. I suppose you've already considered that. Good luck working it out. You both sound determined, and as others have said, bravo for that.

 

[Kingcreek]

Cute kid. Standing or sitting or kneeling or prone?
I'm thinking bipod solves the most challenges then all she would have to do is steady it with her left arm and hand. Any long gun would work.
I used to shoot with a guy that had is left forearm severed just distal to the elbow in an industrial accident. It was reattached but very limited. He still hunted but he used shooting sticks or bipod. He could shoot a Ithaca featherweight shotgun on game but he supported it with his left forearm under the front and his palm down and didn't grip the forestock.

 

[TRX]

> She also cannot use a vertical style fore-grip because the angle is just a little to extreme for her limited range of motion.

There are foregrips that adjust sideways, though I don't remember who makes them offhand. And some of the "free rifle" guys use a foregrip that looks like a tennis ball, mounted quite far back. They look awkward and uncomfortable to me, but they've been doing it that way since the 1800s.

Some of my old gunsmithing books have "one hand" rifles and shotguns pictured, but they look like they'd be a real handful even for a full-gown and otherwise healthy man.

One of the bullpups like a P90, AUG, or Tavor might be easiest for her to handle as she gets older; one arm holds almost all the weight, the other mostly just steadies the firearm. The P90 ejects down and the Tavor and AUG can be configured for left-hand ejection if necessary.

[edit] Sticking my arm out to follow the pictures, she has about 45 degrees less outboard pronation (turning palms outward) than I do; just enough for a grasp on a completely vertical foregrip to be a problem. An angle grip would do, but she could still get a grip on the bottom of a vertical grip; for that matter, they even sell little stubby ones about two inches long, plus longitudinally angled "shark grips." Might be worth looking for some pictures.

 

[Kingcreek]

She may not have the same hand strength throughout her range of motion. She's got 11 years more experience adapting to this than any of us. She should be centrally involved in any mods. Maybe there's a friendly OT that would help.

 

[TRX]

Just as a side thought, modern shooting stances seem to tend toward holding the gun straight out in front of you, what American shooters used to call "European style." The US Army used to instruct riflemen to turn their body at an angle, away from the target, and hold the rifle across their body. This provided more stable support from the offhand arm. I learned to shoot that way, and prefer it, which is why I find most modern rifle stocks too short and their optics set too far back.

Have you considered a sling? They've also fallen out of favor, but at one time no serious marksman was without one.

This old Army manual shows the "cross body" stance and use of the palm rest:

http://pdf.textfiles.com/manuals/MILITARY/us army%2520international rifle marksmanship guide.pdf

 

[iscareliberalsandlikeit]

Sorry for the late delay on the reply. Thank you all for the quick/great responses. The issue is called Radioulnar Synostosis and is where the radial and unla are fused at the elbow. My wife and I wanted to look for simple gun-swap specific solution for this issue before going the mechanical brace or other equipment route. The less we draw attention to the issue in front of her, the better. I was hoping to get something that was flexible for standing and kneeling positions. Most prone positions can use a support sling that she can just grab, so I'm not too worried about it. A buddy of mine who is more gun savvy than I am just suggested a Sten or Sturling...lol The thinking is sound and it's true she could hold the magazine without problem, I think there are better options out there. Bigbore44 I think I'm going to buy the suggested adjustable foregrip you suggested and something with a quad rail. Maybe a hi-point carbine if I can get those here in the awful state of California. Thank you everyone for their help!

 

[Mn Fats]

She's missing a bone in her right wing, correct? If she has all the capabilities in her left, then switch her over. Its been done many times with success. Side note- good job parenting.