No mag compatibility there either.
PCC, Why Not .30 Carbine?
- Thread starter amprecon
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True, but you could use the mag like a speed loader....No mag compatibility there either.
entropy
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The Russians did something similar, necked the x39 case up to 9mm for their short-range suppressed sniper rifle, the VSK94:
I often wondered why DARPA or such didn't do the same thing with 5.56x45. Perhaps there's a good reason. Maybe they figured the had the .458 SOCOM and the .50 Beowulf if they wanted something like that, and then the .300 Blackout more recently, and figured it wasn't worth the trouble now.
As for .30 Carbine being a good HD round; My aunt has her M1 Carbine for that purpose, though she has her choice of any of my uncles' pistols or shotguns. She tolerates the recoil well, is quite accurate with it (they live in a rural area), and loves to shoot it, so she practices with it regularly. Then there's the capacity....
I have more than one carbine chambered in 357 mag. A carbine does not have to be a semi auto.
What would the point of a .30 carbine be? What role would it fill? I would have no interest in one. It has inferior terminal ballistics to my 5.56, 300 Blk, 7.62x39 guns and ammo is more expensive and less readily available than 9x19 for my 9mm guns.
The last year we have seen a sure in PCC and in pistols intended to be SBRed. I would argue 9mm has become the new .22LR. I have acquired a few PCC recently. A .30 carbine gun wouldn't do any of the things I got those guns to do. With a 9x19 I can shoot suppresed sub sonics at reasonable price. It is a cheaper alternative to shooting some of my guns chambered in rifle cartridges.
I think you don't see them because they don't really offer anything that something else doesn't do better or cheaper, and they don't offer anything the market is looking for.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
The AMT Automag III was a .30 caliber carbine.
Almost bought one when they first came out, but I didn't like the way it fit my hand.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMT_AutoMag_III
Almost bought one when they first came out, but I didn't like the way it fit my hand.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMT_AutoMag_III
kBob
Member
Actually there were published on paper loads for subsonic .30 carbine using 150 grain bullets at one point, both lead and jacketed.
My understanding is this gave the idea for what became the .300 BLK BO or what the heck.
In the very way back as in OSS days there was a suppressed M-1 Carbine that was likely intended for such loads.
Oddly come the VN error (I know era but seems right) Sionics made (modified from GI) a suppressed M-1 carbine in 9x19mm that was straight pull as it was not intended to function semi auto.
Oh and despite all the war stories Marshal and Sanow rate FMJ .30 Carbine from M-1 carbines highly for one shot stops based on a bunch of real life shootings. Just to make some of you happy I should mention they also say the ones they looked at were 100 percent penetration regardless of bullet type.
-kBob
My understanding is this gave the idea for what became the .300 BLK BO or what the heck.
In the very way back as in OSS days there was a suppressed M-1 Carbine that was likely intended for such loads.
Oddly come the VN error (I know era but seems right) Sionics made (modified from GI) a suppressed M-1 carbine in 9x19mm that was straight pull as it was not intended to function semi auto.
Oh and despite all the war stories Marshal and Sanow rate FMJ .30 Carbine from M-1 carbines highly for one shot stops based on a bunch of real life shootings. Just to make some of you happy I should mention they also say the ones they looked at were 100 percent penetration regardless of bullet type.
-kBob
benEzra
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The most relevant comparison here is .223 guns to other guns, which your link shows well. If you look closely, you'll see that full NATO-spec 55gr M193 (one of the louder 5.56mm loads) out of a short-ish 14.5" barrel (louder than 16"+) is only a few dB louder than a 147gr 9mm (one of the quieter 9mm loads) out of a longish-barreled Glock 17 (quieter than a 3.5"-4" 9mm). So from your link, a 16" barrel AR will indeed be comparable to a 4" 9mm shooting typical defensive loads.
FWIW, measuring firearm noise depends greatly on distance. The table in the link was measured even with the muzzle and 1 meter to the side, whereas a measurement at the shooter's ear (behind the gun) will read a few dB lower.
As to jets, a jet at 50ft is way louder than a firearm at 50 feet (inverse-square law). Also, the sound field behind a jet is radiating from the exhaust stream for quite a ways behind the aircraft, whereas a firearm can be approximated as an asymmetric point source. So it's kind of apples and oranges to compare guns to aircraft, especially if not measured at the same distance.
Deaf Smith
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benEzra
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True. But equally true of a 4" 9mm or an 18.5" 12-gauge, which are similar in loudness to a 16"-18" unbraked .223. And none of which are nearly as loud as a .357 revolver, due to the very-high-pressure annular discharge from the barrel-cylinder gap of the latter. A 14.5" .223 is noticeably louder than a 16", but based on the chart link posted upthread, apparently not much louder.
Add a brake, of course, and you greatly increase dB/concussion and flash, so I'm speaking of unbraked barrels. Mine is a 16" with a Smith Vortex, and subjectively it is no louder than my 3.5" S&W 9mm (probably less loud if shooting +P in the 9mm).
My point is simply that if the concussion of a 16" to 18" unbraked .223 is too much for HD, then that also rules out 9mm pistols, 18.5" shotguns, and most centerfire revolvers. An M1 carbine might be a few dB less loud than a 9mm/12-gauge/.223, depending on gas pressure at muzzle exit, but I haven't seen the data. A 16" 9mm carbine with subsonics would be less loud than any of the above, but trades a lot of portability compared to the pistol and effectiveness compared to the long guns.
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barnbwt
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I swear, sometimes I really do wonder if the folks here actually shoot guns at all... "only a few dB louder" means that 223 is "only a few times as loud" as that 9mm
(that 9mm is already well beyond the pain/disorientation threshold, to say nothing of the permanent damage afterward --if that has no detrimental effect on a person's performance, SWAT would fire blanks into a room instead of flash-bangs)TCB
Sheepdog1968
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I'd be quite happy with an M1 carbine.
Pokajabba
member
My guess is because .30 Carbine really isn't a pistol round. It was developed to be used in a rifle and the PCC market today is wholly based off of a rifle that fires cartridges that are commonly used in a handgun.
There's only one .30 Carbine handgun I know of and that's the Ruger Blackhawk. So, .30 Carbine is obviously not used much in handguns.
Not saying it wouldn't be cool to see more .30 Carbine... well, carbines available. There's a large contingent of people that like the lower recoil and relatively low noise (compared to the 5.56 or 7.62) of it from a long gun.
There's only one .30 Carbine handgun I know of and that's the Ruger Blackhawk. So, .30 Carbine is obviously not used much in handguns.
Not saying it wouldn't be cool to see more .30 Carbine... well, carbines available. There's a large contingent of people that like the lower recoil and relatively low noise (compared to the 5.56 or 7.62) of it from a long gun.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Ummm, I own a 16" .223 with a Vortex, a 3.5" 9mm, and a 5" 9mm; yes, I do actually shoot them; and yes, I find the unbraked .223 no louder. A braked .223, on the other hand, is ridiculously loud, as is a full-house .357 in a S&W 686, which I've also shot, and I think the loudest guns I have ever had the displeasure of shooting next to on the line or in competition have been 14.5" AR's with aggressive brakes. As to concussion grenades, I dare say that they are likely to be a tad louder than shooting a firearm.
I also understand how the decibel scale works, and that radiated acoustic energy in W/m^2 or sound pressure transients in Pascals are absolutely *not* synonymous with loudness, due to the physiology of human hearing. Perceived loudness is logarithmic, not linear (Fechner's law) and the decibel scale is a very good approximation of it.
Believe what you wish, but if someone chooses a pistol, revolver, or shortish shotgun solely because they think it would be less blasty/disorienting than SAAMI .223 out of a civilian-length barrel with a good flash suppressor (not a brake or comp), then I believe they either overestimate the loudness of .223 or underestimate the loudness of other common defensive centerfires.
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Elkins45
Member
I'm quoting myself because this is the real reason the idea isn't more popular. If 50 BMG cost the same as 22LR and a Barrett cost the same as a 10/22 how many of you would opt for the Ruger as your next purchase? Ammo cost and availability drive the choices for guns people expect to shoot a lot.
Elkins45
Member
And we buy guns because they are practical? Humpfff...maybe the first few.
I already have a 22 auto loader. Now I want to hunt squirrels in Ohio while staying on this side of the river.
And you miss my point anyway. A 30 carbine is just as expensive (if not more) than other rifles filling essentially the same niche.
Archie
Member
The biggest, most important reason is 'market opinion' in the shooting community. Not enough folks want one.
As already pointed out, there are no handguns chambered in .30 Carbine which are in the same category of use as 9x19, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum or .45 ACP. (Yes, there are a couple - more if one looks at history - handguns in .30 Carbine, but they aren't suited for multi-gun shooting or competition. Or even carrying on a regular basis.)
As already pointed out, .30 Carbine - from a carbine length barrel - will penetrate and otherwise damage steel targets suited for 'handgun' rounds. So ALL the steel targets for a such a layout would have to be the more expensive, 'tougher' (forgive me, I don't know the actual metallurgical term) type steel.
As alluded to previously, .30 Carbine is just not 'cool'. For any number of reasons, .30 Carbine is dismissed by many shooters as simply not useful. (Probably the original reason was when surplussed out, carbines with FMJ rounds didn't kill deer and other medium game as well as 'hunting' calibers. Not to mention any number of anecdotal accounts of .30 Carbines failing to dispatch enemies in combat - and discounting the very successful use of the Carbine in other areas.) For some reason, 5.56mm caliber is perceived as 'better'. At the least, more desirable.
I find .30 Carbine to be a very useful short range defensive item. I have no illusions about dispatching the agents of unrighteousness at ranges of three hundred yards or more (but then I'm not over confident of 5.56mm at those ranges, either).
The bottom line is, no manufacturer is convinced a .30 Caliber carbine chambered much of anything will sell enough to bother developing and manufacturing one. That's how capitalism works.
As already pointed out, there are no handguns chambered in .30 Carbine which are in the same category of use as 9x19, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum or .45 ACP. (Yes, there are a couple - more if one looks at history - handguns in .30 Carbine, but they aren't suited for multi-gun shooting or competition. Or even carrying on a regular basis.)
As already pointed out, .30 Carbine - from a carbine length barrel - will penetrate and otherwise damage steel targets suited for 'handgun' rounds. So ALL the steel targets for a such a layout would have to be the more expensive, 'tougher' (forgive me, I don't know the actual metallurgical term) type steel.
As alluded to previously, .30 Carbine is just not 'cool'. For any number of reasons, .30 Carbine is dismissed by many shooters as simply not useful. (Probably the original reason was when surplussed out, carbines with FMJ rounds didn't kill deer and other medium game as well as 'hunting' calibers. Not to mention any number of anecdotal accounts of .30 Carbines failing to dispatch enemies in combat - and discounting the very successful use of the Carbine in other areas.) For some reason, 5.56mm caliber is perceived as 'better'. At the least, more desirable.
I find .30 Carbine to be a very useful short range defensive item. I have no illusions about dispatching the agents of unrighteousness at ranges of three hundred yards or more (but then I'm not over confident of 5.56mm at those ranges, either).
The bottom line is, no manufacturer is convinced a .30 Caliber carbine chambered much of anything will sell enough to bother developing and manufacturing one. That's how capitalism works.
barnbwt
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"And we buy guns because they are practical? Humpfff...maybe the first few."
Point taken. Were a BMG the same cost as a 22LR, I'd have at least one BMG --I'd shoot the 22LR a whole lot more, for a ton of reasons, though
"I also understand how the decibel scale works, and that radiated acoustic energy in W/m^2 or sound pressure transients in Pascals are absolutely *not* synonymous with loudness, due to the physiology of human hearing. Perceived loudness is logarithmic, not linear (Fechner's law) and the decibel scale is a very good approximation of it."
Since all guns are well beyond the human hearing limit, well into the "pain" threshold area, I don't believe, based on my limited experience in damaging my own hearing, that the logarithmic scale defining volume holds at all. At these levels, we're beyond what our sensory can detect, and at that point all additional energy is going directly into 'breaking stuff,' and generally causing havoc. IIRC, hearing damage actually accumulates exponentially past the damage threshold, as I suspect do also the pain/disorientation. The reason that braked AR is so loud, is because you are getting the full experience of the muzzle blast, rather than being shielded from a portion of it by the barrel profile. Fire inside an enclosed room such as you'd find in a domicile, where your barrel is <10ft from any wall, and the difference in volume between braked/unbraked starts becoming moot. I've shot a handgun indoors before and experienced just how loud they are, and I've fired rifles with plugs/muffs through gaps in close baffles --maybe not a whole order of magnitude difference between them, but perhaps three times as much concussion from the long gun, which roughly aligns with how much more powerful a 223 is than a 5.7x28 (you want a loud handgun, that's a loud handgun!)
"The biggest, most important reason is 'market opinion' in the shooting community. Not enough folks want one."
Seeing as how cheap, plentiful Korean M1 Carbine 30 rounders are around (can't for the life of me understand why, for the reasons espoused in this thread), and seeing as how Blackout is all uber popular, and seeing how people are crazy about pint-sized PDWs and subsonic silenced platforms, and are always looking for reduced recoil...
-AR15 pattern rifle with M1 Carbine mag adapter or magwell (ideally shortened)
-DI gas system, short carbine length
-223 brass cut down for 30cal bullets, loaded subsonic (I'm guessing 180gr or so, proportionally lighter than Blackout subs for the reduced case/powder volume)
-Large volume 30 cal silencer on SBR upper
-Overall lighter/smaller build, made practical by shorter mag & BCG travel length, as well as reduced recoil
Sounds like you'd have something that basically does Blackout's job, but with recoil more like that of a 22 caliber bullet. From what little I know of Blackout, you might even be able to match it ballistically for subsonics and not exceed allowable pressures (not much powder under those heavy pills, I understand)
TCB
Point taken. Were a BMG the same cost as a 22LR, I'd have at least one BMG --I'd shoot the 22LR a whole lot more, for a ton of reasons, though
"I also understand how the decibel scale works, and that radiated acoustic energy in W/m^2 or sound pressure transients in Pascals are absolutely *not* synonymous with loudness, due to the physiology of human hearing. Perceived loudness is logarithmic, not linear (Fechner's law) and the decibel scale is a very good approximation of it."
Since all guns are well beyond the human hearing limit, well into the "pain" threshold area, I don't believe, based on my limited experience in damaging my own hearing, that the logarithmic scale defining volume holds at all. At these levels, we're beyond what our sensory can detect, and at that point all additional energy is going directly into 'breaking stuff,' and generally causing havoc. IIRC, hearing damage actually accumulates exponentially past the damage threshold, as I suspect do also the pain/disorientation. The reason that braked AR is so loud, is because you are getting the full experience of the muzzle blast, rather than being shielded from a portion of it by the barrel profile. Fire inside an enclosed room such as you'd find in a domicile, where your barrel is <10ft from any wall, and the difference in volume between braked/unbraked starts becoming moot. I've shot a handgun indoors before and experienced just how loud they are, and I've fired rifles with plugs/muffs through gaps in close baffles --maybe not a whole order of magnitude difference between them, but perhaps three times as much concussion from the long gun, which roughly aligns with how much more powerful a 223 is than a 5.7x28 (you want a loud handgun, that's a loud handgun!)
"The biggest, most important reason is 'market opinion' in the shooting community. Not enough folks want one."
Seeing as how cheap, plentiful Korean M1 Carbine 30 rounders are around (can't for the life of me understand why, for the reasons espoused in this thread), and seeing as how Blackout is all uber popular, and seeing how people are crazy about pint-sized PDWs and subsonic silenced platforms, and are always looking for reduced recoil...
-AR15 pattern rifle with M1 Carbine mag adapter or magwell (ideally shortened)
-DI gas system, short carbine length
-223 brass cut down for 30cal bullets, loaded subsonic (I'm guessing 180gr or so, proportionally lighter than Blackout subs for the reduced case/powder volume)
-Large volume 30 cal silencer on SBR upper
-Overall lighter/smaller build, made practical by shorter mag & BCG travel length, as well as reduced recoil
Sounds like you'd have something that basically does Blackout's job, but with recoil more like that of a 22 caliber bullet. From what little I know of Blackout, you might even be able to match it ballistically for subsonics and not exceed allowable pressures (not much powder under those heavy pills, I understand)
TCB
lysanderxiii
Member
The US only produced two pistols in "musket" caliber (.69 caliber), the Model of 1799 and the Model of 1813, neither were very popular and although in "musket" caliber they did not use musket cartridges, they used 40 grains vice the 130 grains used in the muskets.
The British did not issue any musket caliber pistols, pistols were standardized at .62 caliber, carbines .65, and muskets .69 or .75 caliber. The exceptions being the rifles which were initially .75 caliber, then reduced to .65 caliber, with two different ball sizes issued, patched ball that fit tightly in the .65 caliber bore, and pistol caliber balls in paper cartridges, for use in the line as a musket.
The French (and French influenced nations) were about the only nation to use the same caliber balls in pistols, carbines and muskets. But again, all used different power charges, making them, technically, different cartridges. After all, no one considers a .38 Special the same as a .350 Remington Magnum, even though the use the same diameter bullet...
As much as I love variety in the firearm world, I have to agree with another poster in saying that the .30 carbine round works only when paired with the m1 carbine rifle. In fact, it works perfectly but otherwise doesn't make any sense. The carbine remains one of the lightest and handiest long-arms (though new AR dev are closing or beating that gap) and it is that way because of the relative weakness of the round compared to rifles. Try to put the .30 carbine round in any other platform and it doesn't make sense because it doesn't do anything better. Personally I have a hard time getting super excited about many of the 9mm carbines that are available because most seem larger than necessary when I could just get a .30 carbine, but that's just a design failure. Try and make the m1 carbine more powerful, and it turns into the mini14. It's a weird little niche where it still holds some advantage in its intended configuration, but just doesn't fit anywhere else in a logical sense, especially when taking into account real world ammo availability and price.
CoalTrain49
Member
Well, everyone knows the M1 carbine wasn't a serious military rifle to begin with.
I bought a USGI M1 carbine to fill this role. I consider it more of a PCC, but with more range than 9MM, 40, or 45.
Snowdog
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barnbwt said:
A 40+ round PS90 in .30 carbine? I'd slap down $1500 for that in a heartbeat!
I fear the round would overtax the existing blowback system of the P90. If they can incorporate a tappet or some other short stroke system that doesn't add bulk, it would certainly sell.
I, for one, have lost some patience with the ignorance surrounding the .30 Carbine cartridge. I understand it's human nature to repeat what is heard in order to lend oneself credibility through perceived knowledge, but the aping has got to stop.
The .30 Carbine IS anemic... when compared to a .30-06 Springfield cartridge from the M1 Garand, just a .44 Remington Magnum is anemic when compared to hunting rifle cartridges.
To put thing in perspective, would anyone sound knowledgeable saying the .44 Remington Magnum from a revolver is an anemic cartridge?
Anyway, when compared to service handgun cartridges from an SBR or carbine-length barrel, there's no denying the .30 carbine round is an organ shredding beast with modern SP, JSP and copper HPs.
I love the M1 Carbine, but I would like to see other platforms offered for the svelte .30 carbine round to offer us options that possess higher-than-average magazine capacities (IE 40 - 50 rounds). Just to have, of course.
Pistol caliber carbines are hot. As fast as Hi-Points are advertised, they sell out. The keltec sub 2000 is impossible to find. I just bought a 995ts and love it. I have two .30 carbines that I love as well, but 9mm ammo is less than half the cost. 100 yard shots with the 9mm carbine are easy, with a 9mm pistol, almost impossible to get an effective hit.
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