No shooting the perps, now what?

Status
Not open for further replies.
T

twoblink

Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2002
Messages
3,736
Location
Houston, Texas
So the cops here in taiwan have been having their hands full;

New drug out on the street is like PCP, and so these guys are STRONG...

So the cops come and put the cuffs on, and these guys either rip the cuffs off, or 6 on 1, and the cops still lose.. So the cops started shooting these guys...

The public got a bit upset..

So the police chief said "no more shootin' the perps just because they are drugged up.."

So they started using the night-sticks...

The public got a bit upset with that as well..

I have never seen someone on drugs who's "pumped up" but from what the cops say, these guys are "scary strong"..

So no shootin' the perps, no night-sticks.. so now the cops are resorting to breaking the arms and shoulders (a good friend of mine is the instructor in charge of teaching most of the departments..)

And now the public's upset...

OK, so if you can't shoot them, and they are all but killing the cops, and you aren't suppose to night-stick them, or break their arms, I'm fairly curious as far as how you "non-violently" subdue these hulks on PCP?
 
Taze them until they comply or have heart failure.

Or institute a mounted police force and teach them to rope

957968.jpg



Would those shaggy little Tibetan ponies go over better on the streets of Taiwan?
 
Ah, PCP freaks...

I have fought these folks, back when the drug made its initial appearance some 20 years ago. They can be quite a tussle. It's probably a good thing they came along again, if for no other reason than to prove what a joke those little expandable car-antennae batons and pepper-spray are. Anybody who will give in to either of those would have quit anyway.

You have to break them down before you can truss them up. This may be the one place where the Tazer really comes into it's own- but it won't keep them from being just as strong when it wears off. Reapply as necessary I reckon, cuffed or not. Time will tell.
 
....I'm fairly curious as far as how you "non-violently" subdue these hulks on PCP?


......Tranqulizer darts with minimum 250mg Valuim.....followed with a pillow case over their head.;) ;) ..:scrutiny:
 
twoblink,
Back in the early 80's my ex wife's little brother David, did some "Angel Dust" and early one morning, "found himself" mostly naked in a closed gas station wrecking the place. It took 6 cops to wrestle a 17 year old kid down to hook him up. He had bruises for weeks and didn't remember a thing except he came to in a jail cell and hurt like ...well... like he had really slipped a lot in the shower... or fallen down about 6 flights of stairs... as it were.
Other than that night of stupidity and experimenting, he was a pretty good kid in reality, he apologized to the cops (they laughed and kidded him a lot later) and to the gas station owner and worked all summer making restitution to repair all of the glass windows he trashed in the store.
David weighed about 135 lbs at the time but was 6'-2" tall, a high jumper on the H.S. track team kind of athlete.

Taken from some link on PCP effects...

Behavioral and Physiological Effects
Because PCP renders a person insensitive to pain, individuals under its influence can be quite dangerous. Anecdotal stories abound regarding persons high on PCP having multiple limbs broken or being shot several times and still continuing to fight police officers. It is an understatement to note that the police treat suspected PCP users with a considerable degree of caution.
Psychologically, PCP seems to produce a combination of CNS stimulation and depression along with hallucinations. Physiologically, there is increased muscle tone along with elevated pulse rate, blood pressure, and body temperature. Because of this increased temperature, it is not uncommon for PCP users to remove their clothing or to break through windows because of their resemblance to the surface of water.

(end of snip)

So I say use a net, a really strong net. The lasso isn't a bad idea... or a bolo
 
I treated a man in the ER that had ripped apart both shoulders while trying to get out of a pair of handcuffs. By ripped out, I mean tore all the tendons in both shoulders, (requiring a bilateral Bankart repair) not a pair of simple dislocations. That takes strength and some serious disregard for discomfort.
 
Twoblink...

My favorite "PCP fight" occurred about two days before Christmas, 1981 or 82- it's been a long time.

We were getting a rare snow for MO, 5 degrees, 35 mph wind and LOTS of blowing, drifitng snow. Got a disturbance call over off 59th- not unusual for the holidays, unfortunately. I rounded the last corner and see this tall, muscular (175 pound) 18 year old standing in the street in boxers, doing tai-chi or some kind of karate moves. He had a nice dragon tattoo down one arm. This was going to be interesting.

So, I slide up, hit the rollers and get out. He don't even see the car until I said. "Hi. What the hell are you doing there, Sport?" He looks up, backs up, and throws a roundhouse kick at my head. Now, I had a really good PT instructor in the academy (Jim Lindell) so I block it, but he still skips a heel off my head above the ear. I know three things now. He is amazingly coordinated for somebody who should be dying from exposure, he is very strong for his size- and I am pissed.

So, I reach up and kick his support knee out as he spins away, and as he falls back I hit him very hard in the side of the head with my fist. He goes 'thud' on his face and is immediately back up, sprinting away toward the house down the ditch. I caught him in about 15 yards, and did what should have been a flying tackle from above, at the 8 o'clock position. He keeps running with me hanging off his back. I weighed about 225 at the time, benched 250 for reps; ran a mile 2-3 times a week for cardio. This is all fun, but not really going well, and I am getting tired of it.

He has plenty of hair, so I grab that and dig my heels ino the back of his knees while he's moving. THAT anchors him. We're on the ground and he's all fists, elbows and knees. Multiple and very hard punches to the solar plexus, kidneys, and head finally put him out, and he is cuffed.

My second car arrives, and his momma is screaming at me from the porch. We take him inside to keep him from freezing to death ( he got rolled around in the snow as being exposed) and find a blanket to wrap him in prior to transport. We lay him on his chest, cuffed behind, and John (my backup) straddles him while I talk to Mom and sis goes after a blankie. I step in the kitchen with her for a second and then hear an awful commotion, and get in there just in time to see Super-boy run through the Christmas tree with John on his back. He is still cuffed behind. John later told me that this kid rolled over and got up like a horse under a rider. John is getting in a bad mood now.

Sis shows up, and starts trying to pull John off her bro's back. I snatch her off and cuff her. Hell, we got practically everybody under arrest now. I do a lateral-vascular neck retstraint on Super-boy, who takes another nap. Another car and the ambulance show up, and we strap Superboy to a backboard, headed for the hospital. Sis gets away from one of the other cops and runs through the patio door. "Happy holidays..."

There's more, but you get the idea. The hospital gives our boy numerous and sundry intravenous sedatives, and he is all better when I haul him on to jail in the morning. Very sorry he is, and hopes he didn't hurt anybody- but he hurts all over and would sure like an aspirin. I tell him I believe we can arrange that if he behaves himself.

Yes, they are that strong. The human body is only capable of so much, no matter what you put in it- but PCP folks just don't seem to acknowledge that. You have to break 'em down, tie 'em up, and let the medical types normalize their body chemistry- then they are allright, until the next dose.

I can see why the cops in Taiwan are shooting them, but it's bad for PR as you have noted. I think Stand_Watie has a pretty good solution myself.
 
Carotid restraint. No air to the brain, body shuts down. It works. Double or triple cuff (make sure all the keyholes are facing the same direction) while lights are out. Take to MD/hospital for examination (and bloodwork). Then four point restraint until effects of drug is worn off.

Still, it's going to take an army of cops just to be able to get someone behind the perp so the carotid can be applied.
 
good story sarge :)
I met a strange cat in STL (several years ago), who said that when he was younger he used to love getting fired up on angel dust and rumbling with other kids screwed up on angel dust.
Well to each his own right? :D

atek3
 
Part of the story may be the interference with sensitivity to pain and basic self preservation reflexes. If you dose a horse with painkiller, it'll run faster because the feedback from overstressed muscles and ligaments is supressed.

Isn't that the old story of why the .45 auto was developed? The bad guys in the Phillipines (Moros?) were so hopped up, the .38's weren't stopping them in time. I don't know if the story is factual or not, but it would be scary if center shots weren't stopping an attacker, and scarier still if you were under orders not to shoot...
 
PCP doesn't make the perp strong, but it takes away the feedback that tells a normal body to back off so it doesn't damage itself.

So when on PCP, the perp redlines his motor, so to speak. He'll do terrific damage to himself, but won't feel it.

That's why pain compliance is useless for PCP. Any restraint has to be physically effective -- taser, carotid hold, etc.

Or of course shootin'. :)
 
Don't know if the Moros were on drugs, but they bound themselves up before going into battle and this would slow down the blood loss if shot.
 
I'll bet the public is upset because Taiwan has it's own version of NPR, NY Times, and CBS spinning the stories to make them upset with the cops instead of the perp.
 
I can recall reading about a whole series of these that went down in the San Jose California (Silicon Valley!) area about...15 years ago, I think.

PCP is one drug I will never support legalization for.

SJPD developed a technique whereby they all tackled some loon at once, a minimum of four and six was preferred. It was a "co-ordinated gang-tackle". I seem to recall them practicing on foam dummies...cops in a circle, get the timing right, smash at him all at once and use a whole lotta cuffs.

Dunno about the stuff in Taiwain, but PCP freakout cases almost always stripped more or all of their clothes off for some weird reason...it was a good initial warning that PCP was involved.
 
Matt Payne is right from what I understand. I heard that a powerlifting coach likes to say to his newbies something like - 'your muscles are strong enough to lift a car, they just don't know it yet'. If it reduces CNS feedback then people can be incredibly strong.

It was originally developed as a surgery anaesthetic, see here
 
st johns, the cybercafe I´m at blocked the link! said something about 'drugs access denied'. So I used an anonymizing proxy server to access it, and it was just the straight 'dope' on PCP, no spin, nothing 'pro'. I wonder why it was banned.

atek3
 
PCP is one of the nastiest drugs going. Shuts down the sensory nervous system. Motor function seems to be enhanced, too, but I haven't found confirming info on that.

Have seen first hand, too. Deputy hits guy 4 times COM at less that 20 feet, BG doesn't even flinch. BG had already injured a few folks with those "Martial Arts Throwing Stars". Bad guy was well, improperly dressed for anything other than skinny-diping, except for some sort of pouch he was carrying loaded up with those throwing stars.

Later blood test revealed he had roughly enough PCP in his system to trank everything in the top 25 Metro US Zoos...twice. Don't know what kept his entire cardio-vascular system from exploding.
 
PCP users... sheesh!

Jim March,
use of PCP makes the user feel hotter than usual. I can't remember anymore if the body actually heats up for some reason, or just the receptors think they are heating up.

From the conference I attended relating to PCP use, the best way to deal with one of these berserkers is to wind them up in a heavy duty net arrangement. Winding them up immobilizes them, prevents them from running, punching, kicking or biting, and does as much to keep them from harming themselves as is possible. And then one can administer the sedatives... But 'winding' takes a minimum of two guys and having the net ready.

The choke hold will work, but one has to be close enough to grapple, and usually that gives the advantage to the user. To stop them by shooting generally requires killing them, as pain does not bother them.

All in all, PCP is bad juju.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
disarmed by LEOs
2 3
Replies
57
Views
3K
Sergeant Sabre
S
S
  • Locked
Interesting thing about calling 911
Replies
7
Views
1K
TexasRifleman
T
A
  • Locked
Furious: Trouble moves in
2
Replies
36
Views
2K
Hardtarget
H
feedthehogs
  • Locked
Sad story of what not to do
Replies
20
Views
2K
c_yeager
C
W
  • Locked
Violent Neighbor - No Police Protection - What do I do?
2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Replies
175
Views
11K
marsofold
M
Back
Top