Need load info for 9mm Nato

N555 said:
I don't think you are going to achieve "mil spec velocity" with titegroup.
And I'm pretty sure the standard nato round uses a 124gr round nose bullet.
Most of the 125gr bullets I see are truncated cone style.
Click to expand...

STANAG 4090 lists specs for NATO 9mm. Bullet weight can be 108 to 128 grains.
 
lordpaxman said:
What I found interesting about all this is the Hodgdon online reloading site allows you to select 9 +P, but only Accurate and Ramshot data show up, at least for me.
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That's due to Hodgdon acquiring Accurate and Ramshot and their 9mm normal SAAMI pressure and +P load data were added to Hodgdon online data center.
 
LiveLife said:
That's due to Hodgdon acquiring Accurate and Ramshot and their 9mm normal SAAMI pressure and +P load data were added to Hodgdon online data center.
Click to expand...

LiveLife said:
Hodgdon now owns and sells Ramshot Silhouette and updated their burn rate chart in 2022
Click to expand...

Correct... all they did was copy and reformat the Western data. If you look at that 2022 chart... I really wonder if they didn't make a typo... they have Zip as a slower powder than both Silhouette AND TrueBlue??? No way...

I really, really detest that numerical powder ranking chart, I prefer this one... which shows powder burn rate in a relative position to other powders...

Rl2iCvnl.jpg
 
LiveLife said:
That's due to Hodgdon acquiring Accurate and Ramshot and their 9mm normal SAAMI pressure and +P load data were added to Hodgdon online data center.
Click to expand...
I understand Hodgdon acquired them and added them to the online center, my point is you can look at something like .38 special +P or .38 super +P and see Hodgdon or Winchester powders listed albeit there are more Accurate and Ramshot + P data. It seems Hodgdon was reluctant to venture into +P territory with their original powder set.
 
lordpaxman said:
I understand Hodgdon acquired them and added them to the online center, my point is you can look at something like .38 special +P or .38 super +P and see Hodgdon or Winchester powders listed albeit there are more Accurate and Ramshot + P data. It seems Hodgdon was reluctant to venture into +P territory with their original powder set.
Click to expand...
It does make me wonder who does the actual testing for Hodgdon, now. Obviously they haven’t done anything new with their most recent acquisitions but now I wonder - will Hodgdon ever requisition new testing?
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Hodgdon ... Obviously they haven’t done anything new with their most recent acquisitions but now I wonder - will Hodgdon ever requisition new testing?
Click to expand...
Hodgdon has over the years and decades:
  • Published load data for chamber pressure went from CUP to PSI
  • Berry's 9mm 124 gr HBRN-TP was added using 1.150" OAL
  • IMR Red and Target were added
  • W244 load data was added
  • 9mm 115 gr Lead RN was added using 1.100" OAL
  • 9mm 115 gr Speer GDHP was added using 1.125" OAL
  • Berry's 9mm 130 gr regular RN was added using 1.150" OAL
  • ACME 9mm 135 gr coated RN was added using 1.150" OAL
  • ACME 9mm 145 gr coated RN was added using 1.150" OAL
 
To push a 9mm 124gr FMJ at top velocity, load it long (1.15") and use Power Pistol. I'm not aware of any +P data for Power Pistol, but Alliant's 2004 book shows 6.6gr (MAX) PP pushing a 125gr FMJ to 1235 at 34ksi from a 4" barrel.

Flash and boom may not be NATO spec, but velocity will be quite close to LiveLife's numbers in post #5.
 
So I made up a load: 125gr fmj over 3.6gr of Clays. Blazer brass only.
Fired perfectly with no jams in my new Ap-5.
The Winchester NATO rounds still cause jams.
Could this be due to the thicker Winchester brass?
 
Nice! Clays is very fast, not sure that’ll meet your “nato” objective, but glad they worked.
What kind of jam are you getting?
 
Propellant Technology and Ball Powder Propellant, St. Marks Powder (gd-ots.com)

Most of the small arms powder is ball and is manufactured at the St. Marks facility. Hogdon is a major distributor for St. Marks. This is an interesting read as is a read on the recent history of Lake City.

I dug through pages of this not long ago and did find a list of their powders and uses including 9mm. I can't find that right off today but I'll look again and see if I can lay hands on it. In the meantime, this thread will get you started on your quest. :)
 
NMexJim said:
St. Marks facility. Hogdon is a major distributor for St. Marks. This is an interesting read as is a read on the recent history of Lake City.

powders and uses including 9mm. I can't find that right off today
Click to expand...
Here you go - https://www.gd-ots.com/propellants/ball-powder-propellants/
  • WPR 270 - 9mm NATO HPT
  • WPR 289 - 9mm NATO M882
  • WPR 293 - 9mm Subsonic
In recent years, Winchester won government contracts to produce significant amount of small arms ammunition (7.62x51, 5.56, .50 Cal, etc.) previously produced by Federal/Vista Outdoor (Federal still maintains many state/government agency contracts) - https://winchester.com/Support/Medi...llion-Department-of-Defense-Contract-Addition

"This second source contract award from the DOD is in addition to a recently awarded U.S. Army pistol contract and many other ongoing contracts with state and federal agencies."​

And in 2006, Hodgdon was licensed to sell Winchester powders under their labels like HP-38 for W231, H110 for W296, etc. and load data for these "same/exact" powders merged and became same - https://hodgdon.com/company/about-us/
 
Last edited:
Hockey7711 said:
I have some Winchester NATO on order, but I'm trying to reproduce a similar cartridge so I don't have to keep buying it
It doesn't have to be exactly the same, but I need a stronger recoil to operate the bolt on my ap-5.
They recommend the NATO ammo for the first 500 rounds for break- in.
A p+ load is 125 and accurate #2 using 4-4.3 grains.
Could I use something like that on the lower end? I have some accurate #2.
Click to expand...

You don't need anything "hot" for your Ap5.

"Normal" 124 gr will do for the break-in. As in 124 gr 1125-1150 fps. (From a 4-5 in pistol) 147 gr at 900-1000 fps (as from a pistol) will work fine, too.

The roller-action is great but you can beat up the receiver running too much hot ammo through it. It's not an Uzi. :D

Use MKE mags or HK mags. HK mags are more likely to feed JHP's and flat-nose ammo better than the MKE's. Any other mag is a dice-roll and often a headache. Buy the LULA mag loader!

Steel and aluminum-cased ammo don't do well often in long, steel magazines and will sometimes get stuck.
 
Otto said:
TItegroup is the 1st powder every noob buys.
It’s also the most unforgiving.
Click to expand...
That’s because the internet experts talk every noob out of buying and using the most versatile, forgiving, reliable, and easy to learn powder of all time: Unique. “It doesn’t meter well,” seems to be the most popular knock on any non-ball type powder.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
That’s because the internet experts talk every noob out of buying and using the most versatile, forgiving, reliable, and easy to learn powder of all time: Unique. “It doesn’t meter well,” seems to be the most popular knock on any non-ball type powder.
Click to expand...

Metering is important, too.

How does unique flow through a Lee Drum? :)
 
LiveLife said:
Hodgdon now owns and sells Ramshot Silhouette and updated their burn rate chart in 2022 - https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2023-burn-rate-chart.pdf

On the new Hodgdon burn rate chart, Titegroup is #15 and Silhouette is #17 where W231 is #28.

So it doesn't matter what previous burn rate chart listed Silhouette/WAP as Hodgdon now lists Silhouette at near Titegroup burn rate.

If I can find them, I may do chrono testing with Silhouette compared to BE-86 to verify.
Click to expand...

Whoa! Moving a powder from near a "SLOW" burn rate to a much "faster" burn rate is pretty unusual! I've never seen this before. I cant wait to hear an explanation!
 
LiveLife said:
Here you go - https://www.gd-ots.com/propellants/ball-powder-propellants/
  • WPR 270 - 9mm NATO HPT
  • WPR 289 - 9mm NATO M882
  • WPR 293 - 9mm Subsonic
In recent years, Winchester won government contracts to produce significant amount of small arms ammunition (7.62x51, 5.56, .50 Cal, etc.) previously produced by Federal/Vista Outdoor (Federal still maintains many state/government agency contracts) - https://winchester.com/Support/Medi...llion-Department-of-Defense-Contract-Addition

"This second source contract award from the DOD is in addition to a recently awarded U.S. Army pistol contract and many other ongoing contracts with state and federal agencies."​

And in 2006, Hodgdon was licensed to sell Winchester powders under their labels like HP-38 for W231, H110 for W296, etc. and load data for these "same/exact" powders merged and became same - https://hodgdon.com/company/about-us/
Click to expand...

That’s the page. Thanks.
 
They recommend the NATO ammo for break in, but I found the blazer 124's work quite well.
The clays 125's worked too.
I'm going to do a milder +p load with 124's and accurate #2 next.
I don't like the Winchester NATO at all.
 
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