Not sure where this belongs...but what happened last night!

[Ugly Sauce]

Update: They came back last night, only thing left is the head and spine, some rib-stubbs, and some hide. All the legs, hips, shoulders etc. have vanished. The Ravens, who are my friends for sure, are getting some grub still off the spine and what's left of the ribs.

 

[Flintknapper]

That's odd, never heard that one. Absolutely pack animals. It would be true that they don't always travel in packs, but they certainly do "pack up".

Never heard that before either (Coyotes not pack animals) but it wouldn't surprise me to know that many people might not be aware of that.

I see an equal number of lone coyotes and groups/packs of them numbering from pairs to 6-8.....but they are certainly pack animals.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

No doubt. The vultures don't kill livestock.

Black vultures most certainly will kill cattle, primarily calves, first by blinding them. It is a terrible thing to see. https://www.farmprogress.com/livestock/black-vultures-become-threat-livestock Turkey vultures tend not to kill larger livestock, but have been documented killing chicks and such.

That's odd, never heard that one. Absolutely pack animals. It would be true that they don't always travel in packs, but they certainly do "pack up".

We actually had this discussion in a mammalogy class back in the early 90s. There were some very adamant people on both sides of the argument. Definitions are a problem when defining behaviors because few behaviors are absolutes within species. People always find exceptions to the rule.

They are pack animals if you define a pack as being a group, but for some sticklers, they aren't pack animals and that has more to do with the definition of pack being exclusive or inclusive including non-family members.

What most people call packs of coyotes are just family units called 'bands' before the offspring have departed the group. From a technical standpoint for some, a family (nuclear or extended) unit isn't a pack, but from a pragmatic standpoint, we call them packs. I am not saying you are in error, only that there are published sources that make the distinction between family units and groups comprised of multiple non-related and related individuals packs. Without doing genetic testing, however, you can't know the relatedness of the members of the group.
https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/coyote-info.htm

So depending on the definition, one might say that they are not pack animals, but nobody can argue that they don't live in groups for at least part of the year. Older offspring tend to break off from the 'pack' as the parents make new pups, but they don't necessarily leave the first year.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Black vultures most certainly will kill cattle, primarily calves, first by blinding them. It is a terrible thing to see. https://www.farmprogress.com/livestock/black-vultures-become-threat-livestock Turkey vultures tend not to kill larger livestock, but have been documented killing chicks and such.



We actually had this discussion in a mammalogy class back in the early 90s. There were some very adamant people on both sides of the argument. Definitions are a problem when defining behaviors because few behaviors are absolutes within species. People always find exceptions to the rule.

They are pack animals if you define a pack as being a group, but for some sticklers, they aren't pack animals and that has more to do with the definition of pack being exclusive or inclusive including non-family members.

What most people call packs of coyotes are just family units called 'bands' before the offspring have departed the group. From a technical standpoint for some, a family (nuclear or extended) unit isn't a pack, but from a pragmatic standpoint, we call them packs. I am not saying you are in error, only that there are published sources that make the distinction between family units and groups comprised of multiple non-related and related individuals packs. Without doing genetic testing, however, you can't know the relatedness of the members of the group.
https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/coyote-info.htm

So depending on the definition, one might say that they are not pack animals, but nobody can argue that they don't live in groups for at least part of the year. Older offspring tend to break off from the 'pack' as the parents make new pups, but they don't necessarily leave the first year.

Dang it Double Naught, you know stuff. Way beyond my knowledge, or "loose" understanding of it. I defer to your explanation. !!! And, I probably won't be doing much genetic testing on our coyotes, so I will stand in error until I can get around to doing that. !!!!!

Now ask me about Ravens. I know stuff about them.

 

[Flintknapper]

Black vultures most certainly will kill cattle, primarily calves, first by blinding them. It is a terrible thing to see. https://www.farmprogress.com/livestock/black-vultures-become-threat-livestock Turkey vultures tend not to kill larger livestock, but have been documented killing chicks and such.



We actually had this discussion in a mammalogy class back in the early 90s. There were some very adamant people on both sides of the argument. Definitions are a problem when defining behaviors because few behaviors are absolutes within species. People always find exceptions to the rule.

They are pack animals if you define a pack as being a group, but for some sticklers, they aren't pack animals and that has more to do with the definition of pack being exclusive or inclusive including non-family members.

What most people call packs of coyotes are just family units called 'bands' before the offspring have departed the group. From a technical standpoint for some, a family (nuclear or extended) unit isn't a pack, but from a pragmatic standpoint, we call them packs. I am not saying you are in error, only that there are published sources that make the distinction between family units and groups comprised of multiple non-related and related individuals packs. Without doing genetic testing, however, you can't know the relatedness of the members of the group.
https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/coyote-info.htm

So depending on the definition, one might say that they are not pack animals, but nobody can argue that they don't live in groups for at least part of the year. Older offspring tend to break off from the 'pack' as the parents make new pups, but they don't necessarily leave the first year.

Yeah.

PRESIDENT CLINTON: It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is

 

[entropy]

Dang it Double Naught, you know stuff. Way beyond my knowledge, or "loose" understanding of it. I defer to your explanation. !!! And, I probably won't be doing much genetic testing on our coyotes, so I will stand in error until I can get around to doing that. !!!!!

Now ask me about Ravens. I know stuff about them.

View attachment 1119782
View attachment 1119783

Whenever I see one or two crows or ravens, I tell them to say Hi to Odin for me.

 

[3Crows]

Whenever I see one or two crows or ravens, I tell them to say Hi to Odin for me.

Odin says hello in return, they talk to me .

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Whenever I see one or two crows or ravens, I tell them to say Hi to Odin for me.

Oh no! Ravens are good people. I raised one from a baby, the thought of someone shooting her hurts.




"Binky" says: "don't shoot me!"

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Our native buzzards eat the already dead.
Our invasive coyotes kill and eat native wildlife.
Shoot coyotes for the buzzards.

 

[dh1633pm]

We shoot coyotes on sight. Day or night. We are overrun by them.

Crows are smart. They will get their revenge. Unless it’s causing trouble, crows are left alone.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

We shoot coyotes on sight. Day or night. We are overrun by them.

Crows are smart. They will get their revenge. Unless it’s causing trouble, crows are left alone.

Yes, and Crows and Ravens are very different animals. Crows are smart, but Ravens are scary smart.

 

[Varminterror]

It’s bad bioscience to talk about “packs” of coyotes. Hundreds of years of ecological study has proven they’re familial, not “packs.” When we see the 5-6, 7 coyotes at a time, it’s almost always a breeding pair and the Yoy’s before they’ve been evicted. It’s exceptionally rare to see “packs” of double digits, and almost always seems to happen in areas which have extremely high prey availability and less motivation for broad territorialism between family groups. This contrasts to wolf “pack” behavior, as an example, where multiple breeding age females will pack together with a male, and subordinate males will often remain with the pack, at least until an age where they represent a threat to the hierarchal structure - the same we see in lion prides, where even unrelated females may be “packed” together under a breeding dominant male.

It’s a bit “1990’s horror film” to talk about a “pack” being so bold to tear down a yearling deer being a risk to humans in any kind of rural area. Certainly, there are urban coyote populations which present risks to humans at every scale - as they’ve had generations of living in close proximity to humans and have come to know us as sources of food, but a few coyotes tearing down a fawn in the woods is what coyotes are built to do. Dogs are always a risk of predatory targeting by coyotes, and can draw attention to a human walking with them - especially in late Jan & Feb - but a grown adult person walking in the woods is a threat, not a treat. Hell, growing up we used to have “dead piles” nearby to our feedlots where we’d stack carcasses - made for great hunting, and there were times we could count 15-20 coyotes eating there in a night - but even there, an unarmed person making a little noise could walk out and dump another carcass at night with no risk of attack. They’d flee back to their comfortable radius, just out of sight, and then come back once we had left.

Around here, we only get concerned when there aren’t enough deer left and the coyotes would be left to target our livestock and livelihood. And we kill as many coyotes as we can - until my son was born, I spent somewhere around 100-120 days per year calling and trapping coyotes, sometimes would knock a hundred or more out of our home county in a winter.

Way too much conflation of what’s going on in urban centers with old wives tales (or Native Lore) and the stories of scared suburban Karen’s which call animal control any time a coyote howls at the edge of town.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Never more said the Raven, never more!

Quote: Edgar Allen Poe, The Raven!
One of my favorite authors while in high school.

 

[JeffG]

 

[jeepnik]

View attachment 1126045

But roadrunners can fly and coyotes can't.

 

[MacAR]

We shoot coyotes on sight. Day or night. We are overrun by them.

Crows are smart. They will get their revenge. Unless it’s causing trouble, crows are left alone.

This, exactly. Yotes have got a good foothold here lately, and I'm doing my part to thin the herd. Crows used to be one of my favorite things to shoot until one day I say 7 or 8 of them chasing a hawk away from my farm. Now, I feed them and leave a few washers for them to have. My wife calls them our crow friends, and they're left strictly alone.

Mac

 

[rizbunk77]

I would not scavenge off of a coyote kill unless you are up on rabies shots, among other things.

 

[rizbunk77]

This, exactly. Yotes have got a good foothold here lately, and I'm doing my part to thin the herd. Crows used to be one of my favorite things to shoot until one day I say 7 or 8 of them chasing a hawk away from my farm. Now, I feed them and leave a few washers for them to have. My wife calls them our crow friends, and they're left strictly alone.

Mac

As smart as a crow is, a Raven is even smarter. They will try to talk with you.

 

[Bull Nutria]

I read a book about coyotes recently. It said govt and others have spent millons trying to wipe out coyotes for many years. Govt did some studies to find our why they couldnt wipe out coyotes. They found that the more coyotes they killed the larger the litters of the few remaining coyotes! So bottom line is we will never eliminate coyotes.

they are so adaptable to the environment that they live in cities such as chicago!!

Bull

 

[Ugly Sauce]

they are so adaptable to the environment that they live in cities such as chicago!!

I was in Chicago one time. I kind of suspected the cab-driver was a Coyote.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Oh no! Ravens are good people. I raised one from a baby, the thought of someone shooting her hurts.
View attachment 1124593
View attachment 1124594

View attachment 1124595
"Binky" says: "don't shoot me!"

Greater Northern Ravens are one of my favorite animals.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Greater Northern Ravens are one of my favorite animals.

Here's one I raised from a chick. (fell out of the nest, couldn't fly) This pic is her first flight. Yep, I taught a bird how to fly! What a character, what a pest, but what a cool bird. She eventually re-joined her family and other Ravens. She used to find little white rocks, and put them in my muck boots that I kept on the back porch. What was up with that?


"Binky". The grand kids now call all Ravens "Binkies".

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

And yet many people still maintain that coyotes aren’t pack animals…

What slack-jawed, booger-eating morons believe THIS about coyotes?

They're canines...ALL canines are pack animals.


EDIT:

My bad...apparently some canines are not pack oriented, like red foxes.

A "pack" is a social group of same-species animals, which may be solely constituted by family members or also intermix non-family members.

Coyotes definitely fit the bill here. At any rate, the behavioral effect is the same with respect to coordinated groups of canines co-existing together, regardless.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Dang it Double Naught, you know stuff. Way beyond my knowledge, or "loose" understanding of it. I defer to your explanation. !!! And, I probably won't be doing much genetic testing on our coyotes, so I will stand in error until I can get around to doing that. !!!!!

Now ask me about Ravens. I know stuff about them.
View attachment 1119782
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Is that Huginn or Muninn?

 

[aaaaa]

Never more said the Raven, never more!

Quote: Edgar Allen Poe, The Raven!
One of my favorite authors while in high school.

If you like Poe you should also like Nathaniel Hawthorne.