NICs check being recorded as a form of registration?

[misANTHrope]

Let's not forget that just because there was a NICS check, doesn't mean that a sale actually happened. This is particularly true in cases where people get delayed. I'd hazard a guess that 75% of the folks I got a delay for never came back, even though 99.9% of them got approved.

And so long as private sales remain legal, everyone has a ready-made excuse: I sold it. Nope, didn't get his name.

 

[Cannonball888]

Let's not forget that just because there was a NICS check, doesn't mean that a sale actually happened.

Let's not forget that the attempted purchase would still put you on a list of suspected gun owners if such a list was being compiled. My original point was that such a list would be used for focused property searches by a totalitarian government, not about knocking on your door asking if you have a particular gun and taking you at your word and going away.

 

[everallm]

So your scenario is that in an as yet determined date, the government has changed to a totalitarian state, secretly and without anyone being aware of it and taking appropriate actions.

This government has pulled every NICS check for the last 20 years, which is minimally useful as it only says someone has applied for a firearm not actually purchased one, not the actual weapon, not the serial number etc.

It then has, in secret and without any information leaking out, gone to every FFL on that NICS check master list and pulled all the archived forms, invoices and bills of sale. From this is creates a master sales list

It then has matched actual sold firearms to an actual individual in their current address, not the one from 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago to create a master list of suspect homes.

At a predetermined moment, simultaneously and without any information leaking, the government will have set up strike teams outside every suspected home in the USA.

Lets assume, for the sake of argument, that there are 10- 20 million households on the list.

We assume that each individual strike team has a minimum of 6 members, 2 cover front, 2 cover back and 2 entry.

Doesn't really work does it......?

 

[waterhouse]

Having seen the "voluntary" federal registration system first hand, I can tell you that any firearm transaction that goes through NICS is recorded in some sort of way. I have seen the result of such a system in the form of a spreadsheet that showed all of the firearms with serial numbers that an individual purchased over the course of two years at multiple locations. How they (the ATF) assembled that information is neither here nor there. The fact was they were able to get it quickly and with few errors.

Out of curiosity, what were the circumstances surrounding this?

The "how" they assembled the information is actually important. It sounds like you may have first hand proof that federal laws are being broken by federal agents. If you do, I urge you to contact your congressperson and the media and let them know.

They audited one FFL, but somehow were able to discover what other places that individual had purchased firearms from. If that is not the result of recording NICS checks and geographic location, then I don't know how else they could have done it.

For reference, most dealers file the 4473 alphabetically by last name. If I were an ATF agent, and I needed to know what guns Person X owned, I could probably look at their address, draw a 40 mile circle around it, and pick up my phone to call all of the dealers in that circle.

If it was really important, I'd probably have another ATF agent help me with the phone calls.

As a dealer, if the ATF called and asked me which guns Person X bought, it would be about a 5-8 minute phone call depending on how many guns I had to read off.

How many gun dealers are there in your area? With a couple of people and a couple of hours it doesn't seem that hard to me to put together a mostly accurate list, with serial numbers, of a specific purchaser.

What if that person had moved around a bit? Although it might take more time to get warrants and cut some red tape, getting your past addresses would be as simple as checking your credit history. Then you repeat the above task in those areas.

In other words, what you describe could be accomplished by good old fashioned police work.

If the person happened to travel a lot, and had purchased a shotgun in Colorado and a rifle in Virginia and another shotgun in Florida, and the ATF had those serial numbers, that would make me pretty suspicious. If all they had was a mostly accurate list of guns he had purchased in your state I'm guessing they made some phone calls.

 

[TexasRifleman]

As a dealer, if the ATF called and asked me which guns Person X bought, it would be about a 5-8 minute phone call depending on how many guns I had to read off.

Interesting.

Would a dealer have to give this information without a warrant? Are the 4473's subject to inspection at any time for any reason?

I don't know that's why I am asking. Any dealers know this?

 

[waterhouse]

The ATF can see 4473s whenever they want. Dealers must respond to a tracing request with 24 hours. I do not believe a warrant is necessary. In a sense, they pretty much own the form for the 20 years that I'm storing it.

ETA: The ATF can inspect the premises once a year in an audit type manner where they go over everything. If they find stuff wrong, they can do another audit within that year. But as far as the data on the 4473s, if they ask for it, a dealer needs to give it to them within 24 hours.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The ATF can see 4473s whenever they want. Dealers must respond to a tracing request with 24 hours.

Are those in writing or over the phone, fax, email etc?

Thanks for answering these questions, I've always wondered and never knew an FFL I could ask.

 

[waterhouse]

It is on the phone. I've only gotten it once, but basically you get a call from the ATF tracing center, they verify your FFL number and a password, and then they ask for the information they need.

I'm guessing if it was really important they might send someone in person to verify things. I think they did that a lot in the "Beltway Sniper" case at Maryland and Virginia gun stores.

 

[wyocarp]

I have several file cabinets full of 4473s. I can't comprehend the man hours to put those documents into some sort of useful database

As we have seen lately, the government has endless supplies of money in which to hand out to people needing jobs. It would be an easy task for them, and since they are our government, they wouldn't have to get it done right.

Texasrifleman, I was just able to hack into the atf high security files and found a full history of personal exploits and a list of firearms that you currently own that seems to be more than just a .22. Well just kidding.

By the way, they can do an in-store warrantless audit once a year. They can always get a warrant to search more often if they so choose.

 

[TexasRifleman]

Texasrifleman, I was just able to hack into the atf high security files and found a full history of personal exploits and a list of firearms that you currently own that seems to be more than just a .22.

Can't be, I may or may not have successfully employed the "gun show loophole" for many years

Still haven't quite figured out how meeting the letter of the law 100% is a "loophole" but I was never very good at politics.

 

[Old Fuff]

As has been pointed out, a dealer must keep #4473 forms for at least 20 years. If they go out of business the stored forms must be turned into the BATF&E, who in turn enter them into a database. Since the first Clinton administration the government has made a determined effort to drive as many small dealers out of business as they can. This effort has been very successful, and of course they've "databased" the records when they were turned in.

The real basis for closing the fictional "Gun Show Loophole," is to force private sellers and buyers to make their transactions through a licensed dealer because they are the only ones who can legally make a background check.

The long term goal is to require any and all transfers be made through an FFL using the #4473 form process. Those forms in turn would provide a way to accomplish national gun registration, because they contain all of the personal details on the buyer as well as specific information about the firearm being purchased.

As a practical matter you can see that any firearm purchased through a FFL where a #4473 form was filled out is for all parctical purposes registered - either now or sometime in the future.

That said, they can't do anything about guns made and sold before 1968 - at least until or when they are transfered to a new owner that buys them from a dealer. This is one reason we should strive to keep private sales private.

 

[runrabbitrun]

I see a few post here trying to put this topic into
a spin of a 'conspiracy'...
Which may appear to assert that anyone
who thinks the possibility of a gun grab could happen is nuts.

Not very high road, but I'm sure those posts are tongue and cheek, so no big deal.

I'd say I'm of sound mind and body and
I do believe such a data base of
who 'may' have firearms (not necessarily what type) may exist.
Or at least it's being proposed and or worked on in closed circles in
certain federal agencies in DC.
(FBI, NSA, ATF, DHS???)

I base my assumptions on the fact that two major countries
(the UK and AU) have already undergone this same type of activity
and have successfully grabbed the guns from it's law abiding citizens.
(I think the NRA put out a video about this some time ago.
I saw one recently linked here on THR and is why I'm curious about this now)...

I'm also confident that our gov. would love to have a list or registered gun users.
Right down to how many and what type of weapons...
and possibly even down to how many rounds one may have for said weapons.
That intel would be priceless to agencies seeking to
confiscate said weapons and minimize the loss of life to agency personnel directed to seize.

The logical step would be a national gun registration drive.
But that would not go over too well. Not in this climate.
(Or any if you ask me)...
So a natural and less 'threatening' progression could be they get each county and/or state to
mandate gun registration policies that at a later date, will be put into a national data base.
States could also loosen CCW laws that encourage
people to come on down and get that CCW.
(We are not told this is ultimate goal
it's just the 'plan')...

Now with that said, if and when a list is composed is when
the "turn in your guns" announcement comes up.
Of course this would be a law tacked onto some stimulus bill or other legislation
that the reps in DC (our servants) never read before voting for.
(Hey didn't this already happen with the last bail out bill?)
Or it could be due to martial law.
Remember, the National Guard was ordered to seize home owners weapons
in the aftermath of Katrina.

So the short of it could be.
Registration drive (for the children LOL) with no hint of the next step.
Then they passed laws that specifically ban certain firearms AFTER they
have already been registered.

What you gonna do once they KNOW you have them and
your given thirty days to take them to your local PD for a mandatory 'buy back'?

It's when the registrant FAILS to comply, the confiscation by force occurs.

Remember it's already happened in two major countries
and history shows us it has happen in the past
in other countries as well.

So I guess the next question would be.
Why would some think it can't happen here?

 

[Cannonball888]

Thank you, rabbit, for explaining my opinion on this better than I ever could.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Well Cannon, glad I could help.

I've been labeled a tin foil hat guy in the past.
Funny thing is, each instance I was right and the
things discussed
did occur or are occurring as we speak.

This possibly of confiscation is what keeps me from getting
a CCW permit or purchasing weapons from FLLs.

Well that's not completely true as I did make two purchases
of rifles in the last year going through the NICS check thing.

In my area I have to go to the Sheriff and get 'permission'
to purchase a hand gun.
Why I need permission is beyond me.
I've already been vetted via the Nics thing, so again,
why do I need to get 'permission'?

Why do they want a 'list' of people in the county
who have lawfully purchased handguns?

 

[TexasRifleman]

So let's run this out to the extreme end then and see where we end up.

Let's make several assumptions.

1) This mandatory gun turn in happens.
2) Some number of people decide not to turn them in
3) The "powers" go after the ones that didn't turn guns in but are on a list somewhere.
4) A revolution doesn't occur and everyone just peacefully goes along with this.


OK, here we are a year later. A few of you have managed to keep you guns under the radar. You've stayed off the lists, and your guns are in the attic safely hidden.

What now?

You can't ever shoot them again, can't use them to defend yourself, can't buy ammo, can't sell them, can't even acknowledge that they exist.

When the time came for the revolution no one did anything anyway, so what have you actually accomplished?

My point is, if "they" manage to get the power in place to take all guns being on a list isn't really going to be the biggest problem and avoiding being on that list gets you.... what?

 

[jakk280rem]

here in oregon when a dealer calls in for a check, the serial number is recorded on the yellow form and given over the phone. i believe we have a state ncis check in place here and i don't know if that information is recorded at the state level, or transfered to the feds. always kinda wondered.

 

[runrabbitrun]

My point is, if "they" manage to get the power in place to take all guns being on a list isn't really going to be the biggest problem and avoiding being on that list gets you.... what?

I guess avoiding being on the list gives one the option to
die on their feet as free men,
as opposed to living on their knees
as servants to the state?

Personally I don't see this happening.
Call it wishful thinking or what ever.
I just hope it don't come to that.

But just look at what has happened already and
you can see that the possibly does indeed exist.

History shows us it has happen.
So I can only conclude, it could happen.

 

[runrabbitrun]

One other tid bid that fits this scenarios is the fact
that joint military urban training operations
(including military personnel from other countries)
of neighborhood take overs by military units,
has already occurred in this country and is supposedly ongoing.

I'll try to find some info, but if someone recalls some of the instances
please post them.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I guess avoiding being on the list gives one the option to
die on their feet as free men,
as opposed to living on their knees
as servants to the state?

One could choose to do this whether they were on the list or not.

So, taken to the extreme end result there still seems to be no point in being on the list, or managing to avoid it, other than the principle of the thing.

I'm fine with that, principles matter, but if "they" decide to come for guns the list won't be what is important.

I would hope that gun owners would stand their ground regardless of whether they were on a list or not.

Hope we never have to find out.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Well my thinking is not being on the list
is a better option than being on a list.

This way IF this gun grab was to occur.
(SHTF)
At least us that are not on a list
can perhaps be patriots and help to fight off this tyrannical
unconstitutional government infringement.
(Revolution man, lol)

I don't know, I surly hope it would never come to
fire fights in the streets with government grabbers.
But as free men, we would have a chance to at least possibly
liberate our countrymen and take back our government.

And again, I really don't see it happening,.
(hoping mostly)...
But something sure has the people of this country worried
and stocking up on weapons and ammo.

I'm confident that this surge is not because the
people are worried about foreign invaders.
I feel it's more of a fear we may have to defend against our own.
It's obvious the Federal branch is out of control,
filled with corruption
and hell bent on continuing to chip away
at our constitutional rights.

 

[MisterMike]

I'm going to say this with all due respect to those of you who are concerned about this--it ain't happenin'.

As has been already pointed out, the existing system would only be helpful to identify those who started down the path of buying a gun, not to identify those who actually went through with it. Further, there have been millions of other firearms transactions, some that occurred outside the purview of the NICS check. And millions of guns purchased in conjunction with the check have subsequently been sold by the original purchaser.

The current system, while not perfect, just isn't engineered in such a manner that it could ever give the yet-to-be-created Department of Gun-Grabbing Security the information necessary to successfully execute a confiscation of all individually owned weapons.

So--again, with all due respect--you really need to think through the limitations of the system before you get all worked up about this. Having said that, the principle of protecting private information is one that's well worth keeping in mind. We all know that, as a rule, government agencies would love to have more information about citizens than less. It's up to each of you to raise holy hell with your legislators any time they move to broaden the scope of government intrusion in your life, whether it's by erecting traffic cameras or by broadening the data that's reported to the government when you buy a gun. But it's a waste of your precious cognitive capabilities to fret about something that logically cannot be done with the system that currently exists.

 

[runrabbitrun]

Well I hope no one is fretting about it.
I'm certainly not. Just discussing the possibility.
Having said that, I'm prepared to draw the line
if the scenario presents itself.

It does seems some must be as fretting though...
as we can all SEE what's going on with weapons and ammo purchases.

I also agree that the current system
is not able to achieve a goal of disarming the population.
But I can also see how further legislation and/or
more detailed registration could at least achieve
disarming law abiding citizens in the future.
You know, the same way it has occurred in UK and AU?

Oh well, don't worry, be happy.
Overall life is good and this is still the best country in
the world, as far as I'm concerned.

If the day comes that DC (or even local gov.)
goes any further than they already have.
I guess we'll all deal with it then.

Peace

 

[rscalzo]

Then we should add to that list the mailing or email list of every catalog specilizing in firearms, the customer base for Brownells, Midway and several others. NRA's mailing list ever sold to other vendors? Who knows. How many log into GunsAmerica and GunBroker?

There's a million ways to get info of various interests. Probably one of the less effective is a NIC's check.

 

[dogtown tom]

I was just told (by a friend of a friend that knows someone that used to work at Walmart) that the price of CCI Blazer is directly tied to the increased demand for aluminum products.

He cited a report on "Entertainment Tonight" that said increased demand of raw materials by developing nations such as China and India was causing a rise in price for aluminum.

All you conspiracy theorists, in desperate need of headgear (both casual & tactical) are causing a run on aluminum foil. This, in turn causes my CCI Blazer to rise in price. This leads me to buy less CCI Blazer. In turn, I shoot less. Which falls directly in line with the evil Obama/ATF/FBI/Gestapo/Brady plan to eliminate my right to shoot cheap ammo.

Stop it. Stop it now.

 

[Rio Laxas]

Out of curiosity, what were the circumstances surrounding this?

The person that this involved got an unannounced visit from the ATF while they were away from home. The person called the ATF agent that left their business card. The ATF agent said they had received an "unusual" number of firearms in the past two years (20 or so) and that they needed to come by and take a look. That person then hired an attorney with whom I am acquainted.

A meeting was set up at the attorney's office and the person involved was asked to bring all of the handguns on the list. They were not interested in any of the long guns.

Could it have been done by good old fashioned police work? Possibly, but this was in Houston, which has a population of over 4 million, and it can take a full hour to drive from one side to the other with no traffic. The transfers were largely at one spot, but others (which were on the list) were not nearby the person's residence.

Upon meeting with the ATF it was revealed that their interest in this individual had to do with a database that they keep of employment records. They saw all of these transfers and had no income information for the person. When the person produced their W-2 and the firearms, they essentially went away, but not before informing the person that the ATF was willing to pay money for tips that lead to arrests.

You are right, this is not conclusive evidence of the government keeping track of NICS checks, but it seems awfully funny that they were able to produce that kind of information that quickly on something they didn't even classify as a case or an investigation. It was called a routine check.

How many gun dealers are there in your area? With a couple of people and a couple of hours it doesn't seem that hard to me to put together a mostly accurate list, with serial numbers, of a specific purchaser.

You are right and that may be what happened, but that still seems like its pretty much a registry to me. You just have to put the pieces together.