New to USPSA

[rhino465]

You don't have to like it but you should understand that when IDPA was organized, maximum ten round magazines were the LAW, under AWB 1994-2004. There was a lot of hanky panky with magazines in USPSA, to the point I was surprised that the feds did not run a sting on the magazine parts racket.

Yes, I was alive then and was subject to those same laws spawned by the Omnibus Crime Act of 1994. The laws in most states didn't affect existing magazines, though, and there were a lot of them. I never violated those laws and I was able to acquire (legally) sufficient magazines holding more than ten rounds. I'll admit that my AR mags were in sad shape when I got them, but they functioned until sanity returned after those aspects of the law expired. I'm still using some of the Sig mags from those days.

Even if you think it was a reasonable idea back then, unless you live in a non-free state, what sense does it make now? Yeah, they finally allow 15 rounds in SSP, but the ten round limit still is in effect for ESP and the newish carry optics division.

Ultimately, though, I was talking about why I, rhino, don't prefer shooting IDPA when I have other options. The magazine capacity was just one element. The holster position thing was a bigger problem for me and you can't blame that on any laws.

 

[Jim Watson]

As Jeff Cooper said, "You will do as you think best."
I was shooting PPC and IPSC before there ever was an IDPA, made the transition, now shoot both IDPA and USPSA without getting dogmatic over the minutae.

 

[waktasz]

Yes, I was alive then and was subject to those same laws spawned by the Omnibus Crime Act of 1994. The laws in most states didn't affect existing magazines, though, and there were a lot of them. I never violated those laws and I was able to acquire (legally) sufficient magazines holding more than ten rounds. I'll admit that my AR mags were in sad shape when I got them, but they functioned until sanity returned after those aspects of the law expired. I'm still using some of the Sig mags from those days.

Even if you think it was a reasonable idea back then, unless you live in a non-free state, what sense does it make now? Yeah, they finally allow 15 rounds in SSP, but the ten round limit still is in effect for ESP and the newish carry optics division.

Ultimately, though, I was talking about why I, rhino, don't prefer shooting IDPA when I have other options. The magazine capacity was just one element. The holster position thing was a bigger problem for me and you can't blame that on any laws.

It's a sport, there are rules. With the 18 round max count stages no one would ever reload if there weren't capacity limits.
Believe me, I'm no IDPA fanboy, but I don't have a problem with the mag limits at all.

Also, the reason ESP and CO won't ever change is because those divisions are where single stack 9mm 1911s play and to allow 15 rounds in those divisions will obsolete those guns immediately.
Is it because Wilson sells 1911s? Could be. Could also be the age demographics of IDPA shooters gravitating toward 1911s regardless of Wilson's influence on the sport.

 

[rhino465]

It's a sport, there are rules. With the 18 round max count stages no one would ever reload if there weren't capacity limits.
Believe me, I'm no IDPA fanboy, but I don't have a problem with the mag limits at all.

Also, the reason ESP and CO won't ever change is because those divisions are where single stack 9mm 1911s play and to allow 15 rounds in those divisions will obsolete those guns immediately.
Is it because Wilson sells 1911s? Could be. Could also be the age demographics of IDPA shooters gravitating toward 1911s regardless of Wilson's influence on the sport.

My response to not needing to reload . . . so what? Is there something sacred about needing to reload on every course of fire? A local club hosts defensive 2-gun matches, based primarily on IDPA rules. They stick with the ten round limit for rifles, which in my opinion is absurd. When I asked them about it, they said it was "to force people to reload." When I asked them why they wanted to help condition people to reload after ten shots when their mags will normally have 30 or 28 rounds, the crickets were chirping.

For people who carry on a daily basis, why would they want to condition themselves to automatically reload after XX rounds? Back in the mid 1990s when some people moved from single stack 1911s to Paras, I watched a few (including my brother) who would reload during stages after shooting eight rounds/four targets every time, even though they had six or more rounds left in their magazine. It took them a while to de-program.

For people who only use their guns for shooting sport, I don't think it matters either way. For those of us who make use of the gun games for practice and vetting equipment, it matters.

 

[GEM]

I will opine that one ridiculous aspect of the games is people planning their reloads to save milliseconds of time. Living in a ban state, before the stage starts there is a giant discussion of when to reload for the 'best' time advantage. If you shoot to slide lock it is seen as the same as a mortal sin. Folks drop mags with live rounds all the time. Of course, this is a game and totally unrealistic. The tactical reload with the mag between your fingers in IDPA was equally ridiculous. There's little evidence of any of these game practices occurring in the real world - unless you are under cover and perhaps with a partner covering you.

If a real fight, folks have little idea of how many rounds they shot and certainly don't seem to count them to same game limit and reload. They just shoot till they are out and reload.

 

[ddc]

I will opine that one ridiculous aspect of the games is people planning their reloads to save milliseconds of time.

Seeing as how we are playing a game where time has a fundamental influence on your score then it is hardly ridiculous.

Now if you want to shoot the match using all your favorite defensive pistol tactics then you don't care about that sort of thing.

 

[waktasz]

Yes, I was alive then and was subject to those same laws spawned by the Omnibus Crime Act of 1994. The laws in most states didn't affect existing magazines, though, and there were a lot of them. I never violated those laws and I was able to acquire (legally) sufficient magazines holding more than ten rounds. I'll admit that my AR mags were in sad shape when I got them, but they functioned until sanity returned after those aspects of the law expired. I'm still using some of the Sig mags from those days.

Even if you think it was a reasonable idea back then, unless you live in a non-free state, what sense does it make now? Yeah, they finally allow 15 rounds in SSP, but the ten round limit still is in effect for ESP and the newish carry optics division.

Ultimately, though, I was talking about why I, rhino, don't prefer shooting IDPA when I have other options. The magazine capacity was just one element. The holster position thing was a bigger problem for me and you can't blame that on any laws.

It's just another skill to include. You could also say no one is going to run around a course and shoot a dozen targets in real life, so why not eliminate that and have every match just be standing in one spot and shooting one to three targets?

 

[Jim Watson]

Back when it was 10 shots maximum, we had the occasional short sharp tactical stage.
Now at 15, the MDs seem to fee called upon to stretch every stage to the maximum so SSP will have to reload, too. Or have a downloaded start.

Is it because Wilson sells 1911s? Could be. Could also be the age demographics of IDPA shooters gravitating toward 1911s

Wilsons are expensive, I do not see many guns in that price range at IDPA. And I don't know what people with those $5000-$10000 uber custom guns are doing with them.
I don't see all that many 1911s in the first place, and what there are not correlated well to age... except mine.

 

[mcb]

"Real men" shoot revolvers at these games. Nothing's better than beating the filthy bottom feeders with the noble round gun.

 

[Hoser]

"Real men" shoot revolvers at these games. Nothing's better than beating the filthy bottom feeders with the noble round gun.

The last IDPA match I shot I won overall with a 686SSR. At least thats what the unofficial results had. After the match the scoresheets somehow got "lost." Still makes me chuckle thinking of the delicate egos at play.

Haven't shot IDPA since.

 

[mcb]

The last IDPA match I shot I won overall with a 686SSR. At least thats what the unofficial results had. After the match the scoresheets somehow got "lost." Still makes me chuckle thinking of the delicate egos at play.

Haven't shot IDPA since.

I have had come close to that at a few IDPA matches but never won. That's even harder to do at USPSA matches with Open and Limited shooters but I have declared Production division a few times with my 8-shot revolver and won the division. My best was winning high over all at my home club's first three-gun match using my 8-shot revolver as my handgun.

 

[GEM]

Change the name from USPSA to US Game of Shooting Association. Nothing practical anymore. It's still fun I grant you. I was responding to someone wondering if being programmed to the 'game' would hurt you in a real fight on 'DA STREEZ'. That's an old debate, no real evidence for that anyway. If you think it is 'tactical', then the reload planning is ridiculous - so, yes - It's a game. So are the track meet aspects. I can never score highly as this geezer cannot run. Thus, I amble to a position and try for decent hits.

There's a subset of folks who shoot carry realistic gear for the SD practice of gun handling. Reloading with speed is a good thing, drop lots of ammo, silly. To each his or her own. I only shoot club matches.

 

[mcb]

Change the name from USPSA to US Game of Shooting Association. Nothing practical anymore. It's still fun I grant you. I was responding to someone wondering if being programmed to the 'game' would hurt you in a real fight on 'DA STREEZ'. That's an old debate, no real evidence for that anyway. If you think it is 'tactical', then the reload planning is ridiculous - so, yes - It's a game. So are the track meet aspects. I can never score highly as this geezer cannot run. Thus, I amble to a position and try for decent hits.

There's a subset of folks who shoot carry realistic gear for the SD practice of gun handling. Reloading with speed is a good thing, drop lots of ammo, silly. To each his or her own. I only shoot club matches.

Club matches, IDPA, USPSA, etc all do one thing really well, test your gear and your ability to run it in some pretty demanding situations. If you're competitive in these sports then your gun handling skills are almost certainly above the general gun owner's average and your equipment is reliable. Those sports punish poor gun handling and bad equipment with a vengeance.

 

[GEM]

That's true. Sometimes I run 'noncompetitive guns' like my 642 or G42 in the club match to get some shooting time under some performance pressure. I see folks run smaller 9mm semis from AIWBs (not for me) for the same reason, as compared to the game rigs.

 

[Smokin Gator]

I beat shooters with Open or Limited guns all the time shooting my 1911. But that is because of the different levels of competitiveness at the different clubs I shoot at. When I beat Open shooters it's shooters who are below my level of ability. I'm a B classified shooter. I'm not beating a Master or A Open shooter unless their gun breaks.

Recently I had the best score on one stage at our local match. But there were only 12 to 15 shooters there, can't remember exactly. That's not going to happen at a match with 50-75 shooters. Even at the bigger matches I will finish higher then some Open shooters, but again, that's because they are worse then me to start with.