never exceed loads

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SHusky57

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This is just a hypothetical question from a beginner.

If the never exeed load is 7.4 grains of powder, and you were to put 7.5 or 7.6 grains in - would this create an unsafe condition?

I know reloads explode when you double charge, but how much tolerance exists?

I'm loading 200 gr TMJs in 45acp, with Power Pistol.
The only reason I ask is because I bumped my scale and I think a few of my 7.4 loads are actually at 7.5....
 
Question...Is there a good reason to even load to maximum in the first place?

And...Looks like you will be needing an enertia (error eraser) hammer...Got one?
 
I don't know where you got your "never exceed" load, but:
You are below maximum with a 200 grain bullet at either load weight.

Alliant shows a max load of Power Pistol in .45 ACP with a 200 grain Gold-Dot as 8.3 grains.

Max with a 230 TMJ as 8.1 grains.

If you are really sure your bumped scale only was off 0.1, and you are really really sure you loaded 7.6 instead of 7.5, you are perfectly fine.

If you are not really really sure, you need to pull them.

rc
 
Don't ask!!!

Unfortunately each gun is a collection of "tolerances" that come together to set the maximum pressure that will be generated and contained...

Admittedly the factories that issue data keep it on the conservative side.

SO your gun might digest another 5%? 10% 7%... Or it might blow up with the listed "max load." That is why you "work up" loads starting with "minimum load" and WATCH FOR PRESSURE SIGN... Unless you are a reckless "damn fool kid" and who hasn't been there. (I survived.) Lyman complained about some tight bore foreign .243's that were blowing primers with factory ammo. Long ago.

Don't ask. Don't try. Or make sure your life insurance is in good order. Things like this give us all "black eyes." Please don't. thank you. Luck.
 
For what its worth, I think that the maximum loads are labeled as such for a reason. I don't want to find out exactly what was a bit too much over the max. If you do, cool, your body, your guns (except for the people on the firing line next to you). I choose not to.
 
I am sure it's 7.5.

But my Lee manual said on a jacketed 200 gr to never exceed 7.4 with power pistol. But I do see on the Alliant website that with the 200 gr GDHP they recommend 8.3 and on a 230 gr TMJ they recommend 8.1 grains of PP.

So do I just need to compare more reloading manuals, or?

I don't want to make my ammo hot - I am just trying to find out which load is going to be most accurate.

I made a batch of 50 with 7.0 gr of Power Pistol, and a batch of 25 with 7.4 grains. It sounds like 7.0 is on the really LOW side, which as I understand, can also cause excessive pressure.

But Lee's starting load of 7.4 is well under Alliant's recommended load of 8.3.... that's a pretty huge discrepancy by over 10%.
 
Lee has no ballistics lab, and does no testing.

All the data in the Lee book is just reprinted data from the manufactures they provided several years ago.
Some of Lee's data is "adjusted" to better conform to Lee Powder Dippers and volume measures so you don't blow yourself up!

Take it for what it's worth.

The more manuals you get, the more confusing it gets, because they are all different.

Rest assured that published data from the powder manufacture, in this case Alliant, is not going to lead you too far astray though.

on the really LOW side, which as I understand, can also cause excessive pressure.
Not so, unless it is so low you make a squib load and stick a bullet in the barrel.

There is some truth to it when loading large capacity small bore Magnum rifle calibers.

The other thing is, medium burn rate powders like Unique & Power Pistol may not burn clean at reduced load pressure.

rc
 
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So, to summarize:

A) According to Alliant, 7.5 is well UNDER the NEVER EXCEED LOAD
B) According to Lee, 7.4 IS the never exceed load

and a final question:
C) My father-in-law has one of those automatic powder measures that you just flick it and it dispenses the same amount of powder everytime. It's much quicker than weighing each charge on a scale....

I am trying to stay on a budget (for now), and this ammo is JUST range ammo. For defense/hunting, I am using factory ammo.

Are the Lee Dippers safe/accurate enough just to make a mass amount of ball ammo for the range? Instead of spending a lot of $$$ on a measure, I would rather just get one of the lee dippers calibrated at .7cc as most of Lee's 45 loads call for .7ccs of powder.

My number one priority reloading is safety and I'm still really new to it. According to Lee's manual, the dippers are perfectly safe and fine (although according to my scale they are not consistent). So are the Lee dippers fine for mass loading range ammo, or should I wait to get more high-end equipment?

Note: Time is not an issue right now as I am doing re-loading as a hobby (for enjoyment). Cost is an issue right now.
 
I usually compare a lot of manuals and give the most weight to the data published by the bullet manufacturers. That data just seems to work best for me. I do consider the type of guns they use in the testing as well. As Lee dosen't test, I usually don't consider thier data. When it comes to developing loads I start low enough to know it is a safe load and work up. Frequently, the most accurate load isn't the fastest.

As far as using more expensive equipment, I think you are fine with what you've got as long as long as you weigh each load. I have found the Lee dippers to vary quite a bit as well. I have a Lee single stage press and a powder measure that I use most of the time and, depending on the size of the batch I will weigh between 50% and 100% of the loads, trusting the measure to get within .1 gr of what I am trying to load. I take great pleasure knowing each round I load is done with care, precision, and love.

Have fun and be safe.
 
Dippers are like Diapers

Even at moderate target loads, the object is (or should be) to produce ammo of better quality than you can buy, so that you can improve as a shooter. Dippers have their place when you're starting out, or simply strapped for cash. But as you've pointed out yourself, they allow too much variation.

IMHO, if you're picky enough of a reloader to have already found out about dipper variation, then it's time for you to move on. Really, really accurate powder measures have been made since the 60's and it's hard to wear them out. That means there are tons of good used ones out there for sale.

For instance, I was in a pawn shop last weekend that had a lovely Lyman #55 powder dispenser on the shelf. I picked it up and looked at it and saw that it was marked $20. As I was putting it back the owner said, "I'll make you a deal on that." I could probably have walked out of there with the Lyman product for $10, but I need a 4th powder hopper like a hole in the head.

So, to me at least, when the equipment is readily available to shrink your shot groups by 50% for under $25, why would you continue to bother with dippers?
 
One mans max load is anothers starting point ...

ANY reloader has to understand what's going on, and how to read the results. Manuals are just references, but the only thing that matters is the results in your gun. No, a .1 grain difference isn't going to matter in any load. If 7.4gr shoots fine, so will 7.5. but the real question is how can you make the determination on your own that things are fine?

If you're going to push the limits ever, get a chrono. Reading your brass can tell you important things, but you need to verify that with solid data as well.

If you're not going to get a chrono, then always start low and ladder your loads up. That way you'll start seeing changes in the brass instead of having nothing to compare with.

Metering your powder accurately is obviously the most important part of being safe. Personally I wouldn't trust those dippers, there are many inexpensive stand along powder measures that are faster and more accurate. Then after you've made the ammo, confirming the results are critical to being safe also. $60 for a RCBS Uniflow and $90 for a chrono would be money well spent, good peace of mind.
 
I never even thought of going to pawn shops to look for reloading equipment.

I think I might go with a set of dippers or my father-in-laws powder measure (when I am over there) FOR NOW, but as soon as a sweet deal pops up I will get it from a pawn shop or ebay.
 
I use a Lee Pro Auto-Disk Power Measure when loading handgun ammo. I've found it to be more accurate with some powders than others. Ball powders are usually the most consistent drops. That said, even when they are off a little it's usually very little which isn't a problem unless you are bumping up against the Max charge.

While dippers are handy I think you will be happier with a powder measure of some sorts. The Lee Pro Auto-Disk Powder Measure is inexpensive and it works. You can get it much cheaper online than the list price on the Lee site. ($52.95) Kempf Gun Shop online has it for $37.95. It's well worht the extra money for the Pro model over the non-Pro model. (usually $12 more)

The Lee micro-disk and adjustable charge bar come in very handy too. Look Here You might need a "riser" too depending upon your setup.
 
There is absolutely no difference in using the lee auto disk and lee dippers. For that matter most any powder measure and dippers. Any measure that works off a calibrated cavity is no different than a dipper. It just matters how accurate you are. If you follow the instructions and pay attention to how to do it (there is a great video on youtube) about wiping across the top with a card, etc. you will find they are pretty repeatable. A powder measure is quicker, but in my opinion is one more thing you have to keep a close eye on. I wouldnt use one until I was very comfortable reloading.
 
Using the lee dippers, is it possible to have a squib load? I just notice they are lighter on the scale than the grain amount that Lee calls for in the Lee manual.

I know the answer is probably no but my #1 priority is being safe - not too hot and not too cold.
 
SHusky57,
That's the rub right there... The Lee charts (and most other charts) are rarely if even right on the money. They are for the most part a guide to getting close to correct. You will always need to double check, triple check and check again when it comes to charge weights. NEVER trust dippers or auto dispensers when setting up charge weights. Once you get everything set up you are alright for the most part. (I still check about every 10/15 throws) Also, all powders have different densities so a dipper full of this powder won't weigh the same as a dipper full of that powder. Sorry, but that's just the way it is.
 
"My father-in-law has one of those automatic powder measures that you just flick it and it dispenses the same amount of powder everytime. It's much quicker than weighing each charge on a scale...."

Unless you are really lousy at dropping charges, there is rarely any reason to weigh charges for a handgun. Not much of a reason to do so with rifles but .... maybe, sometimes.

And there is never a valid reason to "hot-rod" a handgun, the difference down range is trivial and it will beat up your weapon in the effort. Really not worth it.
 
there is rarely any reason to weigh charges for a handgun.

I weigh every .380 ACP I load.

A little goes a long way in that one and the .32 ACP & .25 ACP.

I'd say thats a good enough reason to weigh them all for me.

rc
 
"...there is rarely any reason to weigh charges for a handgun."

Can't think of a better way to cause a beginner to blow up his gun...Good advice...:rolleyes:
 
Weigh Your Loads

The gentleman that loaded and shot these started at max load and left the range with what was left of the 300 Win Mag brass stuck in his chamber. Could have been a lot worse.

You'll see where the brass was bulging near the belt of the casing as well as the inside of the head of the piece of brass from the inside here.

100_0062.jpg

Separated head of the brass here. CHECK YOUR LOADS!

100_0060.jpg
 
The problem with dippers (and actually, any powder measure that isn't a scale) is you are trying to take a substance that needs to be measured by avoirdupois (actual weight) and measuring it by volume instead. Now, it is possible to convert a volume to equate to a certain weight. This is what Lee does with the VMI tables, assigns a certain number which is the way to convert actual grains to the CC of the dipper or measure cavity.

The problems arise when you think about the fact that powder changes its weight based on humidity or formulation changes lot-to-lot. A batch of powder made two years ago is certainly going to be different than a batch made today, and a humid day makes them different again.

To cover their @sses from liability and keep us from blowing things up, they "fudge" the tables on the worst-case-scenario side. If you get the most dense lot imaginable of a certain powder, the Dipper Size "X" cc's will not throw any more than Y grains based on the VMI chart.

So in most cases, dipper size "X" will actually be less than you want in the real world. However, if you do your part to make each dip of powder consistent and level off each charge the same way, they will throw very close to identical each time. What you need to do it practice and then measure what you are actually throwing, and use the size dipper that gives you what you want consistently. It might be the "X" cc dipper, it might be the one next to that "X" cc dipper.

The same goes for powder measures. The Lee Autodisc measures are very repeatable and easy to use but you are stuck with the cavities they provide. You need to find the one that matches up the best to what you want, regardless of the VMI table and what the Lee load data says.


If it is a choice between Lee's "We don't make our own data, but copy it from other sources" data (which they pick the LOWEST charges that fit the criteria, to prevent people from blowing stuff up) and the powder maker's data (Who uses actual test barrels and wants really good info available to reloaders) I would always take the powder makers' data.

That's not knocking Lee- they have a vested interest to provide as close to idiot-proof simple and cheap gear as possible and it works great for what it is.

Another thing is that from what you said earlier, Lee's data was for a jacketed 200-grain whereas the powder maker's data was specifically for a Speer Gold Dot Hollow Point. Different bullets have different bearing surfaces. Some will push through the barrel easier than others. That's why the specific bullet is mentioned to duplicate that load. Hodgdon, for example, tests a variety of the same style & size of bullet, and publishes the MOST restrictive load. That way, you are never exceeding that load with any other similar size and style bullet. So there's a built-in safety margin. What Lee does is find the most restrictive load data they can and then round it down to the dipper that will serve using their VMI table which already has a safety margin built in to compensate for density changes in the powder volume. You now have at least 3 safety margins stacking up to drop your charge down from nominal.

That's not necessarily a bad thing especially for a novice reloader, that way nobody blows something up.
 
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The same goes for powder measures. The Lee Autodisc measures are very repeatable and easy to use but you are stuck with the cavities they provide. You need to find the one that matches up the best to what you want, regardless of the VMI table and what the Lee load data says.

That is why lee sells an adjustable charge bar. I rarely use mine, as when I load practice rounds whatever cavity is closest is good enough.
 
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