No Knock Warrants

[Molon Labe]

+1, 50 Freak.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I truly feel sorry for anyone who breaks down my door. It will be their Unlucky Day™.

 

[beerslurpy]

Jeff White, I take offense. This horse is anything but dead. In fact, the abuses continue to escalate. The horse will be dead when the abuses have been remedied and no longer occur. Then you can object to the raising of this topic.

50_Freak is right, people are going to have to start dying for this sort of abuse to be remedied. Fortunately, no-knocks can be discouraged in the EXACT same way that home invaders and burglars are discouraged. Sleep with a rifle or slug gun by your bed and shoot intruders. This is perfectly legal and will contribute to the overall safety of society by diminishing the bravey both home invaders AND tyrants.

 

[Jeff White]

beerslurpy,
I don't care one tiny bit if you take offense. There are plenty of unsettled topics that the membership is unable to hold a civil discussion about. Most likely this thread will go the way of the rest of them. 100+ posts, people thumping their chest and bragging about killing police officer, others getting angry over that, name calling, members warned then banned and eventually the thread is closed.

If you all think you can hold a civil High Road discussion of this topic, then you are welcome to continue. You may notice the thread wasn't closed.

That's why I posted my suggestion to look up the earlier threads. I doubt you'll find too many of them that didn't end up just as I have described here.

Jeff

 

[beerslurpy]

Sorry for the double posts, the forum server is really slow tonight.

I didnt take offense because I wanted an apology. I'm a big boy and I can take lots of offense without getting angry.

Yeah, I agree that there is no reason not to be civil about this topic. I think it is important enough an issue that we can all afford to forego trolling the other side.

 

[Jeff White]

Coments like this make my point from the last post:

originally posted by beerslurpy:
Fortunately, no-knocks can be discouraged in the EXACT same way that home invaders and burglars are discouraged. Sleep with a rifle or slug gun by your bed and shoot intruders. This is perfectly legal and will contribute to the overall safety of society by diminishing the bravey of both home invaders AND tyrants.

It's not only inflammatory, but is an emotional argument devoid of any common sense. First off, if the SWAT team has any inkling of what they are about, you will have many more dead homeowners then you will SWAT cops. And with each one some homeowner manages to kill or injure you are essentially buying that department more military toys because you've just taught the city fathers, county board whomever the lesson that they aren't prepared.

I'm pretty sure you've never served in the military or on a police department, because a response like I quoted above will never get you the result you want. It will only take you the opposite way much faster.

The proper remedy is in the courts or in the legislature. That's the only way you'll prevail. Force will always be met with greater force and few individuals have the resources to meet the govt. with greater force.

Jeff

 

[beerslurpy]

Lets review why the judicial and legislative approaches you suggest are likely to fail.

The police are largely immune to lawsuits for damages unless they mess up really badly and obviously act in bad faith. One's recourse against such intrusions is essentially limited to the exclusionary rule and even this has been dead since 1999 (in the case of no-knocks Richards v. Wisconsin 1999) .

The legislature is largely immune to pleas to halt this behavior for the same reason they ignore pleas to end the war on drugs. Because the police arent kicking in doors of businessmen or politicians in middle class neighborhoods. They are doing this in poor neighborhoods mostly.

So please tell me what political strategy you propose for ending the use of paramilitary tactics in search warrants.

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Jeffwhite,
I will agree with you that shooting cops is not the right way. Anyone with a tactical headstart on a sleeping vic. in a home is coming out on top.
It just seems ridiculous that in our country cops in SWAT gear can bust in with no knock warrants, hog tie citizens, ransack their home, then leave without an apology. All with impunity.

It's not something I like the idea of and after reading various threads on this subject, I'm determined to do something about it in my local area. I'm going to get involved and make this sort of thing my pet project.

Just out of curiosity Jeff, pretend you aren't a LEO and imagine what it would be like to have SWAT break in to your home in the wee hours. Or worse, consider that you know on an academic level that no-knocks can happen where you live. Would a bump in the night be met with quick decisive measures, or would you second guess it thinking maybe it's SWAT coming in to your Jungle Room™ (shameless Elvis plug) and be less decisive? And would that lack of decisiveness be enough to put your life at risk? Or, would you just whip out the AR or whatever you carry from the squad car to the house at night, and start slicing the pie through your home in search of the poor dumb guy who broke in to your home?
Seriously, Jeff, what would you do?

I'm deeply offended by the idea that the police can execute such warrants on the public. I'm just confused by what course of action to take with this. Do I exercise my right to defend my home, or do I always assume that anyone bumping around might be SWAT, BATF, or Delta Force? Having had my apartment searched by BATF years back, I know this isn't ridiculous. (They were looking for the ATlanta bomber, before they fingered Rudolph.)
I'm not trying to be a smarty pants. Just trying to keep it light, but I would like an answer since you've decided to moderate this thread so heavily.

 

[Jeff White]

beerslurpy said;

Lets review why the judicial and legislative approaches you suggest are likely to fail.

Ok, lets...

The police are largely immune to lawsuits for damages unless they mess up really badly and obviously act in bad faith. One's recourse against such intrusions is essentially limited to the exclusionary rule and even this has been dead since 1999 (in the case of no-knocks Richards v. Wisconsin 1999) .

This is true and after reading the oral aguments in Hudson v. Michigan, I don't see this court changing anything. I know you can't judge by what the justices say during oral arguments, but given the records of the justices, I don't see them extending the exclusionary rule to evidence legally seized on a warrant if the police don't wait a specified length of time before entering a dwelling. I don't think they'd want to flood the courts with requests for new trials considering how many possible cases there might be.

The legislature is largely immune to pleas to halt this behavior for the same reason they ignore pleas to end the war on drugs. Because the police arent kicking in doors of businessmen or politicians in middle class neighborhoods. They are doing this in poor neighborhoods mostly.

The legislature is responsive to the mood of the electorate. You have to first convice the electorate that the war on drugs is as failed a policy as prohibition ever was. And the electorate is slowly moving that way. We have decriminalized marijuana in some states (possession of small amounts) and a couple have passed medical marijuana laws.

The problem is convincing the electorate so that they will elect a legislature that will declare victory in the war on drugs and move on is a slow process. It will probably take another 40 years or so.

It was the war on drugs that started us down this road, and only the end of the war on drugs will stop it.

I really do believe that the gun culture would not be interested in this issue at all if it wasn't for the Clinton gun ban. Until the average conservative gun owner started worrying that BATFE would kick down his door at 0330 because he had a full capcity magazine for his Glock or AK he thought that there was no danger of his home being raided. It all depends on whose ox is being gored that day.

Jeff

 

[beerslurpy]

I really do believe that the gun culture would not be interested in this issue at all if it wasn't for the Clinton gun ban. Until the average conservative gun owner started worrying that BATFE would kick down his door at 0330 because he had a full capcity magazine for his Glock or AK he thought that there was no danger of his home being raided. It all depends on whose ox is being gored that day.

Yeah, no argument here. I had a completely clear conscience (in terms of not worrying about cops at my door) until they started banning all my toys.

As far as I know, I dont associate with any drug users or sellers, so the WoD was never really a personal concern for me. Yeah, I cared about it in an abstract sort of way because I knew it was wrong, but until the past decade or so I never seriously contemplated the idea of cops wanting to kick in my door.

I also agree that the problem is 100 percent due to the WoD. We wouldnt even be having these stupd arguments if police hadnt become so obsessed with preventing people from flushing evidence, a behavior pretty much confined to drug crimes.

I also think the 40 more years estimate is probably reasonable. A major source of frustration for me, because I realize that every day the WoD/Terror/next LE fad continues, we extinguish more and more of the Bill of Rights.

 

[Art Eatman]

"The police are largely immune to lawsuits for damages "

I plead a certain amount of ignorance, but I have read of some rather large cash settlements after "wrong address" folks were killed by police. Mostly California.

Again, if the local citizenry puts the heat on the local elected officials, there is less likely to be a severe problem. Griping about the police doesn't do the job. For that, I guess the problem would be in persuading the "good people" of a city that THEY could be living at that wrong address...

Art

 

[wheelgunslinger]

This is key:

JeffWhite wrote: "It was the war on drugs that started us down this road, and only the end of the war on drugs will stop it."

That's a very good point. We need to treat the problem and not the symptoms.

 

[Jeff White]

Wheelgunslinger said;

It just seems ridiculous that in our country cops in SWAT gear can bust in with no knock warrants, hog tie citizens, ransack their home, then leave without an apology. All with impunity.

While one is too many, how many mistaken address warrants do you think are served every year? I don't have any idea, but when you compare it to the number of successful warrants that are served it's got to be a very tiny percentage.

I do think that the victims should be entitled to compensation if a mistake is made.

Just out of curiosity Jeff, pretend you aren't a LEO and imagine what it would be like to have SWAT break in to your home in the wee hours. Or worse, consider that you know on an academic level that no-knocks can happen where you live. Would a bump in the night be met with quick decisive measures, or would you second guess it thinking maybe it's SWAT coming in to your Jungle Room™ (shameless Elvis plug) and be less decisive?

No Knock warrants are almost impossible to obtain around here. I don't associate with the kind of people I serve warrants on, I don't do anything that would give anyone investigating me probable cause to get a warrant, and I don't live near anyone who does.

I am not quick enough to wake from sleep and execute my repel boarders drill before I would be blinking my eyes in the light of their SureFires. There are very few people who could do that. It would be possible to fortify a home enough and stand watch and take other measures, but I'm not in a combat zone and don't really care to live like I'm in one.

And would that lack of decisiveness be enough to put your life at risk? Or, would you just whip out the AR or whatever you carry from the squad car to the house at night, and start slicing the pie through your home in search of the poor dumb guy who broke in to your home?
Seriously, Jeff, what would you do?

Seriously, there is no time for that kind of foolishness. The SWAT team is coming equipped with the tools necessary to breach your door and be standing over your bed in seconds. Unless you lived in a large mansion and there was a hundred or so yards worth of hallways and other doors to breach before they got to you, it will take less then 5 seconds from the time your door is breached to the officers holding you at gunpoint. Obstacles aren't going to slow them down much, there are contingency plans for that. I know it isn't nearly as cute coming from me as when Geri Ryan used to say it but; Resistance really is futile.

'm deeply offended by the idea that the police can execute such warrants on the public. I'm just confused by what course of action to take with this. Do I exercise my right to defend my home, or do I always assume that anyone bumping around might be SWAT, BATF, or Delta Force? Having had my apartment searched by BATF years back, I know this isn't ridiculous. (They were looking for the ATlanta bomber, before they fingered Rudolph.)

When the BATFE searched your apartment, did they show up in the dead of night and break down your door, or did they drop by and knock on your door and present you with a warrant? If they actually felt they needed to use force to serve the warrant, then you already know what I posted above. If they just knocked on your door, then you probably don't.

The answer lies in ending the war on drugs. It's not going to be a quick fix, but as long as the public supports the war on drugs, they are going to support giving the state whatever tools they think they need to fight it.

Jeff

 

[beerslurpy]

Art, "largely immune" is completely compatible with wrongful death lawsuits. This is because wrongful deaths are obviously beyond the bounds of qualified immunity. But there is an enormous range of behavior that is incredibly demeaning and terrifying that DOESNT fall outside of qualified immunity.

If I kicked in your door at 3AM and tied you up so I could search for drugs, would I need to kill or severely maim you to be exposed to a lawsuit or a criminal sanction? If I was a cop, the answer is usually yes.

Sometimes the cops will do a raid on someone rich or important (like a mayor or judge) and a swarm of lawyers will descend to scrutinize every aspect of the warrant and to exhaustively interview the cops. An approach like this can sometimes result in some sort of error being found in the warrant or the conduct of the officers that sets them outside qualified immunity, opening them and the town to mondo lawsuits.

But remember that the average person having their door kicked in (whether right address or wrong) doesnt have access to a team of lawyers and doesnt know the local powers that be. They are going to be told to walk it off and be grateful they werent prosecuted.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Well, I think that the S.W.A.T. team leader certainly should apologize when his team breaks into the wrong person's home and subjects that person to inconvenience or death. The lack of an apology in such situations is just plain bad manners on the part of those S.W.A.T. teams and a sure sign of poor upbringing by their parents. That's what I think.

I also think that citizens should send the local police chiefs a nice note asking them to require all S.W.A.T. team members to take an etiquette course in how to behave after tyrannizing citizens or killing them by mistake, with periodic refreshers. We all know that mistakes happen, so that's not the real point here, but we certainly can expect civilized apologies when they happen.

Since mistakes like these do seem to happen from time to time, perhaps Hallmark or some other enterprising company could introduce a line of greeting cards for such occasions.

For example, one S.W.A.T. greeting card might show a rueful looking S.W.A.T. team--nicely hooded, of course--and be captioned "Hey, nice to bump into you the other night. Sorry you're dead."

Another S.W.A.T. greeting card might show a closeup of a team member winking through his hood and say "Thanks for the great look we had at your wife or girl friend the other night, you lucky dog!"

Or how about a greeting card with a cute kid holding a teddy bear and a caption such as "At least your kids will remember us for a long time."

Lots of possibilities here in an expanding market.

 

[Molon Labe]

It was the war on drugs that started us down this road, and only the end of the war on drugs will stop it.

What did Waco and Ruby Ridge have to do with drugs?

The proper remedy is in the courts or in the legislature.

Been tried. Doesn't work.

First off, if the SWAT team has any inkling of what they are about, you will have many more dead homeowners then you will SWAT cops.

The "Don't do it, else you will end up dead" argument doesn't faze us patriots, Jeff. In the fight for liberty, people will end up dead. It's par for the course. As Thomas Jefferson once quipped:

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure."

So tell me again why I shouldn't shoot the JBTs? You’ll need to come up with a more convincing argument than "You might die."

 

[wheelgunslinger]

Thanks for the response, JeffWhite.
You're right. The difference between SWAT and an intruder is pretty large in terms of how it goes down. I'm sure I'd be looking into the tac lights before I could move too, as would Mrs. Wheelgunslinger.
I just can't get over how Draconian the no knocks are.
When the ATF searched my place, they showed up sporting mullets and body armor on the front yard, huddled up for about 10 minutes and then came and knocked on the door. No busting in during the middle of the night.
However, in the wake of waco™, it was really unsettling to have these guys in my home wearing body armor going through my stuff. They found a survival knife, folding shovel, and confiscated both. My brother lived with me at the time and had just been released from Prison. They weren't after me.

I agree though. Let's end this cockamamie war on drugs. We can get a lot of people out of prison who don't belong there, and focus on jailing the ones that do.
*my brother did not go to Federal Prison for drug related charges.

 

[molonlabe]

From another thread

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2368628&postcount=10


I hope if this ever happens to me I am too sleepy to reach for the 38 at our bedside. Otherwise both my wife and I will end up in pine boxes. What people are going to stay up 25/7 with AP's and slugs???

 

[Molon Labe]

Let's end this cockamamie war on drugs.

Amen to that. Agree 100%.

But... be careful what you ask for; it might come true. If the War on Some Drugs™ ended, do you think the government will lay off thousands of DEA agents? Do you think LE funding will be cut? Yea, right. Funding will remain the same, and agents will be reassigned to other departments. Like the BATFE.

In other words, it is entirely possible that ending the War on Some Drugs™ will increase enforcement in other areas. One of which is the enforcement of unlawful/unconstitutional gun laws.

 

[DunedinDragon]

The issue here is one of accountability, and generally speaking there is no REAL accountability for inept or inappropriate behaviors on the part of lawmakers, judges and law enforcement. A cash award in civil court is not a huge impediment to the individual officers making the mistake of breaking into the wrong house. Prosecution for burglary is.

Prosecution, not financial reward, is the key to stopping bad behaviors. Even people like Martha Stewart have had to learn that.

In the meantime:

Jeff White wrote:

While one is too many, how many mistaken address warrants do you think are served every year? I don't have any idea, but when you compare it to the number of successful warrants that are served it's got to be a very tiny percentage.

How many drunk drivers get to their destinations without causing a wreck or hurting anyone? Does that mean we don't need to legislate an answer to it?

No Knock warrants are almost impossible to obtain around here. I don't associate with the kind of people I serve warrants on, I don't do anything that would give anyone investigating me probable cause to get a warrant, and I don't live near anyone who does.

..and probably neither did the person this post was originally referencing. I guess that didn't help HIM???

The answer lies in ending the war on drugs. It's not going to be a quick fix, but as long as the public supports the war on drugs, they are going to support giving the state whatever tools they think they need to fight it.

Here, I totally agree with you..but I think law enforcent has been less than creative in approaching how to deal with it, and they have gotten far to enamoured with militaristic approaches over good, and less sexy, police work.

This is not an issue of de-criminalizing drugs and aggravating problems already caused by alcoholics. But this is an issue of fundamental "check and balance" legislating that this country is founded on. We keep the pendulum in check by noting when things have gotten out of whack and legislating in such a way as to bring it back into balance. Right now the militarization of law enforcement has gone too far, and needs to be brought back into balance.

Are there alternatives to no knock warrants? I suspect if you looked at most of the cases you would find there are. Spending the time to gather real, direct probably cause evidence through surveillence rather than heresay or witness statements, waiting until the house is empty and/or detaining the suspect when they are out of the house isn't as sexy as breaking in in the middle of the night with super kewl tactical gear, but it's a lot safer, less expensive, and less prone to disasterous results...not to mention more protective of innocent people's civil rights.

 

[Baron Holbach4]

This is not an issue of de-criminalizing drugs and aggravating problems already caused by alcoholics.

What? No lessons learned from an earlier national Prohibition (18th Amendment)?

 

[Master Blaster]

Spending the time to gather real, direct probably cause evidence through surveillence rather than heresay or witness statements, waiting until the house is empty and/or detaining the suspect when they are out of the house isn't as sexy as breaking in in the middle of the night with super kewl tactical gear, but it's a lot safer, less expensive, and less prone to disasterous results...not to mention more protective of innocent people's civil rights.

+1 They could have arrested David Koresh while he was in town buying supplies, or going for his morning walk. After they arrested him two agents could have politely gone to the front door, knocked and presented a search warrant. Then they could have brought in the search team, all nice and friendly like. If they had they would not have found any machineguns, cause there weren't any to start with. And all of those men women and children would still be alive today.

Instead they did an armed dynamic entry on folks who wer paranoid and heavily armed. And of course we all know the outcome of that tactic.
As far as the flushing of drug evidence goes, a toilet uses 4-6 gallons of water, and if you lift the sanitary sewer lid in the street you can see the pipe... I'l leave it at that.

My wife and I, after reading about a couple of armed home invasions and murders by crimminals in our area decided to conduct a couple of drills. We have an alarm system and a dog. We also have a gate at the top of our stairs and a reinforced front door.

All I can say is that I can get my loaded saiga .308 rifle out and pointed at chest level for the top of the stairs in 3 seconds. It will take an intruder more than that to figure out how to open the gate at the top of the stairs.

Here is an example of the Jury siding with a Homeowner who shot official intruders:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=179375&highlight=Florida+officer+shoot

 

[saltydog]

Who do we, as American people, complain about this problem to? The Republicans or the Democrats? Were screwed!

 

[ARTiger]

I have some more information on the original event which caused me to post this. . . . - Our corporate attorney has found a lawyer in the area where this happened willing to take on a lawsuit. Also, to add insult to injury, the guy's apartment complex is charging him for repair to the door and frame which was busted by the police ( who by the way are refusing to even consider paying for the damage they caused in searching the apartment or the door.)

They did receive a call from the public relations area of the police department apoligizing for the incident - that's who he asked about payment for the damage and was told that it was against the policy of the department to pay unless ordered to by a court. They still haven't told him who/what they were searching for or why his apartment was selected to be raided. The people in our office there took up a collection and so far have raised over $400 to assist. I am trying to get our company to match whatever they raise. Apparently a great deal of damage was done in the apartment search.

The more I learn about this, the more furious I get! I am thinking how I would feel if this had happened to my home, how scared my kids woud have been, etc. Also there's just a fundamental unfairness to this all - Does being a 23 year old immigrant office courier living in a poor neighborhood give this guy any less rights that say I would get as a 42 year old executive living in a gated golf course suburb? You betcha is does. I had never thought about things on those terms - naive I guess, but this has been a wake up call for certain.

 

[DunedinDragon]

Is there any way to get some media attention on this by calling local radio, TV, or newspapers? Since this hits very close to home (I'm in Florida as well) I'd love to do whatever I can do in terms of letter writing or anything else that could be useful.

Personally I could see letters to media as well as letters/calls to local prosecutors, lawmakers, ACLU, FBI, State Department for civil rights violations etc. The only way to start the ball rolling is to apply some uncomfortable heat.

 

[Big Gay Al]

Maybe criminals should just start yelling "police!" and we have to comply with them?

Too late, it's already been done. I forget where, but I recall a few years ago that some criminals did just that. They'd knock on the door, shouting "Police!", bust in, tie up everyone and clean them out. Unfortunately, I forget where this was happening, but I think it was a large metro area.