Need help on history of two antique rifles..German Masuer and Mexican rifle

[BigMik1]

Hello,

I am a helper for a military history museum in Houston. We have a German rifle we want some info on. It is a Mauser with the words Gew 98, so we think it's a Mauser Gew 98, it also has the picture of a royal emblem on top of the barrel. We found the serial number 4912 in a few places also.

Can anyone help us on this? Was it possible it was used in WWI?

Also we have a Mexican rifle that we believe is a imported springfield. It has a serial number of 6835 and a picture of the the egale with the snake in it's mouth, the symbol of the Mexican Republic and the words "República Mexicana" under the emblem.

Any history to this gun. What year could it have been made and used?

Thanks for your help in advance,

BigMik1

 

[BigMik1]

Colt Model of 1911

We also just recieved from a WWII Vet, a Colt Model of 1911 U.S. Army No. 76428, with two magazines. Condition is not the best, but okay.

Is it a way to get more history and info on this pistol?

Thanks,

BigMik1

 

[Brian Williams]

FOR THE 1911 GO TO http://forums.1911forum.com/, If they can not help go to www.m1911.org
For the rifles go to http://www.ambackforum.com/ and porst in the Battlerifles forum.

The 1911 is an early number. Does it have colt marking, Pictures would be nice

 

[BigMik1]

Thanks Brian, what do you mean "The 1911 is an early number."? And no it doesn't have colt markings, just a big "Property of US Army".

BigMik1

 

[BigMik1]

Brian,

I called the Museum and they looked at the pistol again. It does say it's a Colt.

BigMik1

 

[SDC]

On the two rifles, the 1898 Mauser could certainly have been used in WW1; if you post a picture of the top of the receiver, someone here will be able to tell you which manufacturer made it (any one of 7 or 8) and whether or not it was re-fitted after WW1. We'd need more info (and pictures) on the Mexican Mauser to nail that one down; they were made both IN Mexico, and FOR Mexico, in several different production runs and models.

 

[Old Fuff]

Positive identification concerning the authenticity and originality of your 1911 pistol would require a much more detailed description of the markings on the slide, barrel and frame ... and concise pictures would be very helpful.

However for the moment I can confirm that Model 1911 .45 pistols in the serial number range 72571 to 83855 (which includes pistol No. 76428) were manufactured at the U. S. Government Arsenal at Springfield, MA during 1914. Therefore the slide should have Springfield Armory markings.

While Colt was the original and prime contractor for these weapons, the U.S. Army wanted an alternative source, and it was agreed that after Colt had sold 50,000 pistols to the government, the Army would be allowed to tool up at least one of its arsenals to make 1911 pistols.

To avoid having two pistols with identical serial numbers it was the practice to assign each contractor a block of serial numbers that would not conflict with each other. Consequently Springfield Armory guns started at No. 72,571 rather then No. 1.

After several small start-up runs the first production of 230 pistols was recorded on April 25, 1914. Pistol No. 76428 was probably produced around June-August, 1914.

Pistol production was ended at Springfield Armory in early 1917, after World War One in Europe intensified and it was decided that the Springfield facility would produce Model 1903 rifles exclusively, as they were considered to be the more important.

It is probable that this pistol was used in World War One, and it is quite possible it re-issued during World War Two.

Edited to add: It is also possible that it was issued to a unit patroling the US/Mexican border prior to our entry into W.W.-1. in 1918. The old Springfield Armory is now a museum, and if "your" museum wrote a request they might research their records. Most museum folks are buddies under the skin ...

 

[BigMik1]

Old Fluff,

Thanks for the info, wow...we will check with the Springfield Armory to see if they will do it.

BigMik1

 

[BigMik1]

Here are some pictures of the German Rifle:

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[BigMik1]

The Mexican rifle is not a Mauser, I am finally home and can look at my notes, sorry about the springfield mistake, I think it's a Mexican Remington Rolling Block. The receiver displays a Mexican crest with wording, "Republica Mexicana" under it.

BigMik1

 

[BigMik1]

Still need the help!! #BUMP#

BigMik1

 

[Old Fuff]

The Mexicans bought a lot of those Remington Rolling Block's because it was so easy to train troops to use them. They were chambered to use the same 7mm cartridge used in the Mauser bolt actions they had. During the 1910 Revolution and what followed Mexiicans who were being pressed would often cross over into the United States and surrender themselves and they're weapons. You find these scattered all up and down the Texas/New Mexico/Arizona border country.

I'll see if I can find you more informtion.

Edited to add: On the Mauser's receiver ring I can make out a crown, a word, and the date 1916. But I can't read the word. What is it?

 

[BigMik1]

Old Fuff

The Mexicans bought a lot of those Remington Rolling Block's because it was so easy to train troops to use them. They were chambered to use the same 7mm cartridge used in the Mauser bolt actions they had. During the 1910 Revolution and what followed Mexiicans who were being pressed would often cross over into the United States and surrender themselves and they're weapons. You find these scattered all up and down the Texas/New Mexico/Arizona border country.

I'll see if I can find you more informtion.

Thanks Old Fluff, please see what you can find.

To the folks on this forum, thanks for the help, we are a small Museum and don't have the funds and resources to really research these rifles and pistols. So thanks so much. All we want to do is find out the history to these weapons and display them with honor.

BigMik1

 

[BigG]

I believe the word is "Amberg," a city in Germany. Probably the site of a royal arsenal. HTH

 

[Old Fuff]

Big G:

Thanks, I thought that was likely the case, but I wanted to confirm it to be sure.

 

[BigMik1]

So the German rifle is probably WWI?

BigMik1

 

[Old Fuff]

I need to go further into the issue, but the rifle would appear to be a German military model that was made in 1916. In Europe the First World War extended from 1914 to 1918. So yes, it was likely used by the German Imperial Army during World War One, and possibly though less so, in World War Two as well.

 

[BigMik1]

Old Fuff, did you find out anything else? Eager to know.

BigMik1

 

[Old Fuff]

I'm still working on the Remington Rolling Block rifle. I'll get back to you with more information sometime on Friday. That one in particular has a tie-in with Texas history. It is not unusual to find photographs of Mexican troops or rebels with these rifles.

 

[BigMik1]

Thanks Old Fuff,

I appreciate your help, can't wait to see what you come up with. This Monday I will take some pictures and get serial numbers of some more rifles we have. Two British Enfields, one WWII Japanese rifle, one WWII Italian rifle and one 1866 US Army rifle.

BigMik1

 

[Jim K]

The rifle is a German Gewehr (rifle) Model 1898, made at Amberg Arsenal in (it looks like) 1916. It was standard German WWI issue. Other arsenals which made the rifles were Spandau, Danzig, and Erfurt, as well as the commercial maker (and original developer) Deutsche Waffen-und Munitionsfabriken, Berlin, successor to the Mauser Brothers. Some of those old rifles were updated for issue in WWII, others were just issued but were not front-line equipment.

That one looks like it could use a good cleaning before putting it on display. Probably a WWI capture that was handed down as "grandpa's old gun" and never touched!

Jim

 

[Old Fuff]

It is a bit difficult to conclusively identify the museum's Remington Rolling Block rifle (or carbine, as the case may be) without either a very detailed description of even better, a good photograph.

The simple, sturdy Rolling Block Remington's originated in 1866, and in one form or another remained in production until about 1934. During that period the basic design was used to make pistols and shotguns, as well as rifles, military muskets, and carbines.

However given the caliber (7mm x 57 Mauser) and Mexican government markings, you most likely have a model 1897/02 musket or carbine. The "02" refers to 1902 when the final design improvement on these rifles was made to make them strong enough to handle modern (at that time) rifle ammunition loaded with smokeless powder and to facilitate ejecting as well as extracting the fired case, and to be able to eject a rimless as well as rimed case.

The 7mm x 57 Mauser cartridge was rimless, and designed to be used in German bolt-action Mauser rifles, much like the World War One Mauser you have. The Mexican government, as well as a number of other countries in Central and South America used the 7mm Mauser rifle to arm regular troops, and the Remington to arm irregulars that were mostly illerateate peasants who were usually regarded as cannon fodder. Even in the hands of these poorly trained soldiers the practically indestructible Remington's gave good service. During the Mexican Revolution of 1910 many rebels also obtained these rifles or carbines through battlefield capture, American gunrunners or army deserters who had little reason to sacrifice their lives to support those who often impressed them into service against their will.

Depending on the fortune's of war, many solders or rebels would cross into the United States and surrender themselves and their weapons to the first American they met when things were going badly for they're respective sides. Many of these forfeited arms remain with the descendents of those that they were given too, even to this day.

 

[BigMik1]

Thanks guys for your help, you all are a great. I will be at the Museum on Monday to take pictures of all the rifles and pistols. I will upload the pictures so you can take a look at them.

If we clean the Mauser, will the value decrease eventhough we will never sell it?

BigMik1

 

[Old Fuff]

>> If we clean the Mauser, will the value decrease eventhough we will never sell it? <<

No, if you do it the right way (the wrong way could be costly). Use the search feature on this forum and the key word "cleaning" and you will find tons of past threads with advise.