Not sure some of the powder I inherited is good

[glaizinman]

I was given 2 1lbs containers of AA# 5 & # 7 1 of each has been opened. All of these powders are 1 lbs WSF, WST, W231, Longshot, TG, W296 and a few more. Anyway they where stored on a window sill in a day light basement with a window shade pulled down in front of the window. The basement was heated but not that room because the door was closed. I was told this powder could have been stored like this for 5-7 years. Outside temperature ranges from 105 to 18 F. I never used AA#5 I gave it a smell kinda smells like vinegar maybe? Does AA#5 smell more than W231? I used some of the WSF with no problems but that container looks a lot newer than AA#5. I took some of the AA#5 put some in the driveway and it burned I made a little trail to a little pile. So if it burned does that mean it's good? I want to use it to load 40 s&w. Sorry for such a long post and thanks guys!

 

[rfwobbly]

If its bad it will have a distinctive, sharp, acrid smell due to the nitric acid coming out of solution. That in turn will leach off the graphite coating and it will usually appear a rusty brown. In really bad cases it may appear to be "blooming" rust like a steel part that's been in sea water.

Otherwise use it. The criteria for passable storage is much wider than you might think. Optimal conditions may not have been met, but powder can still last for decades.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I took some of the AA#5 put some in the driveway and it burned I made a little trail to a little pile. So if it burned does that mean it's good?

No, just because it burns doesn't mean it's good. It may be burning to hot from some decomposition.
If it has a vinegary smell to it then it is already decomposing.
Just dump it. It's not worth taking a chance on. Open a good bottle of pistol powder and take a good whiff of it. That's what it all should smell like.
If it doesn't get rid of it.
I won't take free powder from anyone. I have about, well, alot, of powder and it has all been kept at 72 degrees in the dark for it's entire life. I give it the smell test often.

Be careful with that stuff.

 

[edwardware]

As per usual, start low etc. . . but it sounds fine as far as you describe. I've done chrony workups with 50+ year old powder, and it matched new production perfectly.

Sniff it per @rfwobbly , and work up.

 

[nambu1]

If it smells like vinegar, I would say it is bad and not use it. Dump it on the garden, it is good fertilizer.

 

[glaizinman]

I was given 2 1lbs containers of AA# 5 & # 7 1 of each has been opened. All of these powders are 1 lbs WSF, WST, W231, Longshot, TG, W296 and a few more. Anyway they where stored on a window sill in a day light basement with a window shade pulled down in front of the window. The basement was heated but not that room because the door was closed. I was told this powder could have been stored like this for 5-7 years. Outside temperature ranges from 105 to 18 F. I never used AA#5 I gave it a smell kinda smells like vinegar maybe? Does AA#5 smell more than W231? I used some of the WSF with no problems but that container looks a lot newer than AA#5. I took some of the AA#5 put some in the driveway and it burned I made a little trail to a little pile. So if it burned does that mean it's good? I want to use it to load 40 s&w. Sorry for such a long post and thanks guys!

Actually I went in the kitchen and gave the vinegar a smell. The smell of the powder is not near as strong smelling as the vinegar. But it does smell different than BD, H 335, 2400, PP. I really wouldn't say vinegar but it's got a different smell maybe I'm just a little over cautious. What is worse case scenario if it is bad and I use it?

 

[LiveLife]

I was given 2 1lbs containers of "X" ... each has been opened.

Actually, if the container has been opened, you were given containers of "X" where content inside is unknown.

Reloaders are human and humans make mistakes. Some reloaders have been known to keep empty 1 lb containers to transfer powders from 4 and 8 lb containers. A few reloaders have also been known to pour unused powder from powder measure into wrong 1/4/8 lb containers.

Bottom line, you cannot be sure of contents of opened powder containers. When in doubt, do not use the powder and scatter on lawn or garden as fertilizer.

they where stored on a window sill in a day light basement with a window shade pulled down in front of the window. The basement was heated but not that room because the door was closed. I was told this powder could have been stored like this for 5-7 years. Outside temperature ranges from 105 to 18 F ... What is worse case scenario if it is bad and I use it?

Faster powder burn (Higher chamber pressures) than when powder was originally manufactured. And if different powders were unintentionally mixed and they started to deteriorate, even worse.

And just like uncertainty of contents inside opened powder containers, you can't be sure of anything even though you were told powder containers were stored at such and such temperature for such and such number of years. Even though you were told the powder containers were stored there for 5-7 years, possibility exists some of them could have been stored longer (perhaps at higher temperatures inside a garage/storage shed) then given to the person who placed them on the window sill.

Bottom line, you just can't be sure of used powder as to how they were stored, particularly to temperature. When in doubt, do not use the powder and scatter on lawn or garden as fertilizer.


This is from Hodgdon on "Gunpowder Stability" - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/safety/gunpowder-stability

"Smokeless Propellant

The main ingredient of smokeless propellant, comprising from about 55% to 90% of the composition, is nitrocellulose. The process of creating nitrocellulose leaves remnant acid in the material. This acid immediately starts decomposing the finished product. Left alone the decomposition will reach the stage where the propellant becomes unstable and self-ignites. This process resulted in massive explosions at U.S. Government arsenals after World War I.

To increase the life of the smokeless propellant, a stabilizing chemical is used. This 'stabilizer' reacts with the acid to slow down the decomposition process. However, as the stabilizer reacts with the acid it is consumed. After the stabilizer is totally consumed, the propellant is no longer protected from the internal acid.

The entire stabilizer / decomposition process is a time and temperature function – the higher the temperature, the shorter the safe life of the powder. Even moderate temperature, over extended time, leads to propellant decomposition. As a rule of thumb, any temperature over that which is comfortable to a person is accelerating the decomposition of smokeless propellants.

Under proper storage, modern smokeless powder can last for decades. However, this does not mean the reloader can ignore how the powder is stored, particularly if in an uncontrolled environment such as a garage or storage building."

Keep in mind, higher storage temperature significantly shortens powder life. Below is a table from CMP forum and addresses dangers of using deteriorated powder (Note, significant degradation starts above 86F) - http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=157820

 

[Charlie98]

There are different smells to different types of powders... I was bored one day and pulled all my powders out and snorkeled them to see which one I liked the best. Anyway, as I understand it, bad powder has a 'you'll know it when you smell it' odor when it goes bad... although I don't know if I've ever experienced it myself. Another thing is the deterioration... pour some out on a white sheet of paper, settle it, and then look for rust colored spots or flakes...

Personally, if there is any question about it, I would dump it. $100 worth of mystery powder isn't worth blowing up my pretty face or one of my firearms... or, worse, if someone is shooting my firearms (although I generically don't let people shoot my reloads, even in my own guns.) That doesn't mean you have to dump all of it... but if there is a question, at least the ones that are suspicious.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Even though my experience is limited, I agree with bds. You just don’t know what might have occurred with an open container.

A friend who was dying gave me an open container of W231. The first thing I noticed was it was stored in a dank basement. The second was that the container is not the same as current 1 lb containers of W231.

I was reluctant, but politely accepted. When I got it home it bothered me. I sniffed it, put it back on the shelf, sniffed it again like two months later, and put it back in the shelf again. It smelled fine, but the man had brain cancer. I have no idea what might have occurred while he was sick and not thinking clearly.

After another month I smelled it again, shook my head, and then filled the jug with water and threw it away.

Powder is cheap. I’d probably be willing to use the sealed stuff, but if you’re in a place that allows fireworks, I’d probably just burn up the open stuff on the 4th of July.

 

[glaizinman]

Actually, if the container has been opened, you were given containers of "X" where content inside is unknown.

Reloaders are human and humans make mistakes. Some reloaders have been known to keep empty 1 lb containers to transfer powders from 4 and 8 lb containers. A few reloaders have also been known to pour unused powder from powder measure into wrong 1/4/8 lb containers.

Bottom line, you cannot be sure of contents of opened powder containers. When in doubt, do not use the powder and scatter on lawn or garden as fertilizer.


Faster powder burn (Higher chamber pressures) than when powder was originally manufactured. And if different powders were unintentionally mixed and they started to deteriorate, even worse.

And just like uncertainty of contents inside opened powder containers, you can't be sure of anything even though you were told powder containers were stored at such and such temperature for such and such number of years. Even though you were told the powder containers were stored there for 5-7 years, possibility exists some of them could have been stored longer (perhaps at higher temperatures inside a garage/storage shed) then given to the person who placed them on the window sill.

Bottom line, you just can't be sure of used powder as to how they were stored, particularly to temperature. When in doubt, do not use the powder and scatter on lawn or garden as fertilizer.


This is from Hodgdon on "Gunpowder Stability" - http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-education/safety/gunpowder-stability

"Smokeless Propellant

The main ingredient of smokeless propellant, comprising from about 55% to 90% of the composition, is nitrocellulose. The process of creating nitrocellulose leaves remnant acid in the material. This acid immediately starts decomposing the finished product. Left alone the decomposition will reach the stage where the propellant becomes unstable and self-ignites. This process resulted in massive explosions at U.S. Government arsenals after World War I.

To increase the life of the smokeless propellant, a stabilizing chemical is used. This 'stabilizer' reacts with the acid to slow down the decomposition process. However, as the stabilizer reacts with the acid it is consumed. After the stabilizer is totally consumed, the propellant is no longer protected from the internal acid.

The entire stabilizer / decomposition process is a time and temperature function – the higher the temperature, the shorter the safe life of the powder. Even moderate temperature, over extended time, leads to propellant decomposition. As a rule of thumb, any temperature over that which is comfortable to a person is accelerating the decomposition of smokeless propellants.

Under proper storage, modern smokeless powder can last for decades. However, this does not mean the reloader can ignore how the powder is stored, particularly if in an uncontrolled environment such as a garage or storage building."

Keep in mind, higher storage temperature significantly shortens powder life. Below is a table from CMP forum and addresses dangers of using deteriorated powder (Note, significant degradation starts above 86F) - http://forums.thecmp.org/showthread.php?t=157820

View attachment 828957

bds
Thank you for the detailed information. I had no idea that it could just ignite on it's own I think it will become plant food. But before I do my Uncle said no way he wants to look at it first. So that will be on him if he wants to use it.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

You know this thread reminds me, my ex GF’s step dad told me he had a few kegs of powder in the rafters of his garage. It gets hot at his place and heat rises. I imagine as old as it has to be and where it’s been stored, it’s probsbly quite dangerous for him to have it at all. He has a big garden. Best to use it that way.

Good lord, when is the last time you could even acquire an actual “keg” of powder?

 

[Bat Rastard]

When in doubt,
Throw it out.