I like the looks of the Bisley model! Used its a couple hundred more than the regular model new, but I just like the looks better.The New Model Blackhawk you mentioned should be fine for those loads. There's no real need to pay for a fancier model. Mine is just the standard version, and I've been very pleased with it. The fit and finish are nice. Good trigger and sights. Way more accurate than I am. Been shooting it for over ten years, and it still looks and shoots like it's barely broken in.
New Model Ruger Black Hawk
- Thread starter Barmcd
- Start date
Bazoo
Member
Bullseye is a poor choice for pushing the limits. Pressure increases are not commensurate to increases in velocity. Medium/slow powders will give better results all the way around. While I DO think you should get a Blackhawk, I would still consider trying some other, more appropriate powders (for your intended application) in your Uberti Cattleman.
.007". Uberti tech support says its within tolerance. They have a pretty good tech support hot-line. They answer the phone quickly and you can get answers to your questions. They offered to check the gun out for me. I have to pay shipping to them, they cover the cost of repairs and shipping back.
35 Whelen
Member
I don't know of any powders that are good for pushing the limits.
Like any and all powders, Bullseye is good within its limits.
35W
35 Whelen
Member
unspellable
Member
The bolt notch creating a weak spot in the cylinder is an urban myth, The weakest link is actually the web between chambers. You will note the Ruger cylinder above is thicker in the web. Very often in a catastrophic blowout one of the webs fails first and the recovered piece will have the outer wall of the chamber in question intact and be fractured in both webs and both adjacent chamber walls. Hatcher in his book recalls visiting Colt and being shown a revolver with the bolt notch extended all the way through the chamber wall and the entire length of the cylinder and then fired with out failure. I've seen a similar experiment done in more recent times with S&W 357. If the bolt notch really weakened the cylinder more revolvers would have them offset. The formula for hoop strength does not apply here.Howdy
At the top of this photo is an older Ruger Three Screw Flat Top 44 Magnum. Note the distinctive three screws in the frame. These were made before Ruger began installing transfer bars inside. No, Ruger never recalled the Three Screw Models, but they will install a transfer bar into the older models, which I DO NOT recommend. Learn to use it properly, only load it with five rounds and never lower the hammer on a live round.
At the bottom of the photo is a "New Model' Ruger Blackhawk chambered for 45 Colt. I also have an auxiliary cylinder for this revolver chambered for 45 ACP, but that is beside the point. Notice there are two pins in the frame, rather than the older Three Screws.
Lets look at the guts of the old Three Screw for a moment. There is no transfer bar anywhere, and although it uses coil springs instead of leaf type springs, the revolver works just like a Colt Single Action Army.
Here is a close up or the lockwork parts of the Three Screw. Notice the hammer has two separate cocking notches. The so called "safety cock" notch at the top, half cock in the middle, and full cock at the bottom. Again, never trust a revolver like this with a live round under the hammer, only load five, and lower the hammer on an empty chamber. And never trust the "Safety Cock" notch. Just like a Colt, If the hammer spur is struck forcefully enough the "Safety Cock" notch can break off, or the tip of the trigger can break off, allowing a round under the hammer to fire.
After some expensive lawsuits, that Ruger lost, filed by idiots who did not understand how to safely shoot a Three Screw, the New Models were made available sometime in the early 1970s, and Ruger stopped making the Three Screws.
Here is my New Model Blackhawk completely disassembled. The long thin part attached to the trigger is the transfer bar. The transfer bar is only in position to "transfer" the hammer blow to the frame mounted firing pin when the trigger is pulled. Otherwise, the transfer bar is lowered and the hammer cannot reach the firing pin. Modern Rugers like this are completely safe to carry fully loaded, with a live round under the hammer, because even if the hammer is struck, it cannot reach the frame mounted firing pin.
Here are the lockwork parts to my New Model Blackhawk. The only cocking notch on the hammer is the full cock notch, there is no "Safety Cock" notch and no half cock notch. To load or unload a New Model Ruger, the loading gate needs to be opened, which frees the cylinder to rotate for unloading and loading.
Here is why you cannot/must not push the velocity in your Uberti Cattleman. All three cylinders in this photo are chambered for 45 Colt. The three cylinders, left to right, are from an Uberti Cattlman (just like yours) a stainless Ruger "original model" Vaquero, and a 2nd Gen Colt. Notice how much thicker the chamber walls are at their thinnest sections on the Ruger cylinder than the other two. This Ruger Vaquero cylinder has the same dimensions as a New Model Blackhawk. I don't recall right now exactly how much metal is between the chambers, but you can see it is visibly more than with the other two cylinders. In addition, Ruger moved the bolt locking slots in their cylinders off center from the center of the chambers. The Uberti and Colt cylinders have the locking slots directly on center with the chambers. This means there is very little metal between the chambers and the locking slots, which makes that the weakest spot in the cylinders. Moving the locking slots off center means there is more metal between the chambers and the locking slots on a Ruger cylinder than either of the other two.
I do not have a copy of your Hornady book, but I have several other loading manuals. Specifically, my 13th edition of the Speer manual has a section just for 45 Colt for Ruger & Contender ONLY loads. The loads in that section are OK for a modern New Model 45 Colt Ruger. I am not going to give you specific load advice, that is what manuals are for. But you need to be aware that achieving 1000 fps is not the end of the story. Bullet weight has a huge affect on maximum velocity. One weight of bullet might easily do 1000 fps, but a heavier bullet might be a KABOOM waiting to happen.
Again study my first photo. The older Three Screw Rugers are easy to identify, and tell apart from a modern New Model Ruger.
I bought it new about 7 months ago.
I found a picture of the end of the cylinder of a Uberti Cattleman in 45 Colt. The spaces between the chambers are pretty large compared to the original 1873 Army. Mine looks just like this except its nickel plated. I've packed mine to ship it back to Uberti to have them check the cylinder gap, chamber and barrel diameter.
bigpower491
Member
I sure like mine. I've got a thing for unfluted cylinders. I've had this one a couple years, did some tuning to it, and it is a rather good shooter. It's probably one of my most accurate revolvers, and pretty pleasant at around 850ish velocity wise. I have loaded it hotter, but it's alot more fun and accurate at that 850-900 node
Stainless, 2002
Bazoo
Member
Very true.
35 Whelen
Member
ECVMatt
Member
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- Jan 7, 2004
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- 2,870
@Barmcd - I have had a Ruger Bisley model for quite a while. The load I shoot the most is a 255 SWC at 1100 fps. This load does 95% of the things I need done with the revolver and is pretty easy to shoot. I have shot 1000's of these loads and get really good life with my brass. For the other 5%, I use a 325 HC bullet at 1100. It is not crazy powerful, but will shoot all the through most things. A few years ago I picked up a SS Bisley for my son; hopefully he will carry on the tradition.
If you really want to go down the 45 Colt/Bisley rabbit hole, search for Ross Seyfried/Ruger Bisley/45 Colt.
Regular 45 Colt is plenty powerful, but it you need more I would leave the Colt clones behind and move to the NM Ruger.
If you really want to go down the 45 Colt/Bisley rabbit hole, search for Ross Seyfried/Ruger Bisley/45 Colt.
Regular 45 Colt is plenty powerful, but it you need more I would leave the Colt clones behind and move to the NM Ruger.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
It's absolutely the bolt notch. Else every gunsmith that builds cylinders is wrong.
OS/N
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- Nov 2, 2023
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- 250
Work your loads up from starting pressures and approach max loads slowly. In general when your groups stop rising (25 or furture yards) and start spreading out you have found the limits of the handgun. In 45C this is generally around max load in the 14kpsi tables. Cylinder gap and throats, forcing cone depth, bullet alloy, powder speed, brass hardness, and etc all contribute to pressure. 850-900fps with 250/255 cast more than not shoots best.
Stronger framed and built revolvers allow the groups to stay together at more pressure so can be run hotter. Don't expect those loads to work well in weaker framed firearms though. Screws getting loose or cylinder binding making it harder to cock is a sure sign that you are loading too hot for your handgun and will start happening at the same time the groups start to open up.
You can clock your loads or try using someone elses pet loads but letting your target tell you what's going on is the best way to load - assuming a good manual is within reach and used.
Stronger framed and built revolvers allow the groups to stay together at more pressure so can be run hotter. Don't expect those loads to work well in weaker framed firearms though. Screws getting loose or cylinder binding making it harder to cock is a sure sign that you are loading too hot for your handgun and will start happening at the same time the groups start to open up.
You can clock your loads or try using someone elses pet loads but letting your target tell you what's going on is the best way to load - assuming a good manual is within reach and used.
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I appreciate all the input. I sent the Uberti to their service center this morning. They said they'd check it out, repair anything out of spec, and pay for shipping back to me. I don't know if they'll find anything, but it's worth $28 to find out. I'm still contemplating the Bisley Blackhawk. I really want a 45 Colt that will shoot more than Cowboy loads and I haven't been able to get the Uberti over 800 FPS. That's puzzling me because the data in the Hornady manual was developed using a 5 1/2" barrel 1873 Army Colt revolver. That's exactly what I have. I get the Italian clones may not be as precisely engineered, but I can't even come close to the numbers in the book.
35 Whelen
Member
Have you checked to make sure your problem isn't with the chronograph? I realize some guns are "slower" than others, but having owned and chronographed at least a half dozen 45 Colt's, yours just seems an extreme example.
35W
35W
doubleh
Member
I have never had a revolver blow up. That is because I don't push the limits of reloading and almost always I find my best accuracy is attained slightly below the maximum load given in my manuals. If I think I want more power I go to a larger caliber.
Having spent a lot of my working life around high pressure systems I have found that a rupture always start at the thinnest place in the system. I am not an engineer but my supposition is that the same would hold true with revolver cylinders.
Having spent a lot of my working life around high pressure systems I have found that a rupture always start at the thinnest place in the system. I am not an engineer but my supposition is that the same would hold true with revolver cylinders.
unspellable
Member
Aside from thickness, there is a wide range of the steel's strength. A modern S&W heat treated cylinder will be far stronger than a vintage Colt SAA cylinder. A Webley MkVI has thick walls, but it's 19th century metallurgy.
unspellable
Member
Not necessarily the thinnest place. How the stress is distributed plays a big role. A long pipe is the simple hoop case where stress will concentrate at the thinnest point. In a revolver cylinder there is more stress on the web than the outer wall.
You're arguing with Colt and S&W, not me. Every blown cylinder I've seen was still intact at the bolt notch.
doubleh
Member
What about short pipes. One of the biggest messes I had to rebuild concerned two very short pipes.
Yes I'm sure as I can be. I've had it a few years and run many different loads through it. I re-shot a few of them to see if they still measured the same velocity and they did.
23.5 gr of H110 and 240 grain Hornady XTP in 6" S&W Model 29 44 mag - 1225 FPS
17 gr of Alliant 2400 and 250 grain Hornady XTP in 20" Rossi R92 45 Colt - 1450 FPS
10.3 gr Accurate No. 5 and 125 gr Hornady XTP in 6" S&W Model 586 357 mag - 1100 FPS
3.5 gr HP-38 and 148 gr Berry's DEWC in 6" S&W Model 14 38 Special - 745 FPS
5.3 gr CFE Pistol and 115 gr Berry's RN in 5" Springfield 1911 9 mm - 1080 FPS
These velocities are very close to the initial velocities I got when I worked up loads for these bullets/powders and they are close to the book data. I can't get anywhere near the book data with the Uberti.
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CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Post a pic. I don't think so. Every cylinder I've seen ripped at the bolt notch. This is never in question.
Rock185
Member
Barmcd, I think you're wise in considering the Bisley version. I had a 5.5" stainless .357 Bisley. The taller and differently shaped grip frame made the heaviest loads I used (180 grain @ 1500+ FPS) much more comfortable to shoot for me than the traditional short Blackhawk grip frame...YMMV
Lo-Profile
Member
Doesn't have three screws so it's a post 1973 model