Need for Crimping Step, Pistol Brass, Single - Stage vs. Progressive

[jmorris]

I am under the impression that when using a progressive press, one needs to flare the case lips wider, and as a result - crimping is more necessary.

And that the wider flare and crimping step is due to progressive presses having more slop and being less forgiving of misalignments due to their speed of operation.

Is this assumption correct?

EDIT: Context - automated bullet feeder.

Some dies can be less forgiving on progressives because they don’t have much radius on their entrances but no, you don‘t across the board need more or even any flair. It’s going to depend on what you are loading as well as what kind of bullet and feeder you are running.

Using a GSI feeder, for example, with my cast and coated bullets, this is how much flare I use.


That empty case is about to have a perfectly held bullet seated into it on the next down stroke and the near bullet will be “crimped”.

There is absolutely zero flare/bell on these .223 cases as these 55gn FMJ BT bullets are dropped on top.

KISS fed 1050

www.youtube.com

A number of variables effect results though.

If seating bullets by hand, I can imagine similar behavior with a progressive press.

How many of you don’t use a crimping step on your progressives, when using a bullet feeder?

I often don’t crimp rifle rounds bullet feeder or not. My “crimp” on many pistol rounds would be more accurately called the “unflare“ step. I almost never apply a crimp that disrupts the bullet shape and many do not have a cannelure to crimp into. So I remove the flare but do not shove the case into the bullet, swaging the bullet to a smaller diameter.

 

[243winxb]

There is absolutely zero flare/bell on these .223 cases as these 55gn FMJ BT bullets are dropped on top.

The Boatail acts as the expander. No even close to a flat base 9mm Luger round, unless using a Hornady 147 gr boattail bullet.

9mm using range pick ups.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I think “flair” and “crimp” have become the new boogie man words of reloading. Denying being a flairer and crimper is now fashionable; admitting to either is now heresy.

Why? Because competitive shooters are extremely superstitious. What works for the best of the best fellow competitors must be the only right way to do things.

 

[Charlie98]

Denying being a flairer and crimper is now fashionable; admitting to either is now heresy.

I guess I'll just continue to be unfashionable.

Actually, I'm with some of the others... I've become an M-die moonie, much of that is from my experience loading cast bullets in rifle cartridges. If you want to destroy some of your accuracy potential, go ahead and ram that soft lead bullet down in that undersized case mouth.

 

[Rule3]

I think “flair” and “crimp” have become the new boogie man words of reloading. Denying being a flairer and crimper is now fashionable; admitting to either is now heresy.

Why? Because competitive shooters are extremely superstitious. What works for the best of the best fellow competitors must be the only right way to do things.

Yep, the terminology being used in this thread is no longer acceptable.

It is now FRP (flair reduction procedure)!

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I guess I'll just continue to be unfashionable.

Actually, I'm with some of the others... I've become an M-die moonie, much of that is from my experience loading cast bullets in rifle cartridges. If you want to destroy some of your accuracy potential, go ahead and ram that soft lead bullet down in that undersized case mouth.

It’s like everything else in this hobby: it depends.
I do what I have found works for the bullets and loads I use and don’t worry about community wisdom on the subject. I have an open mind and am certainly open to learning but I look for the positive benefits before changing my routine. Changing methods can lead to mistakes and mistakes can be bad when dealing with nitro.
That’s why we tend to have so many tools: some for soft lead, others for hard lead, different tools for jacketed… I use NOE expanders for some cartridges and the Lee conical flair for others. It just depends.

No criticism of anyone else intended. I just find it ironic that the use of a method which has worked so well for decades is suddenly the subject of intense criticism.

 

[Jim Watson]

Another station heard from.

I flare the dickens out of mine. I want the bullet seated without any scraping of the surface. I figure I will lose the brass before I wear it out, so why be gentle?
A CFC die eliminates the flare and reduces the O.D. where the sizing die does not touch on 9mm.
A plain taper crimp puts a visible crimp on .45s, same as what Black Hills does on their commercial ammo.

 

[9mmepiphany]

A Lyman M Die flares the case. It may be called a profile expander but still works the same as a flaring die.

Well, I'll disagree on a couple of points,

1. There is no Flaring die. There are expanding dies and Expander dies...which expand the dimensions of the case mouth

2. The noun " flare" denotes that one end of the affected area is larger than the other...like bell bottom pants or the open end of a trumpet. The isn't what an M-die does. The M-die expands the case mouth, but the expanded portion has parallel sides...there is no trumpet/angle/flare. If there is a flare at the end of the expanded area, you are expending too far into the case mouth

 

[bfalcon00]

Always. For pistol, taper, just enough to get the flare out. For straightwall revolver,mild to wild depending on what I'm loading. For pretty much all my revolver stuff I've switched to the Redding profile crimp.

This exactly for me. The Redding profile crimp die is all I use on my straight wall pistol. Adjusting the die as needed depending on the application.

 

[dartor]

Well, I'll disagree on a couple of points,

1. There is no Flaring die. There are expanding dies and Expander dies...which expand the dimensions of the case mouth

There is indeed at least one flaring die out there:

Lee Precision, Inc.. Universal Case Expanding Die

Lee Universal Flaring Die gently flares the case mouth to accept cast bullets without shaving. Includes neck plugs for .22 cal through .45 cal

leeprecision.com

I bought one when first experimenting with cast bullets in rifle calibers. I've since changed to Lyman M dies.

 

[jmorris]

The Boatail acts as the expander. No even close to a flat base 9mm Luger round, unless using a Hornady 147 gr boattail bullet.

Exactly. Why I said, what one needs is dependent on what round, bullet and bullet feeder one is using.

I simply can’t do, with a MBF, what I can with a GSI feeder, for example. Different machines with different capabilities.

 

[DanK3Pos]

"On handgun cartridges, a sized belled (flared) case mouth diameter should measure approximately .010" larger than an unflared case mouth."
Dillon rl550c-manual, Page 30.

In my experience, coated or plated bullets need a little more flare than an FMJ. FMJ is just more forgiving. I err on the side of more flare for reloading speed on a Dillon 550 or 750. I also used to get 5 gallon buckets of range brass for a very good price (free).

"Taper Crimping of straight wall pistol cases simply flattens out the belling. The gradual taper at the top of the taper Crimp Die slightly reduces the diameter of the top portion of the case mouth. A Dillon Taper Crimp Die is used for rimless straight-walled or tapered cases such as the 9mm, .40 S&W, .45ACP. These styles of cartridges headspace on the case mouth. Roll crimping here would shorten the cartridge case causing improper head spacing in the chamber. Taper crimping can be used on bullets with or without a cannelure or a crimp groove. Again, crimping should only reduce the diameter of the case mouth .001”-002”."
Dillon Die Instructions, Page 8.

Size your brass, flare about .010", seat, then crimp to remove flare. I like to use case gauges for cartridges like the 9mm and I increase crimp until the completed cartridge plunks in the case gauge. I want my ammo to run in any of my guns chambered for that cartridge, so a barrel plunk test isn't the best idea.

 

[Jim Watson]

In olden times, Speer said of the "flying ashtray" JHP, that the cannelure was shallow so you could crimp into it and still have enough case mouth showing for headspace control.

 

[mdi]

With taper crimp, it's still neck tension that holds the bullet. Taper crimp just sizes the case mouth to proper diameter. Well, properly done taper crimp, that is. Too much is no bueno.

FWIW; I don't crimp any semi-auto handloads, I just deflare with my deflaring die (aka taper crimp die). I do not add any neck tension in this step. The neck tension on my loads is from the sizing/decapping die. Never any trouble with loose bullets in 30+ years of reloading semi-auto ammo...

I often tell newer reloaders to use as much flare as needed to seat bullets straight (to much flare is when the case won't fit in the seating die or scrapes the insides). Flare is removed in the crimping step. Get good shootable ammo now and worry about case life, neck splits later...

 

[Jim Watson]

Got to be careful, I have seen rounds with residual flare because the loader was afraid of applying CRIMP! They didn't feed too well.

 

[Walkalong]

2. The noun " flare" denotes that one end of the affected area is larger than the other...like bell bottom pants or the open end of a trumpet. The isn't what an M-die does. The M-die expands the case mouth, but the expanded portion has parallel sides...there is no trumpet/angle/flare. If there is a flare at the end of the expanded area, you are expending too far into the case mouth

It does both, expands and flares, like 99% of pistol die set "expanders". It just does a "straight" "flare"

Both talking about the Lyman M Die and its copies.

 

[NMexJim]

Going back to the OP, I would ask how long it took you to load 3,000 on a single-stage press? I can move 500 rounds on my LNL in a couple lazy hours. If I bother to run case and bullet feed, that number goes up.

As far as slop w/ a progressive, there is no slop in the ram and the feed system. There is a bit in shell plates, but that's quickly corrected in the dies. I mean I'm loading .243 with .002 runout on mine. I wouldn't call that a sloppy system.

And flares, OMG. We have a lot of threads on flaring, crimping, bullet tension and so on. I flare and "crimp". I like the FRP from Rule 3. I've always flared. I don't worry about it. I think it's a moot point,

 

[The Glockodile]

Going back to the OP, I would ask how long it took you to load 3,000 on a single-stage press? I can move 500 rounds on my LNL in a couple lazy hours. If I bother to run case and bullet feed, that number goes up.

As far as slop w/ a progressive, there is no slop in the ram and the feed system. There is a bit in shell plates, but that's quickly corrected in the dies. I mean I'm loading .243 with .002 runout on mine. I wouldn't call that a sloppy system.

I’m not sure how long it takes.

I didn’t imply that I did the whole 3000 in one sitting.

This was my first “mundane” pistol cartridge that I started handloading for, and was done over a couple of months, probably.

No failures through mostly Bar - Sto barrels, thus far - but I was taken by surprise with a “popular accuracy load of 6.0 grains of Power Pistol under a 125 grain HAP.” That load was too hot for my Glock 17L, to the point where I suspect it was causing excessive frame flex, and the trigger pin walking out.

I have a routine which keeps things in “steady state.”

After a range session, the brass gets deprimed and wet tumbled (I mysteriously end up coming back with twice to thrice as much brass as I left with, with regard to 9mm).

On a subsequent day, it’s sizing and flaring. Maybe split over two days, depending on work.

[some Dillon Carbide die and a Redding Titanium Nitride neck dilating button / mandrel]

On another, it’s priming.

[some RCBS hand primer]

Last step, it’s powder and bullet seating.

[a fancy, expemsive Harrel’s measure and one of those Redding bullet seaters with the sliding sleeve and micrometer]

I would typically load around 300 to 600 for a weekend.

Dispensing powder used to be problematic, until I started using Harrel’s Schuetzen Pistol Measure.

It’s so accurate and precise with Power Pistol and Longshot, that I trust it enough to load “not recommended, bad idea” 9x25mm Dillon rounds.

I’ll probably get a Dillon 550 next, it seems to suit my volume best.

And flares, OMG. We have a lot of threads on flaring, crimping, bullet tension and so on. I flare and "crimp". I like the FRP from Rule 3. I've always flared. I don't worry about it. I think it's a moot point,

You’d think that I was challenging someone’s supreme authoritaaay, while peeing on their god.

BUT, I‘m liking all the posts anyway - as I welcome all sorts of opinions.

 

[Walkalong]

Going back to the OP, I would ask how long it took you to load 3,000 on a single-stage press? I can move 500 rounds on my LNL in a couple lazy hours. If I bother to run case and bullet feed, that number goes up.

As far as slop w/ a progressive, there is no slop in the ram and the feed system. There is a bit in shell plates, but that's quickly corrected in the dies. I mean I'm loading .243 with .002 runout on mine. I wouldn't call that a sloppy system.

And flares, OMG. We have a lot of threads on flaring, crimping, bullet tension and so on. I flare and "crimp". I like the FRP from Rule 3. I've always flared. I don't worry about it. I think it's a moot point,

We need to make sure we differentiate between rifle and pistol loading. We started off on pistol, so most of the replies are for that.

 

[The Glockodile]

We need to make sure we differentiate between rifle and pistol loading. We started off on pistol, so most of the replies are for that.

And maybe demand making the distinction between “crimping” and “de - flaring,” as I think I‘m beginning to hear lots of heavy breathing over some posts

Huff

Huff

Huff

Pant

Pant

Pant

 

[nettlle]

A taper crimp die doesn't actually crimp. It just removes the flare from flaring or a M Die. If you crank your taper crimp die too much it will squish the bullet and that's not good.

 

[Walkalong]

And maybe demand making the distinction between “crimping” and “de - flaring,”

I try to, and anyone who reads here regularly knows that's how I look at a proper taper "crimp" for auto pistol calibers.

 

[Rodfac]

I taper crimp to just take the edge off. I don't consider a crimp having any thing to do with neck tension for auto loaders. Like to just get rid of the edge when you slide your finger over it.

Good advice here...taper crimping eliminates one possible source of feeding problems in auto-loaders. With revolvers a taper crimp on target ammunition does about the same and prevents bullet jump forward in recoil possibly tying up the gun. For heavier loads, a roll crimp is better in that regards, and too, it prevents bullet set back if the rounds are fed from a lever gun's tubular magazine. Best Regards, Rod

 

[NMexJim]

We need to make sure we differentiate between rifle and pistol loading. We started off on pistol, so most of the replies are for that.

Didn't mean to confuse. The reason I referred to a rifle cartridge at all was to point out that progressives are not "sloppy" and can load precision ammunition pretty well. It's not just the press we need to include in the calculation, but the dies as well. Mea culpa.

 

[The Glockodile]

I set de boolet, eet no sitz.

I poosh de boolet lightlee enuff, eet sitz.

I suspect this amount of flare, which hasn’t required de - crimp… er, …flaring, will do