Carbine's .45 v/s .9mm

[Dibbs]

I've gone the 9mm route. But I don't see many bears around here. (not that I'd want to face them with a 45ACP, either) The CX4 Storm is light, compact, reliable, and shares not only bullets, but also mags with your favorite Beretta sidearm.

As to home defense, the CX4 is light and compact enough to grab at a moment's notice, so I keep it within reach.

 

[FL-NC]

I would choose the 9mm for HD, for cost of ammo as well as the variety of cheaper practice ammo as well as more high performance stuff to take cae of business. As far as bears in the woods, I wouldn't use a PCC. You would be much better served with a shotgun full of buckshot or slugs.

 

[gotboostvr]

I have two PCC's

A braced CZ Scorpion, for all things high capacity, low recoil, cheap to feed.

A Rossi 16" 44mag M92 lever gun, for short range, in the brush, putting the thump on furry things.

Sounds like OP wants something like the scorpion, but could actually justify something more like the M92. Get both!

 

[MTMilitiaman]

I would go with the 10mm Auto in a carbine before I went with a .45, esp if bear was on the menu. A 220 gr hardcast can be driven from a 10mm handgun at over 1100 fps, so from a 16 inch barrel you could probably add another 100 fps or more to that, and that would be putting you in roughly .44 Mag territory. Both the 200 gr and 220 gr 10mms have a higher sectional density than a 230 gr .45 caliber round, which means all other things being equal, they should provide better penetration. Being able to get a 200 gr JHP to over 1400 fps for hunting and defense, and a 220 gr hard cast well into the range of legit .41 Magnum makes the 10mm Auto in a carbine much more potent and useful than a .45 carbine. The .45 just doesn't have the testicular fortitude to compete.

The 9mm operates at enough pressure to give decent bang for the buck from a carbine, so if it was just fun or home defense, or if the price of ammo was a consideration, I might vote for the 9mm. But if you need more power than the 9mm from your carbine, I would vote for the 10mm Auto over the .45 Auto.

 

[Riomouse911]

If the 45acp will chamber and fire 45 super then 45 acp all the way.

It will chamber and fire .45 Super, the rounds are identical on the exterior.

Whether it'll hold up to the repeated firing of.45 Super rounds, that's the question...

My Super has a more oomph than +P .45 ACP when fired from the Springfield 1911, but it is reliable with .45 ACP ammo...so it may work out in a carbine.

Stay safe!

 

[Riomouse911]

...and when it comes to a pistol caliber carbine for bear country... it's my 1894 Trapper in .44 Magnum.

I really like my Ruger PC9, especially with the 33-round Glock magazines...but it's not anything close to what I would carry for bear defense.

Home defense; I load it with Winchester 124 gr +P Ranger SXT.

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

I chose 45 for my PCC.

I learned that you can get a impingement upper from macon armory and that sealed the deal for me.

I find the impingement to be as soft (softer?) shooting as a 9mm blowback but I am hitting steel a bit harder.

Very useful for spinners.

And i always had a thing for the 45 pcc concept. Like a discount Thompson.

Mine runs on a dedicated lower with Glock 21 be mags.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

How effective would those high end Underwood Exteme Penatrators be out of the Ruger and other PCCs?

I tried the 140 gr Xtrrme Penetrator 10mm loading. I clocked it out of my 5" Sig P220 at a little over 1500 fps. I clocked the same loading at 1750 fps out of the above pictured 16" carbine.

Obviously the case capacity of a 10mm is higher than 9mm or 45 acp and velocity gains would be less for 9 or 45, but my point is yes, the Underwood XP loads would gain some velocity and be quite effective. However, the question is will they be more effective than a hardcast at half the price?

I was pretty specific about mentioning the RUGER PCC,takedown.

Well 9mm would be effective for HD and be cheaper to shoot. If you are genuinely concerned about bears then I'd want the heavier bullet of a 45. If they are a passing concern, then just use heavy 9mm ammo.

 

[GarrettJ]

Carrying a pistol caliber anything with “bear defense” as the primary criteria is just foolish. Bring a “rifle caliber rifle”, or a shotgun with slugs at the very least.

My PCCs are for competition and general plinking. With that in mind, the 9mm makes the most sense, as none of the sports I shoot in give any advantage to shooting .45, and most have a bit of a disadvantage.

Having said that, I’ve got a couple of .45 long guns that have 30-round mags, so “standard capacity” is pretty even between the two calibers. Just not many options for extended capacity mags in .45 like there are in 9mm.

9mm long guns:


And a couple of .45s. I sold the Marlin a while back. But I can go .45 in the Uzi with 30-round grease gun mags as well.

 

[scaatylobo]

I just "love" the " take a 30-30,or why do you want to ------------------- comments.

I asked a very simple question and silly me = expected simple answers.

Not so many comments [ yes I did expect a 'few' to drift ] about what they prefer,or believe is THE only round.

I am pretty sure I own about as many calibers as most [ might even beat a few ] on here.

This was not an open question,I think I worded it fairly well.

Choice one .45 acp

Choice two .9mm

And if I needed a FAST reaction gun ----- of course it would not be a take down = duh uh.

 

[GarrettJ]

I asked a very simple question and silly me = expected simple answers.

Not so many comments... about what they prefer,or believe is THE only round.

Really? That’s specifically what you asked for:

I am asking what reasons YOU [ yes I need a reason ] would choose a PCC [ pistol caliber carbine ] in either .45acp or .9mm.

Any mention of the (non-existent) Ruger was mentioned almost as an afterthought.

 

[chicharrones]

I am asking what reasons YOU [ yes I need a reason ] would choose a PCC [ pistol caliber carbine ] in either .45acp or .9mm.
. . .
Second scenario was for home defense = do you still feel the same about the woods choice ?.

I was pretty specific about mentioning the RUGER PCC,takedown.
. . .
But I am praying for a carbon fiber stock for the TAKEDOWN Ruger soon.

Making it MUCH lighter than all other choices.

I chose 9mm due to ammo cost, ammo capacity, and home defense a possibility (compared to using a handgun). Plinking with FMJ 9mm is about as close to the shooting cost of a .22LR that a centerfire gun gets.

Regarding the excellent Ruger Takedown PCC, I went a different path this past Spring with the Beretta CX4. The folding CZ Skorpion was also considered by me, but just out of the price range I wanted to stick to.

Compared to the Ruger PCC, the CX4 is 1.1 lbs. lighter, 4.6 inches shorter (ready to shoot), and has fold down sights (rear has 2 ranges). Around here, the Ruger is $165.00 less, but how much would a carbon fiber stocked Ruger PCC cost?

I know the CX4 in 9mm isn't for everyone, but it is the choice I actually made not that many months ago even with the Ruger PCC already on the market.

View attachment 807460



EDIT: By the way, the CX4 takes down by removing a single wedge pin, which allows you to slide the upper and lower apart.The gun could be put in a bag in that condition if desired. Much like an AR can be carried in a bag with the upper and lower separated.

updated photo
View attachment 807730

 

[jdh]

I'm personally waiting on the PCC to come out in 10mm. I would go with a 9mm over a 45 though. If I was in bear country and needed something handy and packable I'd honestly be checking the ballistics out of mare's leg. Largely because I'm a lever action nerd but I rented one recently with my wife a while back and I was extremely impressed how easy it was to shoot once you got the hang of it. My wife wants one now for her camp gun.

Olympic has a 10 mm upper: http://www.olyarms.com/shop/pistol-caliber/k10ur-or.html

 

[GarrettJ]

Olympic has a 10 mm upper: http://www.olyarms.com/shop/pistol-caliber/k10ur-or.html

Olympic went out of business a year ago.

 

[jdh]

Olympic went out of business a year ago.

Uhh, no.

"Update 3-12-2018
As has been announced on previous occasions, Olympic Arms is working through the process of transitioning into new ownership. This process with a corporation that has more than 42 years history, industry innovations that have led to dozens of patents and mounds of intellectual property - takes quite some time to sift through and guide into new ownership. With each step, new legal and procedural hurdles are discovered that must be jumped, and the process still continues."
http://www.olyarms.com/

 

[Corpral_Agarn]

If 10mm is the round of choice i would highly recommend Macon armory for that too.

Good people and excellent products.

 

[Texas10mm]

Some people in this thread must think the black bears in the lower 48 are a lot bigger than they are.

 

[GarrettJ]

Uhh, no.

"Update 3-12-2018
As has been announced on previous occasions, Olympic Arms is working through the process of transitioning into new ownership...

Ok. Fair enough.

Although that sounds to me like they’re currently still out of business, and someone is in the process of starting a new business using their name, previous assets, etc.

The new company may be better rnorse than the old Oly Arms, and they maybir may not offer the same stuff. And they may or may not chose to support products from the previous company of the same name.

Currently, the only Oly Arms guns available were built by a company that no longer exists.

 

[jdh]

Ok. Fair enough.

Although that sounds to me like they’re currently still out of business, and someone is in the process of starting a new business using their name, previous assets, etc.

The new company may be better rnorse than the old Oly Arms, and they maybir may not offer the same stuff. And they may or may not chose to support products from the previous company of the same name.

Currently, the only Oly Arms guns available were built by a company that no longer exists.

Didn't want to use more band width than necessary but it appears it is necessary. It continues:
"In the meantime, Olympic Arms remains open for business to both Dealer and Retail customers. While some product lines have been suspended and other areas of production refocused, we have no intention to cease production and have every intention to continue in operation until the conclusion of this transition. We are confident that there will be an Olympic Arms moving forward. Continue to buy with confidence, and we will continue to be here to provide the quality customer service you have come to know and expect.

Our retail storefront is still open for local walk-in business as well, with hours of operation from 7:30 – 4:00 every weekday unless otherwise noted. Olympic Arms can be reached by phone from 7:00 AM to 3:30 PM Pacific Time, Monday through Friday. Feel free to contact us via email at [email protected] with any questions or comments."

 

[desidog]

As a lefty I loved the Cx4 for its ambi safety and eject... but when I was hiking in the Frank Church River of No Return area in search of golden trout, I was descending a narrow gorge and came face to butt with a black bear, who luckily for me had its head in a berry bush. I backed up a couple hundred yards and waited an hour before moving down; and didn’t see it again. It was the morning so the wind was coming up and it didn’t get wind of me. BUT, my next stop once back in town was the gun store. (I got a model 70 LH .300 wsm for a bargain since they couldn’t sell a lefty action)

 

[Dibbs]

I would go with the 10mm Auto in a carbine before I went with a .45, esp if bear was on the menu. A 220 gr hardcast can be driven from a 10mm handgun at over 1100 fps, so from a 16 inch barrel you could probably add another 100 fps or more to that, and that would be putting you in roughly .44 Mag territory. Both the 200 gr and 220 gr 10mms have a higher sectional density than a 230 gr .45 caliber round, which means all other things being equal, they should provide better penetration. Being able to get a 200 gr JHP to over 1400 fps for hunting and defense, and a 220 gr hard cast well into the range of legit .41 Magnum makes the 10mm Auto in a carbine much more potent and useful than a .45 carbine. The .45 just doesn't have the testicular fortitude to compete.

The 9mm operates at enough pressure to give decent bang for the buck from a carbine, so if it was just fun or home defense, or if the price of ammo was a consideration, I might vote for the 9mm. But if you need more power than the 9mm from your carbine, I would vote for the 10mm Auto over the .45 Auto.

Point well taken, however, the 10MM caliber has a scant selection of carbines.

 

[Stumper]

While I own Handguns in .45 , 9X19 and 10mm my choice in Pistol caliber carbines has been and remains 9mm. As I see it the PCCs primary role in real life is as a fun plinker which has real applications as a defense arm or food gathering tool. 9mm ammo is cheaper and lighter weight therefore I can shoot more in the plinking role and carry more in the other roles. 9mm is smaller in diameter and less destructive with ball ammo for shooting small game. None of these is an ideal round for large game but all are adequate in penetration to be pressed into such service so the 9 still serves.

 

[Bill1225]

I love both cartridges but with that being said and having owned a pcc in both I have held onto my colt 9mm ar cheaper to shoot and god forbid I truest needed to use it I'm quite certain the newer 9mm bullets will work great , if I had to use it in a combat or defense situation I would use federal hst and not have a doubt about its stopping power compared to a 45 acp and I honestly hope and never see that happening so main reason I prefer the 9mm is I can shoot it a lot cheaper I also like the colt product because asking as I keep it clean I'm not worried about getting a return on my investment I have never had a colt product I didn't get my money back on

 

[Godsgunman]

If I'm carrying something that big and bulky it's more like a Draco with 20-30 rnds of 7.62x39. For that size, far better options than 9mm or 45.

 

[Bushpilot]

My choice would be neither. But if forced to pick one, 9mm all the way. A 147 gr hardcast 9mm bullet will out perform anything in 45 if forced to be used against bear. It's been about 14 months ago but Phil Shoemaker stopped an attacking brown bear in Alaska with this load from a sub compact 9mm pistol. He had spent quite a bit of time testing the load prior to deciding to carry it and was confident of it working.

I look at Pistol Caliber Carbines as inexpensive plinkers (by centerfire ammo standards) and home defense guns, not as bear defense guns. While I would rather have one in either 9mm or 45 acp than a pointed stick if I was attacked by a bear, I would agree that neither would be a caliber that I would choose. I don't think one is decidedly better than the other though when it comes to bears as most of these calibers necessitate head shots to be truly effective anyway.

Sure, we've all heard the stories about this or that instance when a relatively small gun stopped a bear. I know of several involving 22 rifles, the most notable probably being Bella Twin and her world record Grizzly. However, I'm not about to jump on any band wagon and start touting a 9mm Luger or .22 Long (or 45acp) as a "Bear Stoppers" just because some one once killed a bear with one. Just as I'm not about to go off chasing Grizzlies with a 25-35 rifle just because "Old Ephraim" was downed by one. I put intentionally relying on a 9mm pistol as a bear stopper, especially a Brown Bear stopper, solidly in the "bad idea" category....

So, back to your question, which one would I choose? I'd choose a 9mm because the ammo is so much cheaper and a 9mm carbine is a good plinking and home defense round. If, against all odds, I happened to be attacked by a bear while carrying it I certainly would use it and it likely/hopefully would have some positive impact on the situation, but I wouldn't be carrying it with bear defense in mind...