No such thing as jerking the trigger?????

[entropy]

The author can call it what he wants, but as others here alluded to, especially with the references to grip, grip strength, and sight alignment,
it’s still just the basics.
Grip, sight alignment, and trigger squeeze.
The shot has to break when the sights are aligned with the intended point of impact.
And MUST BE FOLLOWED THROUGH!
I date back to the time when we were still hip- point shooting at the 1 and three yard line! With double action revolvers.
At the 1yd line, you would reach out with your off hand and place against the forehead of the silhouette and draw and fire with the revolver at the point of your hip. At 3yds you balled your off hand fist and held it over the center of your chest. (Mostly to keep someone from shooting themselves in the off hand....).
It takes a controlled trigger manipulation (however you want to describe it) while holding the firearm trained on the target. However, whatever, it takes to achieve that...

Having trained and taught everything from basic recruits to coaching PPC team mates, most firearms training has more to do with herding cattle, and operating a daycare facility for immature adolescents (20 something yr old recruits) than coaching marksmanship!

Main reason I got away from firearms training, and won’t have anything to do with being a range officer.
And I won’t take on a flight student who isn’t paying for the training him/or herself...
No high school or college students. Their heads are in a totally different places...

They certainly are.

It's even more fun when they are 18 year olds with belt fed MG's.

We had the 4-H kids load one round at a time, no matter what action type they were using. It instills concentration.

 

[9mmepiphany]

At 3yds you balled your off hand fist and held it over the center of your chest. (Mostly to keep someone from shooting themselves in the off hand....).

We were taught that same technique by the rangemaster who had recently returned from the FBI Academy. He said it was to deflect bullets from hitting our hearts.

The class sort of started at him, but he was completely serious. Being that we were recent graduates of the recruit academy and all on probation...we didn't laugh out loud. It was the same logic used to teach keeping the gun pointed at our target during reloads

 

[sgt127]

We had a firearms instructor. Good guy. I was a decent IPSC shooter. Direct line descendant of Jeff Cooper. (1984 ish)

He said “We’re gonna practice point shooting”

And, covered our sights with tape.

We practiced double taps. Mine were touching. In the A Ring.

He said I was using my sights. I told him that was impossible. They were covered in masking tape.

He said I was cheating.

I said no, I practiced the draw so many times, the front sight is coming up between my eye and the target. And, I’m just pulling the trigger.

He said “well, quit raising the gun all the way up to eye level. You’re cheating.”

I said the nano second difference between me bringing to gun up to eye level to get two good hits means nothing. Should I really practice a different hold just so I can shoot less accurately?

He got mad. Pulled off the tape and, thus ended the lesson.

 

[jmorris]

I guess we would have to define “trigger jerk”.

Is it a rate of speed a trigger is pulled?

A disruption of the firearm via the action of pulling on the trigger?

A disruption of the firearm in anticipation of recoil despite how the trigger is pulled?

The text book definition of Jerk…

Jerk
/jərk/

noun

1. 1.
   a quick, sharp, sudden movement.

…sounds a lot like the action I take with my benchrest rifles, when the wind is just right. The 2 oz trigger does not disrupt where the rifle is aimed.

Then there is also this,

2. 1.
a contemptibly obnoxious person.

With a trigger.

I have seen that guy at the range before…you know, the guy that waits until you are almost ready to break the shot before he dowses you with hot brass and racket. I think there are more of them than Sasquatch.

 

[9mmepiphany]

He said “well, quit raising the gun all the way up to eye level. You’re cheating.”

I said the nano second difference between me bringing to gun up to eye level to get two good hits means nothing. Should I really practice a different hold just so I can shoot less accurately?

That to me, is what defines point shooting...not bringing the gun up to eye level.

The best, and easily understood, example is the Speed Rock. The gun is drawn and rotated toward the target as soon as the muzzle clears the holster. The shot as fired with the gun just above the holster. It is a CQB technique

 

[sgt127]

No. He wanted the gun extended. Just look over the top. That seemed silly. We were at 7 yards as I recall.

The speed rock is a whole ‘nother, and, legit technique. At that range. Anything further, just go ahead and get the gun up there.

 

[9mmepiphany]

He wanted the gun extended. Just look over the top. That seemed silly. We were at 7 yards as I recall.

Sounds like he was trying to get you to use something like the Ayoob Stressfire Point Index...which works really well out to about 10-15 yards.

If he literally didn't want you to see the gun in your line of vision at all, he was just full of it...a lot of the early Cooper stuff hasn't stood the test of time

 

[JmacD]

I haven’t got a chance to read through the entire thread, but to me, the point made in those articles about the sympathetic motion of the rest of the hand is where it is really all at.I’ve been trying to help my brother out a little bit, who developed some very bad habits mainly due to shooting a very poor quality gun that made a plinking around out of a 9 mm feel like you were shooting a 500! It’s interesting, because you can watch his groups expand tenfold When the rest of his hand starts trying to creep back to the bad habit position. Yes yes, it’s grip! But the sympathetic motion that the author of those articles mentions is a really really big deal.

 

[exbrit49]

A guy styling himself as Shrek McPhee has had big articles in the last two issues of the NRA publications.
In the first, he maintains that there is no such thing as trigger jerk. He uses some convoluted system of electronic recording to justify his contention, and it is apparently part of a gun training program he is promoting.
The basics of marksmanship say 'line up the sights, and keep them on target while you fire the shot', easy-peasy, right? Well, not so much; squeezing the trigger so as not to disturb the aim is a real problem.
The most enlightening thing to do with a shooter who is missing is the 'ball and dummy' drill, letting them see what happens after the trigger breaks, with no recoil to hide their sins. Jerking the trigger? Watch the muzzle dip when the gun goes click instead of bang.
Anyway, suggest everyone read the article; this month's dismissal of the old pie chart thing deserves some discussion too.
I think the guy is full of hay that's been thru' the horse, and is trying to sell his training.
Moon

Many years ago I definitely had a problem with either trigger jerk or flinching. A much older acquaintance of mine cured me! He took me down to the range with my S.W model 19 . He told me to turn my back while he loaded the chambers. then had me fire, First shot was the usual flinch, then on the 3rd shot , just a click! I saw the muzzle move quite a bit despite the no fire, I was embarrassed but he just laughed, and said we will carry on but you will never know how many rounds are in the chamber. After a while i noticed that i was printing consistently on the target as I was too embarrassed to flinch! After several sessions like this I no longer flinched. I can even shoot 50 cal and hold tight groups. The gentleman has since passed away but he showed me how I was flinching and he cured me of it. I will remember his teachings always. I credit this guy with teaching me to shoot, I had always thought I was pretty good but he showed me I wasn't. His teaching has stayed with me. Many thanks to this old friend.

 

[Mike OTDP]

Back in the days before shooting schools became an industry, the old books on combat shooting recommended a year of Bullseye work. Because they had the fundamentals down cold.

 

[JEBruns]

Many years ago I definitely had a problem with either trigger jerk or flinching. A much older acquaintance of mine cured me! He took me down to the range with my S.W model 19 . He told me to turn my back while he loaded the chambers. then had me fire, First shot was the usual flinch, then on the 3rd shot , just a click! I saw the muzzle move quite a bit despite the no fire, I was embarrassed but he just laughed, and said we will carry on but you will never know how many rounds are in the chamber. After a while i noticed that i was printing consistently on the target as I was too embarrassed to flinch! After several sessions like this I no longer flinched. I can even shoot 50 cal and hold tight groups. The gentleman has since passed away but he showed me how I was flinching and he cured me of it. I will remember his teachings always. I credit this guy with teaching me to shoot, I had always thought I was pretty good but he showed me I wasn't. His teaching has stayed with me. Many thanks to this old friend.

Sounds like a great mentor! I do the snap caps thing with my wife also. It's an effective learning tool, both for flinching and for a FTF situation.

 

[MechAg94]

I have heard it suggested that a smooth trigger pull is more important than sight alignment as far as accuracy goes. I have to agree with that. I wish I had put more emphasis on my trigger pull with dry fire practice when I was younger. It probably would have helped me out a lot. Took me a while (and a lot of rounds) to learn better. Sight alignment, firm grip, etc are all important, but you can ruin it with a bad trigger pull.

 

[jmars]

It takes a controlled trigger manipulation (however you want to describe it) while holding the firearm trained on the target. However, whatever, it takes to achieve that...

I'm a fan of Ross Seyfried, winner of the 1981 IPSC Handgun World Shoot, former
African guide, a friend of Elmer Keith, and gun writer.

He calls "controlled trigger manipulation" stroking the trigger.




https://www.google.com/url?esrc=s&q...0QFXoECAUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw0QmNEjG3XAzT7_S1UeqqyY

 

[SDGlock23]

I think maybe that jerking the trigger, so to speak, is more likely someone not being familiar with the trigger system. Some guns are fairly fool proof there, like a decent 1911. But you can tell when someone for example, doesn't know how to shoot a Glock. They ignore aspects of the trigger and treat the trigger pull as though those things aren't there, and the result can be people saying Glocks have a "bad" trigger when in reality they have a very decent trigger, they just don't know how to manipulate it properly which leads to poor accuracy.

 

[Zak Smith]

Jerk is the correct term for something we want to avoid due to the word's normal denotations and connotations, to name one, "an involuntary spasmodic muscular movement due to reflex action" but also to include, "jolting, bouncing, or thrusting motions; b : a tendency to produce spasmodic motion". Its connotation of an uncontrolled movement also applies.

There are plenty of ways to actuate the trigger very fast that are not jerking it.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Lots of interesting responses here.
Frank Ettin, when we taught the NRA class, that was our approach. We used to coach folks into 50' hits with a Smith 43, single action.
Riomouse911, hadn't caught that; yeah, solving a problem that doesn't exist!
Wisecoaster, yep. If you see that perfect sight alignment on the target, it may be somewhere else by the time the shot breaks.
Entropy, used to participate in our local Bullseye league, and still shoot in our snubby league. But your point is taken, and the guy may be more effective in person. But I've seen people literally flinch, or jerk the trigger.
And, as many mentioned, there is a difference between fast and nasty shooting at bad breath range, and a carefully squeezed off shot at a distant target or game animal. Different triggers make a difference too; you're not apt to pull a striker trigger, a double action revolver, or a tuned single action the same way, or in the same haste.
And exbrit, you sum up a training method that has always worked for me, the ' ball and dummy' drill. If anyone thinks there is no such thing as jerking or flinching, all you need to see is what happens when there is a click, instead of a bang, when the trigger breaks.
Moon

 

[JEBruns]

And exbrit, you sum up a training method that has always worked for me, the ' ball and dummy' drill. If anyone thinks there is no such thing as jerking or flinching, all you need to see is what happens when there is a click, instead of a bang, when the trigger breaks.
Moon

Yep, wife is working through this right now. I'm randomly loading snap caps into her mags. She started with a bad flinch/jerk, but is improving. She kind of goes in and out with that issue over time. Probably because she does not go to the range as often as she should.

 

[sugarmaker]

I know when the gun is going off. Kind of. If the dot, sight picture, etc is wobbling in the black, the shot will be a 10 or an X. I am not aware of when to pull the trigger. Nor am I aware of balancing on my hind 2 legs, holding the sights on target, etc. but there is a connection between eye and trigger finger that happens subconsciously. I know where the sights were at the break, but it just kind of happens. If I had to think about balancing I’d fall over, trigger break is similar. Lots of practice making sure the trigger squeeze doesn’t cause other unwanted motion, but the break itself, with a crisp light trigger is done with the autonomous nervous connection between eye and finger.

 

[9mmepiphany]

the ' ball and dummy' drill

She kind of goes in and out with that issue over time. Probably because she does not go to the range as often as she should.

Be aware that the "ball-n-dummy" drill is an excellent diagnostic tool to demonstrate to shooters that they are actually flinching, but it isn't a teaching tool to address how to manage the trigger. If you just use the drill, you'll eventually reduce your flinch by hunting around in the dark until you blindly grasp what stops it...you you keep doing whatever you did to try to get the same result.

The actual teaching technique to learn correct trigger management needs to be taught and explained so that the shooter can repeat the action and self-check if they are correctly performing the technique. It is much more than just saying, "Press the trigger to release without disturbing the sights. It is something that needs to be taught by a teacher, not an instructor, who understands the cause and effect that goes into trigger management

 

[JEBruns]

Be aware that the "ball-n-dummy" drill is an excellent diagnostic tool to demonstrate to shooters that they are actually flinching, but it isn't a teaching tool to address how to manage the trigger. If you just use the drill, you'll eventually reduce your flinch by hunting around in the dark until you blindly grasp what stops it...you you keep doing whatever you did to try to get the same result.

The actual teaching technique to learn correct trigger management needs to be taught and explained so that the shooter can repeat the action and self-check if they are correctly performing the technique. It is much more than just saying, "Press the trigger to release without disturbing the sights. It is something that needs to be taught by a teacher, not an instructor, who understands the cause and effect that goes into trigger management

We understand. We took some instruction together when she first got into CC. And she has continued to take private lessons now and again. She belongs to the local Well Armed Women club also. She shoots decent, and just passed her Illinois non-resident CC test with flying colors. But she could tighten it up some.

 

[kidneyboy]

If the trigger press is controlled it's not a jerk. The goal is to learn to press the trigger to make the gun fire without disturbing the index of the gun on the target. My instructor group teaches regular NRA Basic Handgun classes, primarily to folks having no prior experience with guns. We have had a good deal of success helping our students learn to press the trigger to make the gun fire without disturbing the index of the gun on the target applying the following:

1. One essentially presses the trigger to make the gun fire without disturbing its index on the target by applying a smooth press straight back on the trigger with only the trigger finger moving. Maintain your focus on the front sight (or the reticle if using a scope) as you press the trigger, increasing pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Don't try to predict exactly when the gun will go off nor try to cause the shot to break at a particular moment. This is what Jeff Cooper called the "surprise break."
   
   
2. One wants to place his finger on the trigger in a manner that facilitates that. Usually, the best place for the finger to contact the trigger will be the middle of the portion of the finger between the first knuckle and the fingertip, and that part of the finger should be perpendicular to the direction in which the trigger moves.
   
   • With some triggers, e. g., heavy double action triggers with a long travel, that placement might not provide enough leverage to work the trigger smoothly. In such cases, the trigger may be placed at the first joint.
     
     
   • In either case, the trigger finger needs to be curved away from the gun sufficiently to allow it to press the trigger straight back without the trigger finger binding or applying lateral pressure to the gun. If one has to reach too far to get his finger properly on the trigger (or turn the gun to the point that the axis of the barrel is significantly misaligned with the forearm), the gun is too big. (For example, I have a short trigger reach and can't properly shoot some handguns, like N frame Smith & Wesson revolvers double action.)
   
   
3. By keeping focus on the front sight (or reticle) and increasing pressure on the trigger until the gun essentially shoots itself, you don’t anticipate the shot breaking. But if you try to make the shot break at that one instant in time when everything seem steady and aligned, you usually wind up jerking the trigger.
   
   
4. Of course the gun will wobble a bit on the target. It is just not possible to hold the gun absolutely steady. Because you are alive, there will always be a slight movement caused by all the tiny movement associated with being alive: your heart beating; tiny muscular movements necessary to maintain your balance, etc. Try not to worry about the wobble and don’t worry about trying to keep the sight aligned on a single point. Just let the front sight be somewhere in a small, imaginary box in the center of the target. And of course, properly using some form of rest will also help minimize wobble.
   
   
5. In our teaching we avoid using the words "squeeze" or "pull" to describe the actuation of the trigger. We prefer to refer to "pressing" the trigger. The word "press" seems to better describe the process of smoothly pressing the trigger straight back, with only the trigger finger moving, to a surprise break.
   
   
6. You'll want to be able to perform the fundamentals reflexively, on demand without conscious thought. You do that by practicing them slowly to develop smoothness. Then smooth becomes fast.
   
   • Again, remember that practice doesn't make perfect. Only perfect practice makes perfect.
     
     
   • Practice also makes permanent. If you keep practicing doing something poorly, you will become an expert at doing it poorly.
   
   
7. Many people are uncomfortable with the idea of the gun firing "by surprise." They feel that when using the gun for practical applications, e. g., hunting or self defense, they need to be able to make the gun fire right now. But if you try to make the gun fire right now, you will almost certainly jerk the trigger thus jerking the gun off target and missing your shot. That's where the "compressed surprise break" comes in.
   
   • As you practice (perfectly) and develop the facility to reflexively (without conscious thought) apply a smooth, continuously increasing pressure to the trigger the time interval between beginning to press and the shot breaking gets progressively shorter until it become indistinguishable from being instantaneous. In other words, that period of uncertainty during which the shot might break, but you don't know exactly when, becomes vanishingly short. And that is the compressed surprise break.
     
     
   • Jeff Cooper explains the compressed surprise break in this video beginning at 36:04. This article by Jeff Campbell and this article by Jim Wilson might also be helpful.
     
     
   • It may help to understand the way humans learn a physical skill.
     
     • In learning a physical skill, we all go through a four step process:
       
       • unconscious incompetence, we can't do something and we don't even know how to do it;
         
         
       • conscious incompetence, we can't physically do something even though we know in our mind how to do it;
         
         
       • conscious competence, we know how to do something but can only do it right if we concentrate on doing it properly; and
         
         
       • unconscious competence, at this final stage we know how to do something and can do it reflexively (as second nature) on demand without having to think about it.
       
       
     • To get to the third stage, you need to think through the physical task consciously in order to do it perfectly. You need to start slow; one must walk before he can run. The key here is going slow so that you can perform each repetition properly and smoothly. Don't try to be fast. Try to be smooth. Now here's the kicker: slow is smooth and smooth is fast. You are trying to program your body to perform each of the components of the task properly and efficiently. As the programing takes, you get smoother; and as you get smoother you get more efficient and more sure, and therefore, faster.
       
       
     • I have in fact seen this over and over, both in the classes I've been in and with students that I've helped train. Start slow, consciously doing the physical act smoothly. You start to get smooth, and as you get smooth your pace will start to pick up. And about now, you will have reached the stage of conscious competence. You can do something properly and well as long as you think about it.
       
       
     • To go from conscious competence to the final stage, unconscious competence, is usually thought to take around 5,000 good repetitions. The good news is that dry practice will count. The bad news is that poor repetitions don't count and can set you back. You need to work at this to get good.
       
       
     • If one has reached the stage of unconscious competence as far as trigger control is concerned, he will be able to consistently execute a proper, controlled trigger press quickly and without conscious thought. Of course one needs to practice regularly and properly to maintain proficiency, but it's easier to maintain it once achieved than it was to first achieve it.

This should be required reading. Especially the emphasis on working slowly, which I think is left out of a lot of training, and the fact that it takes a LOT of good repetitions to become competent.

 

[halfmoonclip]

Judging by the high/random hits on the backstop plate at our Club, think some folks are only interested in making empty ones of full ones in a hellfire hurry.
9mm', agree that the 'ball and dummy' drill isn't a cure all. The problem being that students think that they are not jerking the trigger, as the jerk is covered up by the recoil. Further, knowing that they may get 'click' instead of 'bang' leads to a more deliberate trigger press.
To my original premise, a shooter can, and will, change the gun's alignment when they pull the trigger. It may be just the trigger finger, or it may involve a twitch of the whole hand. The variety of triggers complicates the issue; going from a tuned 1911 to a Glock does take a mental adjustment, and a hand adjustment too.
Took a G26 to an Ayoob course, and wasn't used to the gun. 'Till I started using the distal joint, not the pad, couldn't hit squat.
Moon

 

[AzShooter1]

And dunno who many of y'all have seen Rob Leatham shoot in person, but he believes in "trigger-slap" and I have witnessed his results.[/QUOTE]

I took Rob's course many years ago and the "trigger-slap" really helped me control my shots. I don't worry about moving my sights while shooting.

The big part of it is to get your finger OFF the trigger once you've fired your shot.

Reverting to my old form, I finally reviewed my time with Robbie, yes I call him Robbie because I started shooting with him when he was in his teens. My Steel Challenge times have really improved, along with my accuracy.

 

[wally]

A cheap laser on your gun and some dry fire practice will show if you are jerking the trigger or not independent of how fast of slow you pull it. You can find some on Amazon for ~$10 that are fine for this purpose.

 

[I6turbo]

The most enlightening thing to do with a shooter who is missing is the 'ball and dummy' drill, letting them see what happens after the trigger breaks, with no recoil to hide their sins. Jerking the trigger? Watch the muzzle dip when the gun goes click instead of bang.
Anyway, suggest everyone read the article; this month's dismissal of the old pie chart thing deserves some discussion too.
I think the guy is full of hay that's been thru' the horse, and is trying to sell his training.
Moon

I haven't looked the article, so not sure what he's calling "jerking the trigger. Perhaps it's a controlled method of quickly pulling the trigger, or perhaps it's a jerk that would cause a flinch. Flinching is a big detriment to accurate shooting, and that trick of surprising a shooter with no round in the chamber is a good one to check for flinch. Or, when it accidentally happens to oneself via an empty chamber or an FTF.