No Plan, Take Two

[Kleanbore]

According to a local TV news interview yesterday, a woman called out to her husband, who was grilling food outside, and told him that there was a man on the porch.

There sure was. The resident told the man to leave; the man protested and said he had been in jail.

The resident said he didn't care, and repeated his demand. The stranger left and went onto a back porch next door.

"Get off my neighbor's porch!"

The man complied.

I do not believe that confronting a total stranger is prudent at all. Nor is shouting demands at someone who has just said that he has been in jail.

That part of the story did not result in tragedy. But shortly thereafter, there was a report of a burglary. Same guy.

He is now deceased, having seriously injured a police officer.

One bad hombre.

Who might that be at your door?

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...9a8f37e079.html#tracking-source=home-featured

 

[milemaker13]

The homeowner should definitely thank his lucky stars the convict didn't get confrontational. Could have gone much much worse. Clearly, this guy was looking for trouble.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Detroit Fox News 2 just ran a story about a homeowner who captured film on her doorbell cam of a guy walking up to her front door at 1:30 in the morning with his accomplice standing on the sidewalk and what appeared to be a Tech9 in his hand.

The police were able to identify the guy from the footage and he turned out to be a convicted felon who was currently on probation.

The homeowner claims she didn't know the guy I question that but it's really neither here nor there.

I think ultimately instead of talking about what's going to happen if we don't have a plan we need to get a plan

 

[sourdough44]

Our dog is always looking for something to do. It's unlikely anyone is coming on the porch without being invited.

 

[MedWheeler]

No one knows if the first person confronting him had "a plan", though. At first, the resident was on his own property, right? Does the article say the resident followed the stranger to the neighbor's and told him to leave from there? Or did he simply yell across property lines while still at a safe distance?

My "plan" does not yet involve running inside and locking all the doors whenever I see someone I don't know in the street outside. And, I'm not going to do it if I'm already outside grilling and someone comes up onto my porch.

But, that's just me, and it's my choice. I have no issue with anyone who chooses otherwise.

 

[Kleanbore]

At first, the resident was on his own property, right?

Right.

Does the article say the resident followed the stranger to the neighbor's and told him to leave from there?

No.

My "plan" does not yet involve running inside and locking all the doors whenever I see someone I don't know in the street outside.

Of course not.

But confronting a total stranger who is on your porch may lead to trouble, and it does not seem prudent to shout demands at someone who has just told you that he has just come out of jail.

In this case the fellow did go on to burglarize a house, and then to shoot a police officer.

 

[MedWheeler]

But confronting a total stranger who is on your porch may lead to trouble..

Of course it might. Simply walking out onto my porch tomorrow morning might lead to trouble. Walking into the bank today could well have. I find myself surrounded every day by strangers who have intentions not known to me.

When someone approaches my house, via my front porch, they will know I know they're there, especially if I'm already outside. Whether I wish to determine his or her intent, or I simply want them to leave, I will likely have to involve me interact with him or her.

In the article, the resident was already outside. I've had people approach my driveway while I've been outside working on a truck, cutting grass, etc (yes, I do dare venture outside a lot!) I've ordered them away, and watched them as they departed. Some have been "sketchy", but all have complied. If, one day, one decides not to, then he will be addressed accordingly (and my "plan" includes elements for that.)

I'd bet money that over a million people in the US answer their doors each day, and nothing happens. Those stories don't make the news.

Again, this is my choice. Your "never answer the door" stance is well-established here, and that's yours. I have no issue with it at all.

 

[Sistema1927]

I know that this will generate some controversy here, especially after the other thread, but I am going to go for it anyway.

Why should we hide behind locked doors? Haven't we then given up in the face of evil? If someone is trespassing on my property then they need to be confronted. If they then trespass on my neighbor's property then they need to be confronted. Yes, use discretion and common sense, but don't be cowed into hiding away and ignoring these threats. In 99 44/100 % of the time there is no significant danger. Yes, there is the slim chance that the guy may be a crazed axe murderer, but most of the time these are petty thieves and pose no real threat to one who is situationally aware. Yes, bad things happen, but we don't live in "nerf world" and you cannot mitigate all risk. Even if you "dot the i's and cross the t's? there is always something else waiting to take you down. You might just be hit by a bus while you are watching for the boogie man.

 

[Kleanbore]

I'd bet money that over a million people in the US answer their doors each day, and nothing happens.

Certainly, and many, many millions go about their daily lives every day without incident.

But some of us do choose to carry firearms. It isn't the likelihood; it's the potential consequence of beingvictimized. Basic risk management.

Should the need to present or use the weapon ever materialize, and should the carrier have the opportunity, he or she may survive and escape unharmed, and he or she may also avoid the process of a risky, drawn out, and costly defense of justification.

But a far, far better strategy is to avoid the need.

 

[Kleanbore]

Why should we hide behind locked doors? Haven't we then given up in the face of evil? If someone is trespassing on my property then they need to be confronted. If they then trespass on my neighbor's property then they need to be confronted. Yes, use discretion and common sense, but don't be cowed into hiding away and ignoring these threats. In 99 44/100 % of the time there is no significant danger. Yes, there is the slim chance that the guy may be a crazed axe murderer, but most of the time these are petty thieves and pose no real threat to one who is situationally aware. Yes, bad things happen, but we don't live in "nerf world" and you cannot mitigate all risk. Even if you "dot the i's and cross the t's? there is always something else waiting to take you down. You might just be hit by a bus while you are watching for the boogie man.

Reflect upon Post #9.

And be careful when confronting a trespasser on your poverty, and be very, very careful before you go about confronting a trespasser on someone else's property.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I think working on our social skills should be a part of our home defense plan as well.

I read an article by (I think) Claude Werner a month or so ago about how people like the guy in the OP interact in society and how they view the world through a completely different framework than we do.

One of the prime examples used in the article was a Dollar Store Manager who was shot during a robbery. Apparently the woman made a remark during the robbery to the effect of the robber really wasn't going to shoot her. The robber took it as a challenge and shot her immediately to let her know that he wasn't going to be disrespected in that manner. (He actually testified to this during his trial).

The point of the article was that in these people's world a challenge like that couldn't go unanswered lest they be perceived as being weak.

I've had some interactions with people like this and pretty much always when I started the interaction by being an ass it went poorly even if it didn't end violently.

I'm not saying you have to invite the guy to your BBQ but you don't have to start the interaction by screaming

GET THE F OFF MY PORCH DIRTBAG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Either.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Ah the woe's of suburban/city life.

Not saying it can't happen out in the country, but look at the statistics for city folks (fairly minimal) and then subtract even more for us country people.

Strangers don't come knocking on your door where I live. Any unexpected person on the front porch (or around the house) is cause to grab a firearm and proceed with caution.

To those of you that live in town and have to deal with strangers regularly, I feel for you.

 

[Kleanbore]

I think working on our social skills should be a part of our home defense plan as well.

Surely.

 

[xXxplosive]

Once n a while we get door knockers.....I just don't answer unless I'm expecting you....just bought "Ring" the doorbell with the camera that you can watch from your phone or anywhere on line....installing it this weekend but it doesn't really matter...and then there's Otto our door man.

 

[Kleanbore]

...just bought "Ring" the doorbell with the camera that you can watch from your phone or anywhere on line..

In my opinion there is no reason to not do that if it will work at your home.

 

[xXxplosive]

Works anywhere on line.....great item.....and you can almost see out to the street

 

[Kleanbore]

Currently, "porch pirates" are a big concern--crooks who follow delivery trucks and steal packages that have been dropped off.

Cameras can record the theft.

Since there is no way of knowing whether a thief is an ex-con who is averse to the prospect of being confined again, it is probably not prudent to confront them.

Get the packages in, or ask a neighbor to take them.

 

[bikerdoc]

We have discussed this very scenario. With or without drug involvement.
The dude was trespassing at the very least that is why I have a mean Rott.
Secondly my wife would have taken action.
Thirdly , well, let us just say Mr trespasser has a long history of making poor life decisions and paid the price.

 

[milemaker13]

Beautiful dog triple X

 

[1911 guy]

Preface to clarify that being a jerk isn't needed, nor is it usually the wisest course of action.

However

Do you realize what it sounds like to have a bunch of supposed adults wondering if it's alright to stand up for yourself and not willingly let people arbitrarily take advantage of you and your property? If you're standing on my property and i don't want you there, I'll ask you to leave. If you don't cooperate, it will end with the cops called and they will forcibly remove you. Get violent before they arrive and I'll call them again and tell them to send an ambulance.

I sincerely hope that i live out the rest of my life without ever having to use violence or force again. In fact, I rather enjoy being nice to people. But I'm not going to cower behind a mountain of "what if". That's called paranoia.
I'm also not going to try to boss people around when i have no place to. That's called being a jerk. But I'm also not going to let people walk all over me and somehow think I'll alter my state of mind if assaulted. That's self-delusion.

 

[Kleanbore]

Do you realize what it sounds like to have a bunch of supposed adults wondering if it's alright to stand up for yourself and not willingly let people arbitrarily take advantage of you and your property?

No one here is wondering that at all. The question is one of how to safely deal with them.

If you're standing on my property and i don't want you there, I'll ask you to leave. If you don't cooperate, it will end with the cops called and they will forcibly remove you.

You have every right to do just that.

Get violent before they arrive and I'll call them again and tell them to send an ambulance.

If you are the one unharmed, and if you are able to produce sufficient evidence to support a defense of justification, then your only cost would be some degree of inconvenience, and that of getting an attorney.

But that is only one set of possible outcomes.

But I'm not going to cower behind a mountain of "what if".

Speaking to a stranger from a safe place would not constitute "cowering".

The OP in this scenario got by with what he did. The fact that the police officer performing his sworn duty ended up with a bullet in his head is an indication that that citizen may have been very lucky indeed