New .40 S&W loader. (I think I'm prepared)

Shivahasagun said:
Beretta PX4 full size ... I couldn't find any data for my 180 gr lead bullets and powders I have (CFE-P, HP38, Titegroup, 700X) ... just reloading practice ammo here.

Can someone remind me how to start with "copper plated" data for use with coated lead? I'm thinking 4.2 gr 700X and 4.4 gr HP38.
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I have used lead load data for plated/coated bullets with good results. And if you can't find load data for same bullet weight, you can always reference load data for slightly heavier bullets.

40S&W 180 gr TCFP/FN bullets have long bullet base and produce good neck tension to produce accuracy (consistent chamber pressure build) even when using longer than SAAMI max OAL of 1.135" (Many match shooters will use longer 1.180"+ OAL depending on the barrel. But most 165/180 gr FP/FN profile bullets will reliably feed with shorter OAL of 1.125"-1.135"). For MBC 180 gr TCFP, testing incrementally longer OALs from 1.135" to 1.143" produced smaller groups with longer 1.142" OAL (M&P40/Glock 22/Lone Wolf barrels produced 1.149" max OAL with 1.145" longest working OAL due to magazine restriction) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/#post-9363753

In general, for mild target/practice loads with lower velocities, faster burning than W231/HP-38 powders tend to bump/deform the lead bullet base better to seal/obturate with the barrel to produce greater accuracy. So from powder choices, I recommend you start with W231/HP-38 (Yes, they are same exact powder).

For USPSA match/practice loads using Montana Gold 155/165/180 gr FMJ/JHP and Berry's 165/180 gr plated bullets, I referenced 1999 Winchester load data for W231/WSF minor/major power factor loads (I tested Bullseye/Clays/WST/Titegroup/W231/Universal/WSF/HS-6) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...lead-bullet-data-needed.874760/#post-11635963
  • 40S&W 170 gr Lead W231 (No OAL) Start 4.0 gr (850 fps) - Max 5.2 gr (1030 fps)
  • 40S&W 200 gr Lead W231 (No OAL) Start 3.0 gr (700 fps) - Max 4.0 gr (850 fps)
Hodgdon plated load data - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol
  • 40S&W 180 gr Berry's FP W231/HP-38 COL 1.125" Start 4.4 gr (872 fps) - Max 5.1 gr (984 fps) 33,500 PSI
While Guns & Ammo article tested 40S&W USPSA minor power factor loads for 180 gr Lead bullet using W231 down to 3.5 gr, I have found 180 gr Lead TCFP with 3.9-4.3 gr of W231/HP-38 produced lighter, 9mm-like recoil loads that are good for practice and training for Glock 22/23/27 using Lone Wolf 40S&W barrels. (Titegroup and 700-X will work also but will produce more snappy recoil and why I suggested you start with HP-38. Slower burning CFE Pistol will optimize accuracy at high-to-near max load data but you are looking for lighter practice load)

Full size Beretta PX4 may reliably cycle the slide and extract/eject spent cases and still produce acceptable accuracy with lighter powder charges. So you may consider going below 4.4 gr of W231/HP-38 and test 4.3 and 4.2 gr as start charges and see if you get reliable slide cycling before working up higher powder charges while watching accuracy trend towards 5.0 gr as suggested by @Walkalong.
 
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When I start cranking them out I'll use HP38.

While playing with 700X and dippers I'll check how much I can heap on the .5cc dipper consistently and see if that's enough to cycle the gun. I'm guessing it will be around 3.9-4.0 gr.
 
Shivahasagun said:
When I start cranking them out I'll use HP38.

While playing with 700X and dippers I'll check how much I can heap on the .5cc dipper consistently and see if that's enough to cycle the gun. I'm guessing it will be around 3.9-4.0 gr.
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Nah. I could only heap about 3.7 gr of 700x on the dipper. I had to add and just made 10 rds of 4.2 gr 700x.

I used a .7 cc dipper (and threw about 80% full onto the scale) for the HP38 and often got at, or just under what I wanted, which I weighed to get 4.5 grs. made 15 of those.

But I had a problem. I had 3 cases split the length of the bullet! (I was able to reuse the bullets and primers)

All happened to be Win, but most of these cases are Win. with some Speer and FC among them. What can I do to help prevent this? I try not to bell the case mouth much already.

I'm not positive they weren't split before I loaded them, but I didn't find others when I looked so, I think they split when I load the .401 bullet.

I've also noticed some of these cases are very easy to seat a primer into. As in perhaps they shouldn't be loaded again. Remember these are nickel-plated cases. (sold cleaned, mostly deprimed, and as always, "once fired".

Doing the math, If I can reload these cases after I fire them it's $210 per 1k. (I'm using the cost of primers I already have at todays replacement cost, as well as bullets and powder)

Buying more of these fired cases and me loading them is $255 per 1k, and buying new, loaded brass-cased FMJ PMC is $365 to my door.

Saving $155 per 1k reloading them is worth it. Saving $110...perhaps not worth my time and aggravation if I'm going to have so many split cases on the final stage of loading.
 
I reload a lot of range brass and in .40, mostly nickel plated since the LEs used to shoot it and leave it on the ground. I‘ve used older RCBS sizers and newer Dillon, use a double alpha M style expander and haven’t had any split case issues. At least yet.
The recent thread on “how to measure primer depth” drew a spotlight on primer seating depth - perhaps the “how loose is too loose for a primer” thread will blossom? I’ve found seating primers in nickel a bit easier, perhaps due to the lubricity. As long as they don’t fall out by themselves, before or after firing, I call it good.
 
lordpaxman said:
The recent thread on “how to measure primer depth” drew a spotlight on primer seating depth - perhaps the “how loose is too loose for a primer” thread will blossom?
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When questions arose by how much "Metric" primers were larger than "standard" domestic brand primers, I considered doing a myth busting thread and started measuring standard and Metric SP/SR primers (CCI, Winchester, Fiocchi, S&B, Magtech, PMC, Tula).

While "Metric" SP primers were slightly larger (.175" vs "around" .1745"), "Metric" SR primers (Fiocchi/S&B/Tula) were comparable in size to CCI SR and some very slightly smaller.

lordpaxman said:
I’ve found seating primers in nickel a bit easier, perhaps due to the lubricity. As long as they don’t fall out by themselves, before or after firing, I call it good.
Click to expand...
We have been saying for years on THR that one benefit of slightly larger sized "Metric" primers is extending the life of brass with loose primer pockets. :)
 
I've been loading 40s&w for a while; I also load on a LCT and love how easy it is to change calibers. I've been loading the 165gr rnfp over both Blue Dot (big flash) and HP38 for a lighter load. Look into the Lee bulge buster (currently around $20), it uses the FCD and full length sizes your "once fired" brass by passing them through the die removing any bulges, also look into one of the stepped expanders, they make it easier to place the bullet in the case. I like a sewing machine light (less than $15 for 2 at Amazon) to light up the LCT so you can see if (when) there are any mistakes. I get many reloads on 40S&W cases and the most failures are the mouth splitting, I think caused by over expanding the mouth when I started and before getting a stepped expander. You can create your own custom dipper using a pistol case and some solid copper wire, trim the case to create what you need, and solder the wire in the rim.
 
Shivahasagun said:
Doing the math, If I can reload these cases after I fire them it's $210 per 1k. (I'm using the cost of primers I already have at todays replacement cost, as well as bullets and powder)

Buying more of these fired cases and me loading them is $255 per 1k, and buying new, loaded brass-cased FMJ PMC is $365 to my door.
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I was checking ammo prices again, found 1K rds of PMC for $303 to my door, and quickly ordered it.

This is as cheap as ammo will be this year. It's an election year.

When I've fired this ammo, the panic arrives, and the same ammo I just bought is $400-$500 or more I won't be a buyer. I'll be reloading it for @$210-$250 using components I already have and shooting all I want while the rest of the range is silent or nearly so.
 
Shivahasagun said:
I was checking ammo prices again, found 1K rds of PMC for $303 to my door, and quickly ordered it.
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My last purchase of 40S&W it was cheaper than 9mm at the time, 500rnds for $75 and 9mm was $78, bulk packed. I purchased 1000 bullets about the same time to reload that brass and am still working on them. I think when you find a good load for your pistols you will enjoy shooting your reloads more than the cheap bulk bullets you purchased, I know I do.
 
rdnktrkr said:
My last purchase of 40S&W it was cheaper than 9mm at the time, 500rnds for $75 and 9mm was $78, bulk packed. I purchased 1000 bullets about the same time to reload that brass and am still working on them. I think when you find a good load for your pistols you will enjoy shooting your reloads more than the cheap bulk bullets you purchased, I know I do.
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500 rds for @$75?

Sure, things were better in 1995!
 
I can't imagine paying for 40 S&W brass, it's still pretty plentiful at our local range. Like LiveLife, I still have 5 gallon buckets of the stuff, I stopped at my friends place a couple of weeks ago to chronograph a load, and noticed his 30 gal garbage can full of 40 had split. He was cussing that he needed to go buy some 5 gallon buckets!
 
Shivahasagun said:
Sure, things were better in 1995!
Click to expand...

When our local LE went from 40S&W to 9mm not only were their guns reasonable but their practice ammo was also, not 30yrs closer to 10
When our State Patrol when away from the 45GAP, our LGS offered a Glock, case, 3 mags and 300rnds for $300. I went to the range recently around 9AM and picked up a lot more brass than I shot, both 9mm and 40S&W, very few 45ACP, and only 3, 380.
 
I tested my .40 loads recently. Mixed results.

Take note that 180 gr FN PMC, (50 rds) Federal 155 gr FN, (About 400 rds through this gun now), a couple hundred 180 gr Freedom Munition reloads, and 165 gr HST (100 or so) have all been 100%.

Full size Beretta PX4. MBC 180 gr coated FN .401, mixed brass, OAL 1.122-1.13," CCI SP, 4.2 gr 700X.

Accurate. I ran 6 shots over the ProChrono:

AVG 953 fps
ES 17
SD 5

Great! Too bad the gun didn't like them. multiple failures to feed. If I held the gun very firm I got fewer malfunctions.
I have a 9x19 PX4, too, and have found that lightly loaded ammo (like 3.0 gr Titegroup 147 gr) or Freedom Munitions 147 gr reloads, do not cycle.

Are these too light or is it the bullet shape or something else? I'm not sure. Note: Freedom Munition and PMC 180 gr ammo all runs 905-935 fps and worked fine.

Now, for the HP38. Same specs as above, except OAL was in the 1.123 - 1.125 range, and of course the powder. 4.5 gr of HP38.

Accurate. I ran 8 shots over the ProChrono:

AVG 931 fps
ES 28
SD 9

Great numbers again! But as before, I had just as many failures to feed. Also as above, smacking the butt of the gun with my hand was always enough to chamber the round.

Good gun, but my reloads need work. When I get a chance I'll take a closer look at how my rounds are hitting the feed ramp compared to factory rounds and see if I can find the problem.
Or, perhaps my test ammo is just too weak?
 
When you do your load workup, I suggest a quick cleaning in between ladder tests. Powder burns in such a way that when the powder is in the range it’s designed to be used in it burns pretty clean, and clean means complete and consistent. Dirty gun means the load needs to keep climbing because it will be inconsistent and incomplete. The things to do are to
A. get the gun to function
B. get it to shoot fairly clean
C. work around that point until you find something that it likes.

I just realized this is an old thread. I will read and see how this worked out.
 
Shivahasagun said:
I tested my .40 loads recently. Mixed results.

Take note that 180 gr FN PMC, (50 rds) Federal 155 gr FN, (About 400 rds through this gun now), a couple hundred 180 gr Freedom Munition reloads, and 165 gr HST (100 or so) have all been 100%.

Full size Beretta PX4. MBC 180 gr coated FN .401, mixed brass, OAL 1.122-1.13," CCI SP, 4.2 gr 700X.

Accurate. I ran 6 shots over the ProChrono:

AVG 953 fps
ES 17
SD 5

Great! Too bad the gun didn't like them. multiple failures to feed. If I held the gun very firm I got fewer malfunctions.
I have a 9x19 PX4, too, and have found that lightly loaded ammo (like 3.0 gr Titegroup 147 gr) or Freedom Munitions 147 gr reloads, do not cycle.

Are these too light or is it the bullet shape or something else? I'm not sure. Note: Freedom Munition and PMC 180 gr ammo all runs 905-935 fps and worked fine.

Now, for the HP38. Same specs as above, except OAL was in the 1.123 - 1.125 range, and of course the powder. 4.5 gr of HP38.

Accurate. I ran 8 shots over the ProChrono:

AVG 931 fps
ES 28
SD 9

Great numbers again! But as before, I had just as many failures to feed. Also as above, smacking the butt of the gun with my hand was always enough to chamber the round.

Good gun, but my reloads need work. When I get a chance I'll take a closer look at how my rounds are hitting the feed ramp compared to factory rounds and see if I can find the problem.
Or, perhaps my test ammo is just too weak?
Click to expand...
If peppy loads are cycling and less peppy loads are not then it’s likely that the malfunction is a combination of slide velocity and stable grip, especially if you can muscle up and make it run right. Add a tenth of a grain in powder and it’s likely that the malfunction disappears. Could be that the recoil spring is heavier than necessary too but unlikely.

Take note of my comment above about how dirty it leaves the gun too. Light loads can be a finicky issue so sometimes it takes more than just bumping charges until the gun barely runs. When in the marginal pressure range there are going to be a much higher degree of variation based upon temperature and case fill (because not all headstamps are exactly the same capacity, but generally very close unless it’s the dreaded stepped 9mm brass).

And sometimes a gun just doesn’t like a certain bullet for some reason. Next time you order bullets try something more resembling to what you find works in your gun with factory ammo.
 
Shivahasagun said:
I tested my .40 loads recently. Mixed results.

Take note that 180 gr FN PMC, (50 rds) Federal 155 gr FN, (About 400 rds through this gun now), a couple hundred 180 gr Freedom Munition reloads, and 165 gr HST (100 or so) have all been 100%.

Full size Beretta PX4. MBC 180 gr coated FN .401, mixed brass, OAL 1.122-1.13," CCI SP, 4.2 gr 700X.

Accurate. I ran 6 shots over the ProChrono:

AVG 953 fps
ES 17
SD 5

Great! Too bad the gun didn't like them. multiple failures to feed. If I held the gun very firm I got fewer malfunctions.
I have a 9x19 PX4, too, and have found that lightly loaded ammo (like 3.0 gr Titegroup 147 gr) or Freedom Munitions 147 gr reloads, do not cycle.

Are these too light or is it the bullet shape or something else? I'm not sure. Note: Freedom Munition and PMC 180 gr ammo all runs 905-935 fps and worked fine.

Now, for the HP38. Same specs as above, except OAL was in the 1.123 - 1.125 range, and of course the powder. 4.5 gr of HP38.

Accurate. I ran 8 shots over the ProChrono:

AVG 931 fps
ES 28
SD 9

Great numbers again! But as before, I had just as many failures to feed. Also as above, smacking the butt of the gun with my hand was always enough to chamber the round.

Good gun, but my reloads need work. When I get a chance I'll take a closer look at how my rounds are hitting the feed ramp compared to factory rounds and see if I can find the problem.
Or, perhaps my test ammo is just too weak?
Click to expand...
Your COAL may be long. When you did the plunk test did you give the bullet a spin to make sure it wasn’t in the lands?
 
Shivahasagun said:
AVG 953 fps
ES 17
SD 5

Great! Too bad the gun didn't like them. multiple failures to feed. If I held the gun very firm I got fewer malfunctions.
Click to expand...
With that velocity and an 180gr bullet, there shouldn't be any problems cycling.

Make sure you don't limp wrist, and do the plunk and setback test. With the setback test you should get a feel if there is a problem with the cycling since you manually cycling it through from the magazine.
 
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Shivahasagun said:
  • MBC 180 gr coated FN ... OAL 1.122-1.13," ... 4.2 gr 700X
  • HP38 ... OAL was in the 1.123 - 1.125 range ... 4.5 gr of HP38

    failures to feed. Also as above, smacking the butt of the gun with my hand was always enough to chamber the round.
Click to expand...
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Your COAL may be long. When you did the plunk test did you give the bullet a spin to make sure it wasn’t in the lands?
Click to expand...
No, OAL may be too short.

Determine the Max OAL using the barrel and then determine the Max Working OAL by feeding dummy rounds (no powder, no primer) from the magazine without riding the slide. Your Final Working OAL may be shorter to work reliably with the magazine.

For MBC 180 gr TCFP, Max OAL was 1.149" for M&P40/Glock 22/Lone Wolf barrels and Max Working OAL was 1.145" due to magazine limiting reliability of feeding and Final Working OAL was 1.142" - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...think-im-prepared.927617/page-3#post-12849879

And yes, shorter SAAMI max of 1.135" to 1.142" were range tested and longer 1.142" produced smaller groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-for-lead-plated-bullets.743416/#post-9363753

index.php
 
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Shivahasagun said:
Good gun, but my reloads need work. When I get a chance I'll take a closer look at how my rounds are hitting the feed ramp compared to factory rounds and see if I can find the problem.
Or, perhaps my test ammo is just too weak?
Click to expand...
Assuming you already did a plunk test and determine Max COL, FTFs can be a number of things but if factory ammo isn’t a problem then:
-Did you case gauge or test in the chamber to make sure there was enough crimp to remove any bell or flare? A small amount of case mouth can get caught up easily.
-Is the bullet shape roughly the same as factory? Depending on where it first strikes when chambering, you may need to alter COL to approximate factory loads.
-Is it magazine dependent? Your mag may not be holding the rounds the same, and can alter angles when the slide strips one. You can/should do a slow motion rack and slide forward to observe how the rounds are being captured And chambered.

You’re rocking a 172 PF with that bullet and V so I’d doubt your loads are weak.
 
Alright I figured out two things. Measured a bunch of rounds, used my barrel as a guide, and used the gun to check cycling using the slide release.

1. I didn't start my first test cartridge long enough. I found a COAL of 1.1500 STILL fit the chamber without contacting the rifling leads! However, this length must have been near the limit for the magazine. I think I felt some dragging, but it still fed this round from 5 down in the mag. The longest SAAMI length for .40 S&W is supposed to be 1.135 in.

2. And that's because the bullet Ogive (Summit City Bullets 180 gr) is too "small". This is THE problem. All my factory ammo ranging from 1.123 to 1.13 had wider / less aggressive / less steep Ogives that kept the cartridge from getting to too steep of angle when the bullet contacted the top of the chamber wall. From 1.122 to 1.1500 COAL the narrower Ogive didn't let the bullet contact the top of the chamber early during feeding to change the cartridge angle from nose-up to in-line with the barrel.

I can't fix that. My 960 or so bullets just aren't going to work in this gun. One of the reasons I chose this bullet is because the Ogive / Meplat did look small and I thought that would help feeding in this non-tilt barrel gun design. Nope.

But it's going to be okay! Becoming a fan of .40 S&W again I've got a new S&W M&P 2.0 .40 compact on the way and if it's anything like my 2.0 .45 acp it will eat everything.

For the time being the PX4 gets factory ammo only. I'll choose a different bullet shape next time I decide to buy bullets to make reloads for it.
 
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