NFA Trust.....worth it?

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Ric

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I'm thinking about getting a suppressor for my AR and maybe a short barrel 300 Blackout.
I hear a lot about getting an NFA Trust first and listing my wife and family in the trust so that they can be protected if they use it or if I died to keep them from being in violation and saving them from paying the tax for them.
Also I can apply for the class II without going to the local LEO for approval.

Does anybody have a Trust set up and how is it working for you?
Can you buy numerous cans or SBR without paying the tax or do you have to apply each time?

I read a lot of "legalese" about the Trust but not a lot of layman language about how it works and what it does for you?
 
I personally think trusts are the way to go if you fall into either of these 2 situations:

1)You have a CLEO that won't sign the forms for you.

2)You want more than you to be able to have the items in their possession.



Those are really the situations where a trust comes in handy. Trusts do NOT avoid paying less for tax stamps or being able to buy things without a tax stamp. If you die the items transfer to your heirs tax free anyway. I don't use them because I've never run into the cases above, but I have a son who is 16 and when he is older I will probably wish I had done these on a trust so he could take them to the range without me around.
 
Ric, you don't really list too many reasons for 'going the trust route', but having your wife/family members as trustees would be beneficial if they were to possess the item outside of your presence.

Trusts are not magical things. Mine works for me. Between me and a few other members here, there is definitely plenty of layman discussion about trusts. All you would ever need in fact. We are not lawyers though, and it is not legal advice in any way, shape or form. Keep researching; maybe it's for you, maybe it isn't.

TR covered your questions. Each and every NFA item you acquire, you'll have to apply for via the applicable ATF form, and yes, pay for a $200 tax stamp each time (excluding the $5 stamp for AOW's).

hth
 
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TR and CRM are offering good answers. I have looked at a trust for two reasons: (1) I don't have to send in fingerprint cards (which may be rejected by the FBI) and photos with the forms, and (2) I can allow others to be 'trustees' and have access to my NFA stuff without prejudice. CLEO sign-off is not an issue for me other than having to drive to the office to drop off/pick up the paperwork as necessary.

Transferring NFA to heirs is tax free, but there are apparently some wholly obscure legalistic issues with how and when they take possession. Not being a lawyer, I will have to do a lot more research before I can figure that part out for sure. If it appears to be yet another good reason to have a trust set up, that will be my approach.
 
You can dig up some of what I wrote regarding this. I got mine, and it is a nice thing to have. You will still have to pay the tax fees, but you don't do pictures, prints, beg for signatures, etc. Your family can be protected as well as friends (and yourself if say you load it out to one of them and it turns out they are felons and get caught with it).

I got the trust to make NFA purchases easier, but when I met with the lawyer and he explained everything about it, I realized this was something I needed without NFA items. It does quite a lot, basically full estate planning for NFA items (and the price we paid goes toward a full estate plan, so when we do that we get the NFA portion for free essentially). I won't go into details, too numerous, but I will say that if you plan on purchasing one or more NFA items you need to go at least talk to an NFA lawyer.

If you can't find one locally (some CIII dealers will point you in the right direction) or you can call around, and finally you can contact Goldberg or Goldman or whatever in FL. He is the guy that basically got all this started in the US and has lawyers that do his documents all over. If you can find a local lawyer well versed in NFA rules, a gun nut lawer in estate law, that is best. That is what I got.

Finally, go look for "Gundocx Trust Portfolio". Seach for it. This is the template and document I have and is kind of popular. Try to find a good lawyer in your area that uses this template and you can't go wrong.

Stay away from internet trusts, gunshop trusts, etc. ATF has already ruled some of them invalid, and since they make no mistakes, of course the poor owner was charged with possession of illegal NFA items. Don't be that guy, get a good trust. One done by a lawyer with you sitting across the table. $500 got us ours, but we could have gotten if for half that, but ours does a little more (my wife is an exectuor and I can actually loan out suppressors to other folks! --not excited about that, but nice to know I can do it legally).

Bottom line is that knowing what I know now, I wouldn't bother with NFA items without the trust. I wouldn't go the LLC route either, it costs more and requires more upkeep and hassle. Go with the trust. Good luck!
 
ATF has already ruled some of them invalid, and since they make no mistakes, of course the poor owner was charged with possession of illegal NFA items.

While I have heard of some problems with trusts, I never heard of anyone losing a firearm or facing charges because the ATF decided later on that the trust was invalid.

Got a link or case number for us?

Rand
 
You are all over the place here in terms of being mis-informed.

Forming a trust to "protect your wife and family" in the event of your death is not an issue. There are extensive discussions on this very topic and the whole YOU NEED TO FORM A TRUST TO PROTECT YOUR FAMILY FROM UNREGISTERED POSSESSION is being ill informed at best and fearmongering at worst. Administrators of estates have latitude in handling NFA regilated items. Also - you aren't saving anything from a tax perspective.

If you died, a Form 5 would be done as a tax free transfer to lawful heir whether it came from a trust or not.

Also - There is NO SUCH THING AS CLASS 2 license, nor is there such thing as a CLASS 3 license. They do not exist.

I have a trust setup - but that was because it was easiest at the time in my area. Now, if I were to buy an NFA regulated device I would go see my local CLEO and it would be easy.

I'm thinking about getting a suppressor for my AR and maybe a short barrel 300 Blackout.
I hear a lot about getting an NFA Trust first and listing my wife and family in the trust so that they can be protected if they use it or if I died to keep them from being in violation and saving them from paying the tax for them.
Also I can apply for the class II without going to the local LEO for approval.

Does anybody have a Trust set up and how is it working for you?
Can you buy numerous cans or SBR without paying the tax or do you have to apply each time?

I read a lot of "legalese" about the Trust but not a lot of layman language about how it works and what it does for you?
 
Thanks for the good information. I think I'll check with this guy in Fl and see who he works with around here and have a sit down
 
Without a trust, if you die your NFA item immediately becomes contraband.

Without a trust your wife can't have the combination to the gun safe with an NFA item in it.

A trust is ABSOLUTELY the way to go.

Do NOT use an NFA trust for other items.

Real property and the like should be in their own. After all, if the Feds look into your NFA trust that is all that is there. No complicated issues.
 
WHAT??? Without a trust, if you die your NFA item immediately becomes contraband. Where in the world did you hear this? It's 100% WRONG! When you die, your NFA items that are registered in your name are still completely and totally legal. They should be handed over to the executor of your estate who will apply to BATFE to transfer them tax-free to your declared heir, or he can sell them if your heir is not named or doesn't want them. They should NOT be given to a dealer for sale.

In no way are they contraband. This is so wrong .
 
Medalguy,

a suppressor, for example, cannot be possessed by anyone other than the designated NFA owner.

If you are that person and you die...
 
What is a NON NFA person? For that matter what is an NFA PERSON? Never heard of that term. Got a legal citation to that term?

For the record, and that's what matters, law and the record, following the death of a registered owner, the EXECUTOR should take custody and control of the weapons in the estate and arrange transfer of the firearms.

Here is a link to an open letter from BATFE regarding this subject:

http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/1999/09/090599-openletter-nfa-estate-transfers.html
 
so you are saying that my wife uses my AOW to dispatch a burglar while I am out of town and she spends years in Federal prison...but if I am dead she can keep it and use it however she wants if she is my executor?
 
medalguy...thanks for the link

apparently even though it is not within the letter of the law, the BATF allows the heir a "reasonable amount of time" (whatever that is) to get the items legal.


I stand corrected
 
I'm not saying anything. The law says if your wife takes your AOW which is registered to you, she is illegally in possession of a Title II weapon, a clear violation.

If you die, she may be the executor of your estate. In this capacity, she should take possession and control of any registered weapons in your estate for purposes of transfer and disposal. This does NOT allow her to use any of the weapons for any purpose. The law is very clear on this subject.
 
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get the items legal

One point: The weapons are legal now if they are registered. They are illegal if not registered. If you die, any unregistered weapons cannot be made legal, i.e., they cannot be registered after the fact.

All the executor is allowed to do is arrange for the transfer of the weapons. The executor cannot make any illegal weapons legal. I'm sure that's not what you meant.

This is a subject that is often misunderstood by many people and BATF does not offer a lot of guidance in the procedure. I'm familiar with it because as a SOT I assisted in transfers of a number of Title II weapons in estates.
 
Without a trust, if you die your NFA item immediately becomes contraband.

Without a trust your wife can't have the combination to the gun safe with an NFA item in it.

A trust is ABSOLUTELY the way to go.

Do NOT use an NFA trust for other items.

Real property and the like should be in their own. After all, if the Feds look into your NFA trust that is all that is there. No complicated issues.

You need to stop listening to the internet. Everything you wrote there is wrong.
 
guess my attorney at Texas Law Shield doesn't know the law.

DAMN IT!!!

I will fire him tomorrow on your recommendation.

Thank you for saving me from him
While you are at it - make sure he carries malpractice insurance just in case.

Seriously - there's a lot of bad info there.
 
Sounds like the attorney is trying to sell trusts. :scrutiny:
I can agree with your statement. I had such a problem with a law firm advertisement sent to my business that I reported it to the Florida Bar. It went along the lines of IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A TRUST - YOU WILL GO TO JAIL AND LOSE *ALL* OF YOUR GUNS!

The worst part? Even though it was wrong and fearmongering in nature - the FL bar had approved the advertisement.
 
The term 'transfer' doesn't appear to be loose enough to suggest that, your wife MERELY knowing how to get a hold of your -individually owned- silencer, is an illegal transfer.
http://trac.syr.edu/laws/26/26USC05845.html
(j) Transfer
The term "transfer" and the various derivatives of such word,
shall include selling, assigning, pledging, leasing, loaning,
giving away, or otherwise disposing of.
There's a reason why it is referred to as 'renting a machine gun' as opposed to 'leasing a machine gun'.
 
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I'm not sure how many of you are lawyers or understand legalese, but I have an opinion on why I think the executor is not in violation of the federal law.

It's because being an executor of an estate is like being a trustee of a trust.

A trust is a legal entity that owns things, and if you're a trustee, you can possess those things legally. That's why trusts are great--there can be more than one trustee, so your wife can take your suppressor to the range, and if you die, she doesn't even have to arrange for the Form 5 transfer. That can wait until after she dies.

Likewise, an "estate" is a legal entity that is basically how you, as a person, continue to legally exist for a while after you die. If you die, lawyers refer to your "estate" as owning the things that you used to own. Your executor is the person who manages your estate (and winds things up, gives them away according to your will, etc). So since your estate is you, it can legally own the NFA firearms that you legally owned while you were alive. Since your executor of your estate is legally very similar to a trustee of a trust, they can physically be in possession of the NFA items as long as the estate exists without violating federal law.

The difference between a trust and an estate is that estates exist to be "wrapped up." Once you die, your "estate" only exists long enough for your executor to guide things through probate and give all your stuff away according to your wishes. During that process, if you have NFA items, the executor will transfer them on a Form 5 to whoever you left them to. Once that's done, the executor physically gives them to the new owner and can no longer possess them. And then the estate ceases to exist.

Bear in mind that this isn't the ATF's official explanation, but, as an attorney, it is my legal analysis of the situation and why you're not illegally in possession as the executor. Don't take it as legal advice, because I'm not your attorney.

With all that said, trusts are still useful as estate planning devices because they allow property to pass outside of probate. If you don't have a trust, then your executor has to do a Form 5, but the probate court is generally involved in making sure that your will and estate are being properly disposed of according to your wishes. With a trust, you'll still need to pass the NFA item along via a Form 5, but the probate court doesn't have to get involved at all.

The same is true for ALL trusts and estates--not just NFA ones. NFA trusts are just trusts that are slightly tweaked to give you additional benefits vis-a-vis NFA items. When it comes to the way normal trusts work, they aren't any different in how property passes on.

I hope that all makes sense to people. There are benefits to trusts, but not everyone needs one, and you can safely own NFA items without one.

Aaron
 
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