New Ammo For U.s. Military

[Big Boomer]

Although I am not an expert on this...and have not read the entire post, my understanding on using fmj ammunition is because:

1. FMJ penetrates walls and light armor better, better to shoot through the barrier or walls of a house than have to enter it to kill the combatants inside. In addition at long ranges bullet effectiveness greatly diminishes, so at a few hundred yards shooting through vehicles and walls greatly effects their performance.

2. FMJ feeds better in harsh conditions.

4. The act of "wounding" the enemy drains far more resources than killing the enemy, therefore slowing troop movements and decreasing moral.

5. I have read that many snipers actually use exposed lead tips, or in some cases hollowpoints for kills, as their purpose in most cases is not to wound but to kill.

 

[Ivy Mike]

While I understand that we follow the Hague convention even though we didn't sign it, what I don't understand is why people want to bother with expanding ammo in a war zone.

The way I understand wound ballistics, penetration is king. While a JHP might produce a nastier wound, the better chance of greater penetration would seem to be more important. Seems like FMJ would be preferred regardless.

 

[golden]

Penetration Is Overrated

The use of ball ammo or FMJ has to do with when semi-auto pistols first came into existence. At the turn of the last century, there was only one kind of pistol ammo, lead.
Full Metal Jacket had to be developed to allow reliable functioning in early semi-auto pistols. Lead ammo would cause to much fouling and lead buildup in the barrel.

When the HAGUE conventions went into effect, the same type of ammo choices existed. The issue of DUM DUM ammo (named for the English base it was being developed at) which was really designed to be more effective at stopping the enemy was turned into an argument against inflicting suffering.

As a result, the military is saddled with pistol ammo that penetrates, but may not incapacitate the enemy. It has been argued that FMJ ammo CAUSES MORE SUFFERING BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO SHOOT A PERSON MORE OFTEN TO MAKE IT WORK.

Police and Federal agency experience has shown that penetration is not nearly as important as adequate expansion with about 12 inch penetration.

As it stands, standard ball or FMJ pistol ammo will not penetrate body armor, light armored vehicles or exterior walls of buildings, but may overpenetrate an unprotected human body causing far less damage than a hollowpoint or expanding FMJ ammo.

Jim

 

[MASTEROFMALICE]

It has been argued that FMJ ammo CAUSES MORE SUFFERING BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO SHOOT A PERSON MORE OFTEN TO MAKE IT WORK.

Hence the reason many states don't allow FMJ ammo for hunting.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

If they aren't supposed to use ammo that causes unnecessary suffering, then expanding ammo should be deemed fine to use because it promotes quicker death, hence alleviating unnecessary suffering.

 

[Nomad101bc]

Hence the reason many states don't allow FMJ ammo for hunting.

Excellent point!

 

[Samuel Adams]

This may or may not be pertinent but I work on an Army Post and deal with the Military Police regularly. They still carry FMJ ammo in their M9s but the CID agents that visit my place of employment all carry hollow points in their P228s of one kind or another.

 

[USMCDK]

I have seen, but not in the military, a hollow point round made to penetrate armory. Instead of just hollowed out, they hollow it out with a point inside the hole, so when the round hits it pierces the armor and expands cause one hell of a lot of damage to the victim/bad guy, hopefully.

Also you can just break open a mercury thermometer and put that in your hollow point that works too. not sure how but it does. :Smiles:

 

[Geronimo45]

Oh yeah, the Us Military has not been fielding Mines in an offensive role.
These weapons have been used strictly for the purpose of defense.

Is this a recent change? FM 23-23 mentions using them in an offensive role (mainly for ambushes).
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/23-23/CH4.htm

 

[Blakenzy]

Seeing as the US has not signed any treaty forbidding use of hollow points(according to previous posters), I don't think that the issue has anything to do with politics, morals or public view. The US has used flamethrowers, napalm, white phosphorous explosives, claymores, all of which are far more "cruel" than what any JHP could ever hope to be.

I think the issue is that the High Command just doesn't care very much about terminal performance at ranges involving individual self defense , and are generally not concerned about ballistics from a civilian CCW or LEO perspective, where every individual shot counts, to save individual lives.

In the civilian/LEO world, we place and count rounds individually, as our objective is to save our individual lives. So, HPs have a palpable effect. In the GI world, rounds are expected to be placed in volume and counted by the thousands, to kill people and break their stuff(vehicles and other material targets). HPs probably offer little advantage in this role. I think that the Army assumes that most of the time you are shooting at people who are behind some sort of cover, which gives the advantage to FMJ. Sure if I, the individual soldier, had to shoot someone face to face I would like a HP, but the Army doesn't really worry about such individual face to face situations.

In the end FMJ is probably more cost effective to mass produce and more practical from a logistical point of view. Since logistics is what usually dictates what rank and file soldiers will field in battle, whatever is more easy for the Army to procure is usually what they will be stuck with.

Hollow points may, and I say again may give an edge at the individual, personal level, but as we all know the Army has nothing to do with individuals, so they just don't bother.

 

[BsChoy]

The hollowpoint bullet would be a better option for stopping the insurrgent who wants to blow himself up before he dies....also helps stop guys from getting killed by a guy they hit and THOUGHT they just killed after his fmj's went through him

 

[MarcusWendt]

I'm positive I was told by my nephew(west coast SEAL)they were using Remmington 185gr JHP's +P in the H&K tactical pistol. Is that correct?

I just had the pleasure of speaking with a gentleman who represents the US Navy in Shooting completions and helps/ed train Specwar folks in the use of handguns. I met him at a USPSA local match.

A number of internet myths were torn to shreds.

The SEALs are only using Sig P226s shooting 124gr +P. He did say there were a few guys who, for whatever reason, still used M9s. No HKs, no 1911s. He further stated that the Specwar crowd was happy with their Sigs and not in an hurry t move to a .45 as we always seem to read/hear. We asked him if they had problems with Sigs and slide cracks, he said it had been a problem in the 80's, but not anymore.

He told us they weren't and wouldn't be using HKs for handguns as they are a pain to maintain. He said HK takes forever to send replacement parts. He said it's been a big problem when trying to service the MP5s.

Very nice guy and one hell of a fast shooter.

 

[USMCDK]

It's said that the company I hold dear would take a long time to send replacement parts to our soldiers. I haven't had a problem with the company, but that doesn't mean there isn't problems out there with them.

 

[Dobe]

I always thought there was something curious about that -- it's legal, to, say, shoot a terrorist trying to get access to Ft Bragg with JHP ammo, but illegal to shoot the same guy with the same bullet if he's trying to gain access to BIAP or the Green Zone.

Such is politics; sucks as politics.

 

[NG VI]

Rather than EFMJ or the like, which clearly escalates things beyond the current agreed standard, I'd say a better approach would be to work on rounds that fragment better like Mk 262 if we're looking for enhanced lethality.

Horsesoldier, isn't the MK 262 a 77 grain Sierra JHP?

 

[rcmodel]

but the CID agents that visit my place of employment all carry hollow points in their P228s of one kind or another.

The military is allowed to use JHP ammo in the Continental United States (CONUS) theater of operations.

In other words, it's O.K. to shoot U.S. Troops & civilians with JHP inside the United States.

But you can't shoot enemy troops with JHP outside the United States.

Makes perfect sense to me!

rcmodel

 

[DougDubya]

rcmodel - that's because Americans are bigger and tougher than puny little Europeans and Arabs.

9mm ball is enough for their fragile forms, while an American opponent requires a minimum of .45 ACP hollowpoints.

[/irony]

 

[RustyShackelford]

use of loads in US military conflicts/ammo

As a US Army veteran(MP), I never used anything other than standard FMJ 124gr 9mmNATO and 230gr FMJ .45acp for duty use. Things may have changed but I never heard any other loads being used by combat troops.
I do recall reading a few of Richard Marcinko's novels/books where he states the US Navy SEALs had HK USP .45acp pistols loaded with Magsafe rounds, . Use of JHP or special purpose loads by spec ops seems understandable but the costs/logistics of buying different 9mm/5.56mm/etc ammo would seem strange for large military units.
Rusty S

 

[Mokiloki]

ok i havent read every post but this is good. one of my besties is on his 4 tour in afgan, for every comapny the roe is different depending upon where you are. he was stationed at a base in iraq in 2005 and there roe was ****ed. he told me that on patrols if anyone friend there gun, and came back with out full mags you have to fill out paperwork like 15 pages long, describing each shot. THIS IS BS to me, ya tere are some guys that are trigger happy and cant shoot ****, sucks but everyone isnt good, but to get back from getting shot at and have to fill out paper work is BULL. i mean support or troops, you dont have to support the war but dont forgert about our troops. im 22 and fully understand the war thing, but dont understand how politics in USA messes every thing up!

 

[Mokiloki]

not roe, sorry thats my bad. mistake

 

[X_m1tanker]

google search it, every time the US goes into a major conflict the national debt doubles. Nice... humane bullets? When I was in the tanks, a threat was a threat, we were trained to shoot our ammo. Boots on the ground will tell you they want to shoot to kill, frangible or not, troops want the most effective round at their disposal. Steel on target. Laze and Blaze. Armchair warriors can debate the humanities all day long...till it's their ars in the sling

 

[TG13]

i think the real reason for ball rounds being used, is weapon reliability..

ball rounds feed.. depending on the HP, it may or may not feed in all pistols regardless of make..

if you have 10,000 M9s, not all of those M9s will feed a given HP round.. regardless of your specific experience with M9s and various HP rounds you may have..

if there is a chance that you will have failures with a HP in an issued pistol, HPs will not be issued to prevent those failures..

this is why i think ball rounds are issued.. it's not penetration, or "stopping" an opponent.. or about HP expansion.. or the Hauge Convention.. or humane killing..

it's all about if the weapon functions, or not, in battlefield conditions..

 

[RustyShackelford]

cost/military weapons

The members here must also remember the standard US military(NOT spec-ops which, by federal law/DoD regs has a seperate budget/procurement system) must give contracts to the lowest bidder. FMJ are cheaper to produce in large numbers than other bullet designs. FMJ rounds also feed better and are waterproof. Things our US military needs in combat.
As I posted before, some JHPs/EFMJ/spec ops loads may be used but not by the standard forces in the USMC/Army/Navy/USAF.

Rusty

 

[Eightball]

So......is there any grain of truth to this EFMJ business, like a procurement form or something? I'm sorry, but I don't take Ayoob's word as "law" on the subject.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Horsesoldier, isn't the MK 262 a 77 grain Sierra JHP?

Mk 262 is an open-tip match (OTM) round, with a pin-hole in the nose of the bullet from the construction process. It's not a JHP round, and not designed to expand on penetration. It breaks up and fragments rapidly partly due to the OTM format, but the construction of the round is for enhanced accuracy, not enhanced expansion or lethality. (The extra lethality is a nice plus, to be sure . . .)