Need Legal Advice on Buying Handgun

[walterdonovan]

Hello Everyone

I am new to the forum and this is my first post

I have a problem. I have decided recently that in order to protect myself and my family I would like to own a handgun. I live in NJ, and the laws are extraordinarily onerous. I went to the local police department to apply for a permit, and I was told by the detective that because of an event in my past (not a criminal conviction or involutary hospitalization) that the application process would involve a horribly invasive investigation including all medical records, and that my confidential information would then go on record forever at the police department as public information even if I was rejected. This, obviously, was unacceptable.

So, I am wondering how I can get around this and buy a handgun leagally through some other method. I want to stress that I do not want to break the law, but I am certainly willing to exploit loopholes because I feel my rights have been trampled. Are there any states in which out-of-state people can buy? Are there any gunshow laws? Special circumstances in person to person sales as opposed to dealers? Any way that an honest citizen from NJ can get a handgun without being crucified by the NJ permit process? As I said I have never committed a criminal act and so I will pass any federal criminal background check, so that is not an issue.

I would really appreciate any advice

thanks very much

 

[XavierBreath]

Federal law prohibits the purchase of out of state firearms except through a FFL.

I am not familiar with the laws of New Jersey, so I can not offer much advice.

I would advise speaking with a licensed gun dealer in New Jersey (assuming there are any) and looking at your options. The dealer will know the laws more intricately, and have an intrest in helping you acquire a gun. The local police do not.

If what you are looking for is home protection, a shotgun may be a much better choice than a handgun, and the restrictions may be less. The shotgun will be less expensive, and it will give you the arguably most effective home defense weapon while you wait on a permit.

All in all, this is a great example of why those who do not own guns should still support gun rights. You never know when you might want to purchase a gun for your own protection.

Whether you arm yourself with a handgun, a shotgun, or a steak knife, realize that it is training and tactics that will enable you to survive a threat on your life, not a mechanical device. Get training. Good luck to you.

 

[mljdeckard]

Without spelling out what the event was, (and how they know about it,) it's going to be tough for us to know if you have state trouble or local trouble.

 

[walterdonovan]

About 2 years ago I voluntarily admitted myself to a mental health facility for a few days. I included this information in the application because they specify any treatment or observance by a mental health professional or any time in a mental health facility for any reason. I was not committed, declared dangerous or menatlly unstable whatsoever, but the laws in NJ mean that the instant a mental health issue of any kind appears you can never get away from it.

 

[Art Eatman]

Rest assured that "get around" is not part of the advice which will be given at this website.

As far as your rights being trampled, you are far better off with advice from a lawyer in your state than from anything any of us could tell you. Sure, you can find words of sympathy. They won't change your situation at all, however.

 

[everallm]

The police officer was, shall we say, being economical with the truth.

I am assuming you do not fall into the NICS background checks bucket of evil doers, convicted felon, involuntary committal on mental health grounds etc.

The NJ system is the same and equally arduous for all of us.

First apply for the a Firearms ID card and a pistol permit to purchase. These are both on the same form. THIS IS NOT A PUBLIC RECORD

You also have to fill in the mental health waiver form to ensure you have not been involuntarily committed on mental health grounds. THIS IS NOT A PUBLIC RECORD

Basically the state police check if they have been forwarded any records about you and you family doctor MAY be asked if you have been held.

This is not invasive and does not include items such as therapy, personal hygiene, whether you have dandruff etc. It is a simple binary YES/NO, sign here, for mental illness nothing else is requested or released and if it ever leaks you can sue the bollocks off them.

You have to be fingerprinted for the FID which then goes off to the state police/FBI for review. Basically are you a criminal in the system.

This should only take a couple of weeks and the legislation says 30 days but in reality 3 months is regarded as fast.

I gave them 30 days then on day 31, 38, 45, 52 called and made myself a courteous, persistent pain in the rear.

Basic write up on the needs and requirements.

http://www.njguns.com/permit.htm

Do not try and "work around" the system, the police and judiciary in NJ have no sense of humour around firearms.

 

[Tom488]

As others have said, there is NO way to purchase a handgun while residing in the state of NJ without applying for a permit to purchase. The application for an FID (Firearms ID card - essentially a permit to purchase rifles and shotguns) is the same as it is for a permit to purchase a handgun. The only difference is the handgun permit will cost you an extra $2 - so purchasing a shotgun won't be any easier than purchasing a handgun, as far as the application goes.

A voluntary admission to a mental institution should not deprive you of your rights, however, the language of the law is (gee, go figure) a little vague. It said that no permit shall be issued to any person who has ever been confined for a mental disorder, unless that person can produce a certificate from a medical doctor or psychiatrist that he is no longer suffering from that particular disability.

Now, if you voluntarily admitted yourself, and you were free to leave at any time, then I don't see how that would be a problem. However, like everyone else here, IANAL, and it may behoove you to buy an hour of an attorney's time who is experienced with NJ's patchwork of firearms laws.

However, if I were in your position, I'd just give the application a shot. If it came back denied, then it's time to get a lawyer and appeal the application.

Good luck

 

[Waitone]

and the obvious. . . . . . move !

 

[woo18]

you may want to consult a lawyer.

 

[Standing Wolf]

...I was told by the detective that because of an event in my past (not a criminal conviction or involutary hospitalization) that the application process would involve a horribly invasive investigation including all medical records, and that my confidential information would then go on record forever at the police department as public information even if I was rejected.

Smells something like intimidation to me.

 

[highlander 5]

Just cause the cop says so don't make it true. Cops ENFORCE the law they do not make the law. Get thee to a firearms attorney asap.

 

[jedwi]

Read his post carefully.... "Can I go to another state", "legal loopholes", etc. Sir, you choose to live where you are...You must abide by the laws there...There are no loopholes....Bothers me when some guy wants this forum to tell him how to circumvent his state laws. Is there another agenda?

 

[Solo Flyer]

walterdonovan,Evan F.Nappen is considered NJ's top firearms attorney and has a nationwide reputation.
He's in Eatontown only a short distance from you.
If you need serious help from a real pro ,this is the man I would turn to.
As others have said,take no short cuts on firearms in NJ.

http://www.evannappen.com/

 

[walterdonovan]

thanks to everyone who has given a reply.

I want to address a few issues. First of all, to all the various forms of the response "the cop was lying/doesn't know what he is talking about" that doesn't matter. I have to apply for a permit through my township police department, and the cop I spoke to was the detective in charge of firearm permit applications. Whether he was full of it or not, what he told was what he WAS going to do. He told me, in no uncertain terms, that a person has to be squeaky clean to get a gun in NJ, and that I should really really consider if it was worth it for me to go through the investigation he was telling me he would undertake. Even if I was rejected, even if I was rejected and then accepted on appeal, he was talking about confidential medical records on file with the police including all files, all notes the doctors took, everythign I said and was said about me etc. He, for all practical purposes, told me that he would **** me if I tried to apply and that I shouldn't even try. In that sense I guess he was almost being curteous.

Secondly, in response to all the replies that were any form of "move/you don't have to live in NJ" don't be ignorant. I live in NJ because my job is here and my family and my life. I am not going to upend my life and move to another state over a handgun.

Lastly, I am offended by the response from Jedwi. Don't lecture me like you have some moral authority. The laws are meant to serve the people, not for the people to serve the laws. I am telling you I am being deiscriminated against by paranoid state laws that are among the strictest in the country, yet You talk like I am some criminal trying to use you, like I am some lying dog. You want to know what my agenda is? My agenda is to be able to defend my family in case of emergency or disaster or the state ever is incapable of doing it. Any man on this earth that has a problem with that agenda has a problem with me. I read a book called "The Road" by Cormac McCarthy and it opened my eyes. A father in a world where goverment has broken down has a ****ty old revolver and two bullets to defend his son. The only thing that stands between them being together and being lost foirever is that ****ty old gun and those two bullets. Thats my agenda.


I am going to check out this attorney Mr. Nappen. thanks Solo Flyer.

 

[jorb]

I honestly don't think anyone was casting aspersions on you, or to lecture you. Thats not what most people on this site are about. Your last sentence was the best advice anyone else could give you. Good luck to you.

 

[Jim K]

In many areas, the police are ordered to discourage all permit applicants by lying about the law, exaggerating the difficulty, or even threats of physical violence. The name of the game is that the powers that be don't want ANYONE except their goons and their bought and paid for cops to have guns, and they will do everything possible to make sure the people they want to control remain unarmed.

Jim

 

[jedwi]

I lectured no one , sir....I just recommended scrutiny of your post...I am sorry for your circumstance and wish you the very best....

 

[Pat Cannon]

If you're not planning on carrying outside the home, consider a shotgun instead. Probably cheaper, almost certainly less legal hoops to jump through, and, without any question, way more effective.

 

[Deavis]

circumvent his state laws

Taking advantage of loopholes is not circumventing the law. It is a time-honored and totally acceptable behaivor. If they didn't specifically outlaw it, then it is legal in the U.S. The IRS is a great example.

 

[Oro]

I would simply go back to the officer and politely start the process. It might be his method of deterring applicants and "pre-screening" them.

I went through the hassle in NYC when I was there - got all kinds of discouraging advice/comments/expectations. Once I sent in the paperwork, the application flew through and I had my permit in a very short period of time. When I went back a second time for a long-gun permit, it was issued in days because of the existing pistol permit.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Whether he was full of it or not, what he told was what he WAS going to do. He told me, in no uncertain terms, that a person has to be squeaky clean to get a gun in NJ, and that I should really really consider if it was worth it for me to go through the investigation he was telling me he would undertake. Even if I was rejected, even if I was rejected and then accepted on appeal, he was talking about confidential medical records on file with the police including all files, all notes the doctors took, everythign I said and was said about me etc. He, for all practical purposes, told me that he would **** me if I tried to apply and that I shouldn't even try.

By all means, speak with Attorney Nappen. Be sure to give him complete information. I don't mean to insult, but I am not sure you have given us complete information. In your post just above, you said the police officer "was talking about confidential medical records on file with the police including all files, all notes the doctors took, everythign I said and was said about me etc."

To which, if I were Attorney Nappen, I would have to ask, "WHAT confidential medical records on file with the police"? You said you voluntarily checked into a facility for several days, were not committed by any court order, and were (I assume) free to walk out at any time. I don't know about New Jersey, but I have never heard of any state or other jurisdiction in which medical records pertaining to such a voluntary, observational stay would or even could be turned over to the police. Ditto if a person voluntarily enters therapy or counseling. Those records are, indeed, confidential, and the doctor or social worker is legally barred from divulging them to anyone, even the police, in the absence of a court order.

So ... what confidential medical records of yours do the police have? You don't have to answer in the open forum, I'm not trying to pry. I'm just trying to point out that the police can look as hard as they want, but if there ain't nuthin' there, they ain't gonna see nuthin'. If your past episode was perhaps different from the way you have portrayed it, then perhaps there is reason to be concerned. That's none of my beeswax.

 

[Tom488]

consider a shotgun instead. Probably cheaper, almost certainly less legal hoops to jump through

I could have sworn I already said this was false.... hey, look - I did

 

[walterdonovan]

Perhaps I was not totally clear.

Once I had indicated there was something (and it could have been anything) pertaining to a mental health issue, it red flagged me for investigation. So, in order to process my application, the detective was going to do an investigation, and he wanted me to consent to giving up the conifidentiality of my medical records. If I did not, there would be no investigation but I would be summarily rejected with no appeal (like if you are caught driving drunk and refuse the breathalizer, you are as good as guilty in the court's eyes). If I did consent, then the investigation, and the records, would become part of the police department file. The investigation is public info, and if the records are consentually released as part of the investigation...you get the picture.

 

[walterdonovan]

Also, while I am not talking about criminal info, I am talking about private, personal info. I admitted myself because I was out of work, had bills piling up, I was depressed and drinking and feeling just terrible. I did it as a step to be proactive and take a drastic step to get my life back in the right direction (and it WORKED). However, I said a lot of depressed things in there as you can imagine. Those records are not by any means criminal but they are personal and private and someone reading them and not knowing me as a person is not likely going to give me a gun, if you know what I mean.

 

[walterdonovan]

then, if you are rejected and then try to apply for a permit sometime down the road, when they ask if you have ever been rejected from getting a permit and you say yes, you are red flagged for another investigation.