PCC, Why Not .30 Carbine?

[amprecon]

Ok, I get the Pistol Caliber Carbine concept, but they are usually limited to 9mm, .40s&w and .45acp.

As maligned as the .30 carbine is, always being slighted as more of a pistol caliber, why aren't PCC's ever chambered in the anemic .30 carbine. As it's compared to the .357 magnum and .357 magnum's are not ever used in PCC's, why not use the .30 Carbine in a PCC?

The latest trend is to base a PCC on the AR platform, why has no one ever decided to chamber an AR in .30 Carbine?

Or is it heresy to offer it in any firearms but M1 Carbine and Ruger Blackhawk?

I guess an argument for PCC's is their use of cheaper pistol ammo for fun, I am able to find it for $0.34 a round which is on par with .40s&w and .45acp ammo.

So I hereby submit that an AR Manufacturer test the waters and see if there is a demand for a .30 Carbine caliber AR PCC.

 

[barnbwt]

Sadly, the American gun-sumer is now so lazy and cheap, that few will consider anything not already committed to by the members of NATO or law enforcement, as their purchase volume artificially reduces prices and makes purchasing more convenient.

30 Carbine would make an excellent round for the PS90, for instance, since it is nearly straight-walled and about the right length for the mag as-is, probably about 40rnds would fit the thing. A big part of the Carbine's problem is it's very low ballistic coefficient due to stubby round-nose bullets, makes it a poor performer at range and with rapid bullet drop.

Which is why Mr. Johnson came up with the 22 Spitfire, which necked the cartridge down to 22 for a round slightly larger and more powerful than the 5.7x28 --which is if anything slightly small for a PDW round-- to make arguably the perfect PDW round in the small/fast category.

TCB

 

[barnbwt]

Check it!
MAGAL Carbine


TCB

 

[Tommygunn]

What kind of PCC do you mean?
I don't think a lever-action type would work so well in .30 carbine; the round is rimless and much ammo is loaded with ball ammo.
It isn't really a "pistol" caliber round, even though there have been handguns chambered for it. It packs more punch than just about every common handgun round, although in a rifle barrel you can get a .44 magnum to surpass it in energy, IIRC.
Also, it's getting a bit scarce to find .... I sorta don't think too many companies are willing to develop a firearm in that caliber unless somehow it becomes more popular ~~ and I'm sorry but I don't see that happening.
It seems to me I recall that someone once did chamber an AR in .30 carbine but I don't remember enough to be sure, although it's hardly heretical to chamber it to any type of firearm. The company making the guns, however, has to have good reason to believe they will sell enough to make $$$$ and perhaps they see nothing ahead for the round except for people shooting WW2 weapons and their reproductions.

 

[amprecon]

Check it!
MAGAL Carbine

Looks like that's been out for some time, but never caught on, interesting concept though.

I guess the M1 Carbine is a PCC of sorts. It's just one of those calibers that doesn't quite fit any niche that well.

If I were bent on getting a PCC I'd probably go for an AR in 9mm instead of .30 carbine, one reason would be that the ammo is cheaper and same caliber as my pistols and I won't have to add another caliber to the collection. Looks like I'm talking myself out of it.

 

[Ascot500]

These guys have been promising one for years:

http://www.excelarms.com/rifles/xseriesrifle.html

 

[Sam1911]

So I hereby submit that an AR Manufacturer test the waters and see if there is a demand for a .30 Carbine caliber AR PCC.

While we've had several threads recently which got pretty unpleasant with folks riling up over why they did/didn't feel that the .30 Carbine round was better for some things than the 5.56, it still leaves the question:

WHY?

Cost to develop such a thing isn't low. Getting ARs to work reliably with even the 9mm (and whatever magazines hold it) has not been foolproof. And there's many thousands of shooters who've got 9mm ammo and guns coming out of their ears so they WANT that gun.

And you've got .300 Blackout/Whisper, and even 7.62x39 already established for folks who love an AR but want it in .30 caliber. And either of those is significantly ahead of the .30 Carbine in performance, even though roughly in the same "class" if you will. Those just occupy the field where a .30 Carbine AR would stand.

So, sure it could be done and sure a few folks would buy one. But enough to make it work any maker's while?

 

[dogmush]

Olympic Arms used to offer an AR in .30 Carbine. It apparently didn't sell all that well because they discontinued it. It took M1 Carbine mags IIRC.

 

[Merle1]

Ok, I get the Pistol Caliber Carbine concept, but they are usually limited to 9mm, .40s&w and .45acp.

As maligned as the .30 carbine is, always being slighted as more of a pistol caliber, why aren't PCC's ever chambered in the anemic .30 carbine. As it's compared to the .357 magnum and .357 magnum's are not ever used in PCC's, why not use the .30 Carbine in a PCC?

The latest trend is to base a PCC on the AR platform, why has no one ever decided to chamber an AR in .30 Carbine?

Or is it heresy to offer it in any firearms but M1 Carbine and Ruger Blackhawk?

I guess an argument for PCC's is their use of cheaper pistol ammo for fun, I am able to find it for $0.34 a round which is on par with .40s&w and .45acp ammo.

So I hereby submit that an AR Manufacturer test the waters and see if there is a demand for a .30 Carbine caliber AR PCC.

Marlin (and I believe others) have produced 357 mag lever gun carbines, so it can be considered a PCC.

 

[jmr40]

The PPC's in traditional pistol caliber rounds such as 9mm, 45 etc. are fading from serious use. They remain somewhat popular as range toys. Most people who use a gun for serious work are finding the 223 caliber AR in a carbine length does everything better than the PCC's. Just because a handful of people on the internet think a 30 Carbine round would offer something useful doesn't mean there would be enough people to buy one to make it profitable enough to produce.

 

[ThomasT]

Marlin model 62 in 30 carbine. http://www.armslist.com/posts/37102...-rifles-for-sale--marlin-62-lever--30-carbine

And like amprecon I have asked the same question. I would like an H&R Handi Rifle in 30 carbine. Sort of an American Rook & Rabbit rifle. It might be a bit much for rooks and rabbits but thats what hand loading is for.

I wish ruger would make a mini-14 in 30 carbine. Than we could take a break from the Mini vs AR threads and have a Mini vs 30 Carbine heated discussion instead.

Even a nice lightweight bolt action would be cool. Maybe a mini mauser MK10 action or one of the new reduced size Howa rifles. How cool would that be?

http://www.legacysports.com/mini-action-rife

Or how about a CZ 527 rilfe in 30 carbine? The possibilities are there. And the round is popular. So whats the hold up?

 

[entropy]

Several flaws in your basic premise, amprecon:

1. If a carbine is made in .30 Carbine, it is by definition NOT a pistol caliber carbine, because it is in a carbine caliber.

2. Winchester, Marlin, Henry, and all the repros of them, have been making .357 Mag. pistol caliber carbines for many years. They all made them in .44 Mag., and .45 LC, also pistol calibers. Ruger even made a semi-auto in .44 Magnum.

3. Not so much a heresy, but you must consider the rifle and round that inspired the M1 Carbine, the .351 Winchester Self-Loader, wasn't very popular either. A commercial flop, it was foisted off on the LE community, even then it mostly went to prison guards.

Most people buying any new carbine in .30 Carbine (that isn't an M1 Carbine repro) would be buying it for the nostalgia of the round, and there just isn't the market for it, as slow sales of the Magal have demonstrated.

As for why the .30 Carbine isn't offered in the AR platform, there have been several reasons already given. The Magal is a well designed weapon, and it still didn't catch on. I personally would like to see an AK version of the Bizon chambered in .30 Carbine, but it probably isn't going to happen either.

 

[barnbwt]

"The PPC's in traditional pistol caliber rounds such as 9mm, 45 etc. are fading from serious use."

Hmm...
CZ Skorpion EVO
B&T APC9
B&T TP9/MP9
SIG MPX
AUG 9mm
And the litany of assorted AR blowbacks

And easily just as many developed in the five years or so before these. If anything, the PCC market is as hot as it's been since the M4 came out and sucked all the air out of the fire. Clearly the ones marketed to civilians aren't being used seriously (unless you count defense, which I guess we don't) but there's a ton being marketed to agencies, who I just have to assume are snapping them up or the companies wouldn't bother.

TCB

 

[M1key]

During the more recent ammo banic 30 carb was impossible to find and expensive as heck when you did. That is probably as good a reason as any why PCCs in that caliber don't go very far.

That, and the fact that the Magal is one fugly dude.

M

 

[Panzerschwein]

Marlin (and I believe others) have produced 357 mag lever gun carbines, so it can be considered a PCC.

Everything from the original 1860 Henry to the Winchester 1873 to the Marlin 1892 were "pistol caliber rifles" if you will. Back in them days, it was considered a "plus" to have a handgun (Colt SAA, Remington 1875 et al) chambered in the same caliber as your rifle, and vice versa.

The concept is absolutely nothing new, and in fact is about 150 years old. Hell, even some early single shot flintlock and percussion pistols were chambered in the same caliber as the infantry musket for this reason, making the concept perhaps 250 years and older.

 

[barnbwt]

"1. If a carbine is made in .30 Carbine, it is by definition NOT a pistol caliber carbine, because it is in a carbine caliber."
That was true at one time, but thanks to a modern understanding of gas system dynamics, we have 'rifle' cartridges that can operate from a lightweight 'carbine' longarm format. 'Carbine' has only ever meant "shorter rifle," and rifles seem to get shorter every decade. A better definition is needed, that doesn't move around so much.

I like to use the term PDW since it implies a difference in intended purpose moreso than rifle/carbine (even though it's use has been polluted by M4's marketed as PDWs, which are themselves indistinguishable from assault rifles). Mission scope is the only practical way to draw otherwise arbitrary lines when describing rifle and cartridge characteristics, so we can compare/contrast them.

Pistols are meant to be unobtrusive while still providing a basic means of lethal defense. PDWs are meant to be carried a lot more than they are shot while other activities take place, assault rifles are meant to be carried to an objective that likely needs to be shot at (with overwhelming force, as dictated by modern tactics)

Clearly, all three of these are frequently (and improperly, imo) used interchangeably by officers and military, and generally all can get each other's jobs done. But a rifle as a daily carry weapon for an officer tasked with addressing noise concerns is more hindrance than is worth the effort (so he likely won't be carrying it if attacked), and likewise sending officers with convenient pistols into an active shooting against heavily armored bank robbers with assault rifles is a dangerous exercise in futility.

PDW bridges the gap, giving one almost the full range of an assault rifle (200-250yds, realistically with 1X sights) as well as sufficient ballistic energy to challenge armored targets closer in, but is a much smaller, lighter, and generally easier to shoot platform otherwise (recoil, muzzle flash, concussion). It is meant to be used from a defensive stance, from a covered position or in retreat using volume fire to slow down or stop attackers who may have fire superiority, long enough for dedicated offensive troops to push back with coordinated tactics. It just so happens the vast majority of these criteria are directly applicable to a home defense scenario.

For aiming down a hallway over your mattress in confined room, I can think of little better than a (suppressed) PDW or PCC. PDWs are slightly more powerful than is needed for that situation (15yds max range) but are often lighter-recoiling than blowback PCCs firing larger bullets (9mm AR vs PS90 or M1 Carbine)

TCB

 

[amd6547]

I never had a problem finding 30 carbine ammo for $20/50 over the last couple years.
Personally, I went through a PCC phase for a couple years, and owned a few.
I sold my last one, an Uzi, to fund a GI carbine from the CMP. The 30 carbine round offers more performance and the M1 carbine is significantly lighter than the Uzi.
A minimum length, lightweight 30 carbine bullpup would be great.

 

[Ascot500]

I think the question is flawed
The real question is: If someone made an AR-"30 carbine" at a competitive price, would you buy one?
I would
Why?
Because its my money and I want one

So there you go

In the time since Oly Arma last made their version, the AR platform has grown exponentially in popularity
There is always room for one more version

 

[M1key]

I never had a problem finding 30 carbine ammo for $20/50 over the last couple years.

The past two years? no. I'm talking pre-2008 to post 2012 time frame. In the era of $2000 ARs, $1500 AKs, etc. Even my local WM had ARs people were on waiting lists for. Folks at shows were buying up all my reloads back then. No sane person does that. Only desperate ones. LOL

223, 9mm, 380, 45 ACP, 22LR ammo if you could find it was being scalped so bad it made your eyes water. Tons of 40 S&W still just sitting on the store shelves. What's that tell you? (own at least one 40) That speaks to how big demand was. Things are MUCH more plentiful now. Even 22LR has come back down to earth.

Nothing to say it won't happen again. Watch what happens when we get closer to the elections...30 Carbine? Puh-leeze.

Good luck boys and girls

M

 

[egd]

Like someone above said, if you already have a pistol in a caliber it's fun to have a rifle that can shoot the same cartridges. I just bought a 9mm ar for that reason.

 

[rondog]

The originals are just fine for me. Perfection.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Back in the 1970s I had a Marlin 62 in .30 Carbine; it ran well with Federal ammo, but gave stiff extraction with some military surplus .30 Carbine ammo. I considered it a varmint gun, tactical equivalent of a .32-20 carbine. I now have an IBM 1943 M1 Carbine which I shoot in the local military matches.

The market for new .30 Carbine caliber carbines appears small. The Magal was a version of the IMI Galil MAR and used the same ammo and magazines at the M1 Carbine. Since the Israeli and Brazilian police were and still are users of the M1 Carbine, they were about the only buyers of the Magal, probably because they were already invested in .30 Carbine ammo and magazines and were satisfied with its performance for police work.

The only interest I see in .30 Carbine caliber carbines is among vintage military collectors and shooters who usually want an M1 or M1A1 original or relica.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

If I want a pistol-caliber carbine, I want it in a pistol caliber. The .30 Carbine isn't a pistol caliber, it's an intermediate rifle cartridge. If I want a carbine chambered for an intermediate rifle cartridge, there are already plenty of (arguably) better choices out there. Love the M1 carbine but have no interest in the round otherwise.

 

[Ibmikey]

In response to the lever cartridges in 1873 Winchesters, the cartridges 25-20, 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40 are not pistol cartridges....each of them were first offered as a rifle cartridge and later pistols (except the 25-20). So today we tend to call them pistol calibers but who cares? Just shoot them in pistols or rifles they are fun.

 

[tarosean]

"The PPC's in traditional pistol caliber rounds such as 9mm, 45 etc. are fading from serious use."

Hmm...
CZ Skorpion EVO
B&T APC9
B&T TP9/MP9
SIG MPX
AUG 9mm
And the litany of assorted AR blowbacks

And easily just as many developed in the five years or so before these.

yep there are many others that didnt even make your list..
I would say they are more popular now than ever before. Basic economics tells us if they didnt sell they wouldnt be around..