Newbie Looking for advice to create light target loads

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jrehfuss

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Hi, I'm using BE-86 with Berrys 115g Flat Point plated bullets, 1.060 OAL, light crimp just to remove the flare, Gun is a 9mm PPQ M2.

I Started with a 5.8 load, (max is 6.1) and it seemed very hot, dropped it to a 5.5 load and it still seems hot. How low can I safely go?

I'm just punching holes in paper.

To create less felt recoil is it better to use less powder, or a slower burning powder, or a different bullet weight ?
 
To create less felt recoil is it better to use less powder, or a slower burning powder, or a different bullet weight ?

Generally speaking, light charges of fast powder will produce loads with less recoil for a given bullet weight.

Lighter bullets will have less felt recoil than heavier bullets.

But having said that, the most common bullet for target paper punching with 38 Special guns is a 148 grain wadcutter.

Loading for a semi-auto handgun, there will be a minimum load that will cycle the gun so there is a lower limit as to what you can load and still get the gun cycle.

Good, reliable data sources are your friends. Minimum published loads are good to not go below. Depending on the load, powder and bullet used, there are many problems that can develop that can cause problems and headaches with the firearm. Stuck bullets in the barrel are a common problem with light loads that are too light.

Hope this helps.
 
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To create less felt recoil is it better to use less powder, or a slower burning powder, or a different bullet weight ?

Theoretically, all of the above.

If you use less powder, you impart less energy to the bullet and by Newton's law (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) that means the recoil will be less.

If you use a "slower" powder, the energy is imparted to the bullet over a "longer" period of time and should result in less perception of recoil. The reason I put "slower" and "longer" in quotes is that as a practical matter, any powder fast enough to operate a 9mm pistol's action is going to be "fast" enough that you probably won't notice and difference between the "fast" and "slow" powders. That said, I do have a neurological impairment so those who are more sensitive may correct me on this.

The energy imparted to the bullet is 1/2 mass (of the bullet) times the velocity squared. Less mass at the same velocity would result in less energy thus less recoil. But, a lighter bullet is more easily launched out of the case and down the barrel on its journey to the target, so the recoil may come sooner and be more readily perceived than if you use a heavier bullet that will be more "lethargic".

Bottom line is that you will need to experiment with different bullet weights and loadings (I don't believe with 9mm that different powder burn rates will make much of a difference) to see what works best for you and the gun you are shooting your reloads in.
 
I have not had much luck finding minimum loads listed for BE-86

I'm think I'm going to load 10 rounds at 5gr, 4.7, 4.3, and 4.
Then, at the range I'll start at 5 and work my way down till I start having cycling issues to find my low end. Of course, l will make sure there are no stuck bullets in the barrel. Does this make sense?
 
If you're not wedded to the 115gr bullet weight, I've found that the 124gr RMR plated bullet felt a lot less snappy.

My IDPA load was the RMR 124gr FN over 4.7grs of BE-86 ignited by a CCI SPP...but then I was loading out to 1.114" OAL. Out of my S&W M&P9's 4.4" barrel, this was giving me about 1050FPS and very reliable function. I'd gone down to 4.2grs and retained good function
 
Several points:
1. No, you do not want a SLOWER powder. See this article and accompanying measurements. http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/measure-relative-handgun-recoil/ (Go with a small-charge weight faster powder.)

2. Light-for-caliber bullets often have a higher perceived recoil, in part because of blast/flash. Try to be mindful of whether it's the actual gun movement or the slap/crack of the gun going off that makes them feel "hot" to you.

3. CAUTION: PROCEED AT YOUR OWN RISK

Minimums are a misunderstood thing in handgun rounds. Yes, some powders - mostly slow, hard-to-ignite, ball-shaped magnum powders like H110 - are very sensitive to reduction and really cannot be downloaded and still get reliable ignition. But a great many pistol powders can be downloaded a long way and still work very well.

Most loading manuals do NOT list a minimum charge. They list a STARTING charge, which most simply calculate as 10% less than the maximum. This is not the same thing as saying that reductions below that level are unsafe or will not function. Just as one can work up from a start load, one can work down.

Now, in large volume cases, the position sensitivity of the powder comes into play - i.e., does a small charge of fast powder behave differently at ignition when it is at one end or the other of the cavernous .45 Colt case? But you're talking about 9mm, a compact case without a great deal of room for powder to move around. (You might get slightly different chrono results based on powder position, but one would not expect big differences or wacky results.)

A few years ago, I played around a bit with low loadings with 9mm. Using a M&P 9mm, with a few different powders and 115 and 124 bullets, I found that the lower limit of loading was reached in every instance FOR ME by the recoil being insufficient to reliably cycle the gun. IOW, during my progression down the load weight ladder, before I reached the point of sticking a bullet in the barrel, or before any rounds ever failed to ignite, or any other failure mode, the gun didn't completely cycle.

Now, I wasn't using BE-86, and I've never used that powder. I know of nothing special about it that would lead me to expect wildly different results, but, as I said, I've never used it. Maybe there's some quirk to it.

Final note: if you're nervous that a load below the starting load is an "unpublished" load, and you only want to stick with loads that have the apparent blessing of a manual, get a Hornady manual. If the current version is like my slightly-older edition, you will find two things in their pistol loads: 1. they often have slightly lower maxes than other publishers (probably due to bullet geometry, thus proving that when working in the MAX range, bullet substitution can make a big difference) and 2. they list loads less than max-minus-10% for a good many powder/bullet combinations. (FWIW, I suspect their lower loads and projected velocities are just downwards extrapolations of their max data in many cases - but it IS data in a book.)

As with any reloading endeavor, proceed with caution and at your own risk. If you want to plumb the lower depths of workable charge weights, be sure to check the target for a hole on every shot to make sure you don't have a squib or stuck bullet. Look at your cases; if you see extreme sootiness on the outside of them, you may not want to continue, as you're not getting a good seal between the brass and chamber walls (due to insufficient pressure). Expect that almost all powders will run dirtier at very low loadings, and you may need to clean more frequently.
 
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Thank you all, I have a lot to try now. I'll get to the range over the weekend and let you know how I did.
 
I use BE-86 with 9mm 124/125 gr. bullets
Chrono results from Beretta 92;

125Gr Missouri Cone (coated) 4.6gr - FPS Avg. = 1050
124Gr Hornady FMJ 5.0 - FPS Avg. = 1080

These are accurate loads with light recoil for indoor target shooting. You might have to add a few grains for the 115gr bullets.
 
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"...minimum loads listed for BE-86..." Alliant's site and reduce by 10%. Mind you, their site doesn't list cast 115's.
Who made the thing doesn't matter. There is some cast 115 data on Handloads.com, but not with BE86. That appears to be best for jacketed bullets.
Partial to cast 121 grain TC's with Bullseye myself. Doesn't get much lighter. Mind you, my pistol is a W.W. II vintage Inglis BHP(all of 'em were made in 1944 and '45) and isn't up to fabulous accuracy so I've never bother working up a load too seriously.
 
For a "light" load with BE86 my 9mm 1911 5" functioned fine with 4.3gr BE86 and a RMR 124 FN
String: 5
Date: 7/23/2016
Time: 9:30:43 AM
Grains: 124
Hi Vel: 1003
Low Vel: 957
Ave Vel: 974
Ext Spread: 46
Std Dev: 18
RMR 124 FN 4.3 BE86 1.09 OAL
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
957 118.668 252.143
960 119.04 253.726
983 121.892 266.03
1003 124.372 276.965
969 120.156 258.506

Here are some results with a 115. You could probably drop down to 4.7 or 5gr and still get proper function.

String: 4
Date: 10/9/2016
Time: 10:40:15 AM
Grains: 115
Hi Vel: 1141
Low Vel: 1055
Ave Vel: 1094
Ext Spread: 86
Std Dev: 32
Xtremne 115 5.2 BE86 1.14
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1111 127.765 315.157
1141 131.215 332.407
1077 123.855 296.163
1055 121.325 284.187
1089 125.235 302.8

Mixed range brass, charges as thrown by Lee Pro disk.

The charges are shown are less than the computed start from Alliant (listed MAX-10%) use at your own risk.

If your after really light loads you can go with 100gr bullet and light charges.
This load functioned fine in my pistol but was on the edge of not functining.
String: 3
Date: 7/23/2016
Time: 8:26:15 AM
Grains: 100
Hi Vel: 1058
Low Vel: 990
Ave Vel: 1024
Ext Spread: 68
Std Dev: 25
Xtreme 100 4.3 WSF 1.045 OAl
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
1058 105.8 248.527
1040 104 240.142
1022 102.2 231.901
1013 101.3 227.835
990 99 217.607
(very soft shooting)
 
One thing to keep in mind, in my experience, the most accurate 9mm loads are around 3/4 of the way between min and max charge. If you want to down load to decrease the recoil, you're probably giving up some accuracy.

Try some lead 147s. it hardly takes any powder to get them out, therefore less recoil.
 
Do your own testing. There is no 'magic load' for 9mm. Your gun will tell you.

In many instances, those really light loads (like 50% to 80% of max load)
are not very accurate and don't cycle an autoloader unless you lighten
the recoil spring. Most of us use really light recoil springs when we find
a really really light load but it doesn't cycle a stock spring.

So your task is to reduce the charge looking for function and accuracy,
but give up when you lose either one.

Note about squibs: In various tests and the personal experience of many,
handguns get a stuck bullet only when the powder charge is incredibly small.
Like 1.0 to 1.5 grains. If you go down to the light charges discussed by
our brothers above, you're in good safe territory. Just bear in mind
that lower charges may have little recoil but also little accuracy.


Interesting factoid: Usually a small powder charges reduce recoil
because of the smaller 'jet' effect of hot gas out the muzzle
after the bullet leaves the gun. Go look it up.

Another factoid: Not a matter of recoil, but controlling the gun in recoil
can sometimes be enhanced by a minimum charge of very fast powder
with a heavy-for-caliber bullet. Many USPSA/IPSC/IDPA shooters use that.
Recoil is modest, with the ability to get the gun back on target quickly.
It doesn't work for everyone (it also depends upon the gun) but it works for many.
 
ants said:
Another factoid: Not a matter of recoil, but controlling the gun in recoil
can sometimes be enhanced by a minimum charge of very fast powder
with a heavy-for-caliber bullet. Many USPSA/IPSC/IDPA shooters use that.
Recoil is modest, with the ability to get the gun back on target quickly.
It doesn't work for everyone (it also depends upon the gun) but it works for many.

I agree.

Even in a stock Glock 17 a lot of IDPA shooters around here would use something like a plated 147g RN with a faster powder (ex. Titegroup) with a charge approx. 3.2grains and a coal around 1.18 ish (this is an example not something for you to use on your gun follow published instructions, proceed at your own risk). The gun might cycle at lets say 2.8g but you want a buffer and tune for optimal accuracy and make power factor. This kind of load will make it easier to get back on target for follow-up shots.

Just my casual observance I would say there are more competition shooters using powders faster than BE-86 with heavier bullets (147-160g) than powders such as BE-86 (or PP, CFE pistol, autocomp) and lighter bullets (115-124g). But some use this kind of load. This is the beauty of being a handloader, we get to experiment with all kinds of materials to find what works best for us. A slow powder needs (in general) a heavier charge to completely burn in a short barrel. I shoot in a steel league and you can tell just from the loud sound of the bang who is using factory ammo.

Browse around on youtube and find vids of competition shooters. Notice how there is little recoil/muzzle flip when they fire. Regardless if it is a push or snap you want to get back on target quickly but have successfully ejected the empty and placed a loaded round fully into battery.
 
Here are some 147s loaded wirh mid - mid slow 9mm powders
5" 9mm 191
Mixed range brass, chargers as thronw by Lee Pro Disk

Date: 2/28/2016
Time: 9:39:46 AM
Grains: 147
Hi Vel: 915
Low Vel: 858
Ave Vel: 894
Ext Spread: 57
Std Dev: 22
RMR 147 Target HP 1.10 OAL 3.7 WSf
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
890 130.83 258.523
858 126.126 240.267
911 133.917 270.867
915 134.505 273.251
896 131.712 262.02
String: 3
Date: 2/28/2016
Time: 9:41:12 AM
Grains: 147
Hi Vel: 942
Low Vel: 908
Ave Vel: 920
Ext Spread: 34
Std Dev: 13
RMR 147 Target HP 1.10 OAL 4.0 WSF
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
922 135.534 277.447
908 133.476 269.086
942 138.474 289.615
913 134.211 272.057
918 134.946 275.045
String: 1
Date: 2/28/2016
Time: 7:55:18 AM
Grains: 147
Hi Vel: 872
Low Vel: 831
Ave Vel: 847
Ext Spread: 41
Std Dev: 15
RMR 147 3.7 CFE-P
Velocity Power Factor Ft/Lbs
868 127.596 245.9
847 124.509 234.145
831 122.157 225.383
843 123.921 231.939
872 128.184 248.172
850 124.95 235.807
831 122.157 225.383
839 123.333 229.743

I happened to prefer the med.slow powbers with the 14607s over fdaster opowders, more push less snap, BE86 is about the same burn spee as Wsf
si 3,7 gr of BE86 would be a good starting point with a 147

if you would like PM me and I can send you a couple 9mm bullets to try before you buy. I have some 100s, 124, and 147
as a PIF.
 
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To 9mmepiphany -- I tried your recommendation using a Berrys 9mm copper plated 124g FP, 4.7 BE-86, only had Winchester SPP, 1.111 OAL it was perfect - fairly soft and accutate, Thanks
 
I also tested the following and liked them all

Rainer 9mm 147g Copper Plated HP , 4.3g BE-86, WSP primer, and OAL 1.100

Berry's 9mm 124g Copper Plated FP, 231 powder @ 4.0, OAL 1.100

Thanks for all the suggestions.
 
Hi Dudedog, I'm on the Rocky Mountain Reloading site but can't find any RMR 147 Target HP . I only see 147 Gr. RMR Hardcore Match Round Nose or 9mm 147 Grain TCFP Rocky Mountain ThunderCast

Is it one of these?
 
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