S&W FPC and new folding 9mm PCC?

[Phaedrus/69]

It looks great to me! I watched the youtube review by Honest Outlaw and it seemed to have a lot going for it. His sample seemed to run great and was accurate. I love that it has a standard rail unlike the wonky Keltec one, and side folding means you don't need some weird kludgy solution to mount a RDS, and it seems like any AR sight or mount will work. The storage in the buttstock seems unnecessary but maybe welcome for some. All in all it looks great to me, but I wish there was a .40 or 10mm option. 9mm is great but for a woods/camping gun I'd like to be able run something heavier. Still I will be on the lookout once they hit stores. It seems to be everything my Beretta Storm Carbine should have been but wasn't.

 

[someguy2800]

You know, I look at that and see steel rollers that depress into cutouts into an aluminum alloy buffer tube and wonder how many shots fired it takes to wear out the cutouts in that buffer tube. https://www.davincimachining.com/scheel-manufacturing-roller-delayed-buffer-system

I have one and its working awesome so far but I only have a couple hundred rounds through it. I remember reading from the designer that they figured they would need to make a steel buffer tube but figured they would try an aluminum one just to prove the concept and ended up putting like 20,000 round through it in testing and it was still fine so they abandoned the steel buffer tube idea. I have read feedback from competitive shooters that have many thousands of rounds without failure, so it seams to hold up better than I would have ever expected. If it has a 10,000 round lifespan it will outlive me.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

There is a lot to like here.

Being light at 5 lbs is huge. Good to see that Smith didn't go down the seemingly usual PCC road and say "it's a long gun, so it needs to weigh 7 lbs." We shoot 9mms out of 35 oz pistols, for crying out loud. No reason why a 9mm carbine should weigh as much as a 30-06.

Side folding and mounting optics normally is huge. That's where they are going to take some market share from Kel-Tec.

3 mags included, 2 of them being hi-caps, takes some of the sting out for not taking ubiquitous Glock mags.

I think this is going to do pretty well for Smith.

 

[Capybara]

I have the M&P 12 Bullpump, this new FPC would make a nice companion piece. I've never been too keen on PCCs but for first time shooters, as a trunk, camp kind of plinker, this thing could be a lot of economical fun. A 9mm projectile through a
16" barrel actually adds some nice, well needed ballistic advantage and greater range capability too.

I had an Uzi carbine with the wood stock and 16" barrel because as a kid, I always wanted an Uzi. Problem was it didn't fold, weighed 12.5, yes, not a typo, 12.5lbs!
It was terrible and really boring to shoot as all SMGs that have been neutered to semi-auto, long barreled plinkers. No modern SBRs allowed in California so I had to take it as it was. I shot it a couple of times and promptly sold it. I have shot Uzi SMGs and they
are a blast but a neutered Uzi carbine, not so much.

This little FPC would solve almost everything I didn't like about the Uzi, it weighs less than half of what the tank-like Uzi weighed and it does fold. Thankfully with a 30 3/8" OAL, 16" barrel and the fact that it cannot be fired with the barrel folded away means that with the addition of a lame grip fin and getting some blocked 10 round mags, even the nanny state of California will let me buy one. Win-win. Seems like a fun plinker, I was impressed that Reeves went 10/10 off-hand on a relatively small steel plate at 100 yards with it.

BTW, watch the Sootch video, Smith & Wesson ships it in a nice, non-descript soft case that looks relatively small and slim, would definitely fit behind a truck seat or in a trunk. Probably too large though to fit under most car seats.

 

[Roverguy]

Would like one in 40.

 

[Choctaw]

I don't hate it but I wonder if S&W is trying to turn into Kel-Tec?

If it came in 40S&W and took XD magazine I would be more interested...

The FPC is based upon the M&P pistol which is a very good gun. Kel-Tek is based on plastic trigger assemblies and...well, plastic everything else.

 

[Capybara]

The FPC is based upon the M&P pistol which is a very good gun. Kel-Tek is based on plastic trigger assemblies and...well, plastic everything else.

A lot of people like KelTec guns but based upon my limited experience with the KSG, I would buy a Smith rifle over a KelTec any day of the week. I think KelTec is an interesting design/idea company but their QC and initial defect rate is higher than I would like.
When I bought my M&P 12, Smith issued a recall for cracked receivers but mine was manufactured after they remedied that so nobody is perfect so I get it. I have heard very good things about KelTec service so they get points for that
and they are an underdog compared to a behemoth like Smith & Wesson. But in this case, I'll buy the FPC over the KelTec any day.

 

[Capybara]

Would like one in 40.

Everyone seems to want it in 10mm more based upon what I've seen on several boards and threads on the GunTuber reviews. Perhaps Smith will issue it in other calibers if they sell well?

 

[Gordon]

I'll wait for a 10 mm version. My Ruger PCC 9 mm has a folding brace and I registered it for free SBR and the roller locked breech telescopic Calico 9mm works great last 25 years with 50 round helix mags.

 

[Capybara]

I'll wait for a 10 mm version. Mr Ruger PCC 9 mm and the roller locked breech Calico 9 works great last 25 years

Yep, you're all set! 10mm would be more fun and not that much more to shoot if you reload? 10mm factory new ammo is pretty pricey but I can reload it for probably .25 per round, depending on projectile?

 

[westernrover]

Why does it have a buffer-tube stock?

 

[someguy2800]

Why does it have a buffer-tube stock?

The bolt and buffer spring are in there. The bolt is like 8 inches long in order to get enough weight since it is not a locked breach gun.

 

[westernrover]

Of course, because they can't tilt the barrel to unlock it. I guess the Tempo rotating barrel system they developed for the M&P 5.7 didn't work out for the carbine for some reason.

 

[WestKentucky]

Easier to fit in a go-bag, under a seat, truck box, console, etc. I get it.

I get it too. If not silly price I could see myself buying one to replace the work AR.

 

[Capybara]

I get it too. If not silly price I could see myself buying one to replace the work AR.

$659 MSRP seems reasonable for a 9mm PCC in 2023.

 

[westernrover]

The problem is, of course, that it's useless when it's folded. I can understand not putting the magazine forward of the pistol grip, but if it is not, it necessitates the stock extended for the bolt of a blowback action. The other thing I don't like about it is the straight stock this requires that has no drop at the heel so that optics have to be mounted on a high perch instead of just over the bore center. Bottom line is I'm going to prefer a gas gun with a folding stock even if it's 5 inches longer when folded. The gun with the folding stock becomes more compact with a barrel that is shorter than 16", but this folding barrel gun doesn't look like it would.

What they have succeeded in doing here in practical terms is they've got a very compact when folded carbine that's shoulder-braced and with 63 rounds on the gun -- no need to remember to carry spare magazines somewhere else.

What's brilliant apart from the practicality of it is that this trashes the phony justification for regulating "arm braces." If a pistol like an AR9 or the APC9 or Kriss Vector with a short barrel has such greatly increased "lethality" and "concealability" that it needs to be regulated under the NFA when it is fitted with a "brace," here we have something with similar magazine capacity and "concealability" that will not be regulated under the NFA. I don't think this gun has heightened offensive capability. A would-be offender plans their attack and wouldn't have any trouble remembering to bring more magazines. Defenders are the ones who benefit from having everything they need on the gun for the unexpected attack. Offenders cannot practically conceal guns like these any more than they can conceal full-size rifles and shotguns -- either way, they're going to have to wear a trench coat or something huge. The compactness is rather a benefit to the defender who can keep one secured in the car, a gym bag under their control, or somewhere else so that they'll be prepared for the unexpected evil plans of another. People used to fear that concealability made handguns too dangerous, but we've since realized that this is an even greater benefit to defenders than it is to the offender. These folding carbines will never have the concealability of handguns, but their compactness and improved portability and smaller storage footprint will prove to be a greater benefit to defenders who keep them on hand than to the evil doers who have never needed a compact gun to do their harm.

 

[BreechFace]

I look at my Keltec Sub2k M*Carbo edition as a force multiplier when on a trip. The M*Carbo edition adds an upgraded trigger, taller aluminum iron sights, aluminum trigger guard/folding latch The benefits are such:

1. It folds very small and thin
2. Allows for both a mounted red dot (with a Midwest Industries mount), WML, and backup irons all stay where they are when folded.
3. Uses very common Glock magazines that can hold up to 33 rounds
4. Shares magazines with a G17, G19.
5. My primary SD weapon will be on my hip, so for my Keltec (or in this instance the S&W) not to be ready right away is a non-issue. This is for when there is a situation where I'm away from home and desire to have a carbine in case there is a situation that warrants more than a pistol.
6. Adds a lot of control ability and accuracy over a handgun.
7. Adds greater effectiveness to 9mm loadings out of a 16" barrel.
8. My suppressor is quick mountable to the ASR mount on the end.

The S&W doesn't interest me as I have my Sub2k which I think is a better iteration with the M*Carbo upgrades but I do have another $100 into it than what the S&W is expected to cost.

But the advantages of the S&W would be similar to what I listed above.

 

[someguy2800]

The benefit to having the barrel in line with the stock is that in a blowback 9mm you have a roughly 2 lb bolt reciprocating back and forth and when it hits both ends of its travel that weight has to stop abruptly and tends to knock the gun out of sight alignment. The recoil impulse from a 9mm pcc is pretty similar to the recoil impulse of a 223 rifle even though its a lot less powerful. Most of that recoil is coming from the reciprocating bolt.

 

[Capybara]

The benefit to having the barrel in line with the stock is that in a blowback 9mm you have a roughly 2 lb bolt reciprocating back and forth and when it hits both ends of its travel that weight has to stop abruptly and tends to knock the gun out of sight alignment. The recoil impulse from a 9mm pcc is pretty similar to the recoil impulse of a 223 rifle even though its a lot less powerful. Most of that recoil is coming from the reciprocating bolt.

Based on James Reeves from TFB TV YouTube, he had zero issues hitting a steel plate 10/10 rapid fire off-hand with a red dot with it. He was impressed and so was I watching the video. For me, 100 yards is def the practical limit to 9mm. Can longer shots be made? Of course, but that projectile has lost so much kinetic energy past 100 yards, it's fine for target shooting but for self defense...

 

[Captains1911]

Why can’t someone offer something Iike this in 10mm…

 

[hoardingthemanual]

Meh. They really did well with their 10 mm pistol. I don’t want a S&W branded Keltec. I never wanted a Keltec.

 

[someguy2800]

Based on James Reeves from TFB TV YouTube, he had zero issues hitting a steel plate 10/10 rapid fire off-hand with a red dot with it. He was impressed and so was I watching the video. For me, 100 yards is def the practical limit to 9mm. Can longer shots be made? Of course, but that projectile has lost so much kinetic energy past 100 yards, it's fine for target shooting but for self defense...

If you go on any of the competition forums like the Brian Enos forum, those guys go on and on about dot bounce and recovery times because they are splitting seconds. In my own shooting of 9mm pcc's it definitely makes a difference, but its a way bigger difference to just go to a delayed blowback of some sort with a lighter bolt and spring. Then the sight disruption practically disappears. Yeah the wheels kind of fall off 9mm past 100 yards. My AR9 will shoot like 3" groups at 100, but it takes a ridiculous amount of hold over at 200 and the groups open up dramatically because the bullet has gone transonic by then.

 

[westernrover]

The benefit to having the barrel in line with the stock is that in a blowback 9mm you have a roughly 2 lb bolt reciprocating back and forth and when it hits both ends of its travel that weight has to stop abruptly and tends to knock the gun out of sight alignment. The recoil impulse from a 9mm pcc is pretty similar to the recoil impulse of a 223 rifle even though its a lot less powerful. Most of that recoil is coming from the reciprocating bolt.

Yeah, my point is that it's not so much a benefit, but a necessary disadvantage. Everything you're saying is right, but they're all detracting from the value. The straight stock is ergonomically poor, but it's necessary for the blowback operation which has no advantages except being simple and cheap. I've fired a Sig MPX and I agree -- not only is it a heavy gun for its size, it also has a lot of 'recoil' because of that reciprocating mass. The B&T tames this somewhat with the hydraulic buffer. I still think a gas gun, whether it's DI like an AR (still a buffer tube job) or short stroke like the Sig Rattler or a long stroke like the AK is going to be better. Roller-delay is going to be better, but the H&K is pretty far from the $659 price league.

 

[someguy2800]

Yeah, my point is that it's not so much a benefit, but a necessary disadvantage. Everything you're saying is right, but they're all detracting from the value. The straight stock is ergonomically poor, but it's necessary for the blowback operation which has no advantages except being simple and cheap. I've fired a Sig MPX and I agree -- not only is it a heavy gun for its size, it also has a lot of 'recoil' because of that reciprocating mass. The B&T tames this somewhat with the hydraulic buffer. I still think a gas gun, whether it's DI like an AR (still a buffer tube job) or short stroke like the Sig Rattler or a long stroke like the AK is going to be better. Roller-delay is going to be better, but the H&K is pretty far from the $659 price league.

I think the ergonomics will depend more on what you are used too. I shoot a lot of AR’s so I’m very used to the ergonomics of having the barrel in-line with the stock so it’s a benefit to me because of familiarity. If someone was more used to say a mini 14 or an M1 carbine, they would probably favor the ergonomics of a ruger pcc.

Yeah we could really use some more economical roller delay guns. I had a CMMG radial delayed setup that I probably had around $750 into building with 3 mags, but I was never able to get that to work reliably. I have a different 9mm AR-15 now with a scheel roller delay buffer which I have similar money into. Putting the rollers in the buffer rather than on the bolt really simplifies things and I bet S&W could have integrated that system into this design with no more than about $50 in extra cost. Maybe Scheel has a patent on a roller delayed buffer but I can’t imagine any patent on any form of roller delay being defensible, it’s been around since like 1944.

 

[marvin02]

If you are looking for a bug out carbine to match your pistol and your pistol is 10mm or .45 or .357 or 9mm there is the TNW Aero Survival Rifle. It's available in all of those calibers and more. Pistol or rifle configuration. Uses Glock mags.

I do not own one. YouTube has lots of videos about them.

Personally I like the FPC.

FYI, Sportsman's Warehouse was taking orders for the FPC that would ship the second week of March.

I liked the Sootch vid because he showed the disassembly, Mrgunsngear has a review where he had some issues with his sample and I thought Honest Outlaw did a stream of consciousness review where you can tell he hasn't quite made up his mind.