Novelist Seeking Help With Guns
- Thread starter Union St
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I read the excerpt and about the only thing I can comment on regarding the gun and related details is that it comes across as a bit cumbersome in the description. I'm not sure there is a need to be overly detailed in the description of the gun given how briefly it is a part of the story. JMO though.
EDITED TO ADD: Please do not attempt this test unless you have a plastic or soft metal (aluminum or brass) rod. Also make sure you mark any deliberate squibs or disassemble them immediately.
I did finally get around to assembling 5 squibs in 9mm. I originally planned on making 5 more in .38 Special for a revolver demonstration, but I'll have to do those another day.
For this test I used 147gr coated bullets seated into an empty case with a live primer. I picked a S&W 5906 as the test gun simply because it was close at hand and a good representation of a tilting barrel action. When I fired the round, there was a muffled pop - about equivalent to that of a child's cap gun. No movement of the slide was seen, but faint wisps of smoke curled up from the rear of the slide.
Manually racking the slide (as would be done in a Tap, Rack, Bang) resulted in the now empty case being extracted and a fresh round loading part way into the chamber and jamming against the squibbed bullet now lodged just past the chamber. I attempted to clear the bullet using a plastic squib rod built for the purpose.
In all 5 test cases I was unable to remove the stuck bullet with hand pressure and had to drive out each bullet with the squib rod and several sharp blows from a mallet. This mirrors my past experiences with squibs and confirms that should a true no powder event occur "in the field", the gun would be effectively rendered inoperative.
The pictures below follow the number sequence that follows:
1. Gun after first squib. Notice it is still in battery.
2. Bullet stuck in the barrel (terrible pic notwithstanding)
3-4. New "live" cartridge after attempting to manually chamber a round from the magazine.
5-6. View showing the slide not in battery and the new cartridge sticking out of the chamber after allowing the slide to come forward using slide release.
I did finally get around to assembling 5 squibs in 9mm. I originally planned on making 5 more in .38 Special for a revolver demonstration, but I'll have to do those another day.
For this test I used 147gr coated bullets seated into an empty case with a live primer. I picked a S&W 5906 as the test gun simply because it was close at hand and a good representation of a tilting barrel action. When I fired the round, there was a muffled pop - about equivalent to that of a child's cap gun. No movement of the slide was seen, but faint wisps of smoke curled up from the rear of the slide.
Manually racking the slide (as would be done in a Tap, Rack, Bang) resulted in the now empty case being extracted and a fresh round loading part way into the chamber and jamming against the squibbed bullet now lodged just past the chamber. I attempted to clear the bullet using a plastic squib rod built for the purpose.
In all 5 test cases I was unable to remove the stuck bullet with hand pressure and had to drive out each bullet with the squib rod and several sharp blows from a mallet. This mirrors my past experiences with squibs and confirms that should a true no powder event occur "in the field", the gun would be effectively rendered inoperative.
The pictures below follow the number sequence that follows:
1. Gun after first squib. Notice it is still in battery.
2. Bullet stuck in the barrel (terrible pic notwithstanding)
3-4. New "live" cartridge after attempting to manually chamber a round from the magazine.
5-6. View showing the slide not in battery and the new cartridge sticking out of the chamber after allowing the slide to come forward using slide release.
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CapnMac
Member
Might be wort some post-event exposition. In a slow bit afterwards, the gun handler will be going over the events in their head anyway. Since we are presuming previous experience, there will be some sort of "What went Wrong?" internal discussion going on.
Alternately, an external observer might question "What Happened" and another party might explain the squib/jam condition.
A thousand apologies. Life got in the way, temporarily. Thank you so much, Havok, for your excellent pictures and description. Thank you again, Capn. I'm a little overwhelmed right now with "stuff", but I recognize guns are my weakest subject (among many others). Maybe I should have another go at writing this part. I dislike concentrating so closely on such a small part this early on, but I need to get it right.
Havok, I've had time now to review your excellent post. Can you explain this for Dummies? "bullets seated into an empty case with a live primer". OK, so I understand; no gunpowder. Would an experienced shooter notice? Or did you compensate for the weight loss? Because this would, indeed, explain the problem that my protagonist has found himself.
You can't tell by holding a pistol cartridge in your hand whether or not it has powder in it. Even weighing it would not accurately disclose whether it has powder in it or not. If you put any other kind of filler in the case you would either get even worse results than what I pictured above (the bullet would perhaps move less) or you might end up with something that likes to burn or explode. In short, no I did not and do not recommend compensating for the weight. If you were looking to sabotage ammo that might be appropriate, but as mentioned previously you would need a loading press to leave no marks on the cartridge.
Rifle cartridges are a different matter. Typically - but not always - you can hear the powder rattle inside when your shake them. They also tend to have much more powder in them (around 10 times what is in a 9mm or .45 case) and depending on the amount of powder can be seen on a scale.
PWC
Member
What's the purpose of the gun? Is it kept in a desk drawer, bedside table, etc, or is it carried in a pocket, shoulder holster, inside belt....
Is your character a detective, who would know guns, or just off the farm with a grudge?
Seems to me the character would determine the type of gun.
Is your character a detective, who would know guns, or just off the farm with a grudge?
Seems to me the character would determine the type of gun.
I just ordered Voyages to Serendip from Amazon, based on what I've read here and on the reviews on Amazon. No, this is not the book that Union St is working on now, it's one of his prior books.
Edit to add a book review: I read Ian Fleming's Chitty Chitty Bang Bang at nine years of age. Even then I knew he was a terrible writer. There were continuity issues and gaps all over the place. Many years later I was struggling to read a Bond book and I realized it was written by the same author.
Edit to add a book review: I read Ian Fleming's Chitty Chitty Bang Bang at nine years of age. Even then I knew he was a terrible writer. There were continuity issues and gaps all over the place. Many years later I was struggling to read a Bond book and I realized it was written by the same author.
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NIGHTLORD40K
Member
Pepper? Or maybe shredded graphite?
CapnMac
Member
In pistol ammo, the weight of the powder is so negligible that an empty case would not be noticed. And would need a highly-precise scale to discover.
Now, this is something that could be done quickly, with no more than a simple set of pliers (that would leave marks, but you'd have to be suspicious to look at ammo in a magazine given to you loaded).
If it were, say, wartime sabotage, then the filling might be charcoal or some similar inert substance.
PWC
Member
Union St -
1st, in my opinion, too much descriptive detail. You say the wife and kids "got into a Peugot 403 it looked blue". Why not just "got into a blue car"? He "racked the slide to lift the first round"; why not just "racked the slide"...and leave it at that. To me, the level of detail gets on the way of the story, it causes the story to drag.
2nd- he bought the gun, buy the way, he never paid for it in the story, with a loaded mag; should have taken spare. If he didn't pay for it, is there an undisclosed party that set up the transaction? (Don't know, it's your story) He took it apart to clean (good), and never function checked (dumb). There is a reason a new gun to the user is function fired before use, especially in your described situation.
Observation- TV/movies always show the user checking to see of a round is chambered before kicking in the door or confronting the target....dumb. If you are a cop/detective/GI and you don't KNOW well before hand the gun is loaded, its too late.
3rd- Hard to explain two bad cartridges unless he was set up by persons unknown, and had to finish the job with a " baby Fairburn knife from his wrist sheath". (My sughested edit) One from behind his back...too awkard, too slow, especially with his jacket.
You asked, so...
1st, in my opinion, too much descriptive detail. You say the wife and kids "got into a Peugot 403 it looked blue". Why not just "got into a blue car"? He "racked the slide to lift the first round"; why not just "racked the slide"...and leave it at that. To me, the level of detail gets on the way of the story, it causes the story to drag.
2nd- he bought the gun, buy the way, he never paid for it in the story, with a loaded mag; should have taken spare. If he didn't pay for it, is there an undisclosed party that set up the transaction? (Don't know, it's your story) He took it apart to clean (good), and never function checked (dumb). There is a reason a new gun to the user is function fired before use, especially in your described situation.
Observation- TV/movies always show the user checking to see of a round is chambered before kicking in the door or confronting the target....dumb. If you are a cop/detective/GI and you don't KNOW well before hand the gun is loaded, its too late.
3rd- Hard to explain two bad cartridges unless he was set up by persons unknown, and had to finish the job with a " baby Fairburn knife from his wrist sheath". (My sughested edit) One from behind his back...too awkard, too slow, especially with his jacket.
You asked, so...
PWC
Member
Pull up from down on the weeds, to a thousand foot level. Rather than gunpowder/no gun powder or gun malfunction on first and second shot, look at the who, what, where, of the why. He still has to deal with the wrestling match.
Assination by gun failed so after action report (if he's still alive) back to the local gun store to register a strong complaint.
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Thank you for your comments, gentlemen. #110 Zahn; I'll message you. #111 Nightlord; thank you. #112 Capn; thank you. #113 PWC. Yes, this is very much an early draft. It will probably change out of all recognition in many months time.1. But details is, as you say, always a tricky subject. I'll see later when I pad the story out more. 2. Again, a lot of detail missing. The gun is supplied to him from a man in London, so this being the first time he sees the gun, I think he would look closely at it. Now I know he would probably not know that the ammunition was supplied without powder. (This is part of the developing mystery of the book). I'm also trying to explain (not very well yet) that this is an initial reconnoiter. He had not meant to fire the gun this night, but takes the opportunity due to the circumstance. I've not been paying enough attention to the gun lately because I'm trying to work on his psychological problems (another subject I know nothing of). 3. I will add an after-action review if he survives 
. Would there be a second shot? He knows well that a round is chambered when he opens the door. He points and pulls the trigger and "a muffled pop - about equivalent to that of a child's cap gun. No movement of the slide was seen, but faint wisps of smoke curled up from the rear of the slide" as Havok convincingly states. When he racks the slide again-even if he has time-would he pull the trigger a second time if he sees the round still there? I was not aware of the baby Fairbairn knife. It looks good. Was the Shanghai fighting knife a bad idea? He is ex-British Army (Malaya '48-'52) so he would be familiar with the #114, yes, I agree. I just want to thoroughly understand guns (and knives), then I can do the high level stuff later. Thank you so much everyone.
. Would there be a second shot? He knows well that a round is chambered when he opens the door. He points and pulls the trigger and "a muffled pop - about equivalent to that of a child's cap gun. No movement of the slide was seen, but faint wisps of smoke curled up from the rear of the slide" as Havok convincingly states. When he racks the slide again-even if he has time-would he pull the trigger a second time if he sees the round still there? I was not aware of the baby Fairbairn knife. It looks good. Was the Shanghai fighting knife a bad idea? He is ex-British Army (Malaya '48-'52) so he would be familiar with the #114, yes, I agree. I just want to thoroughly understand guns (and knives), then I can do the high level stuff later. Thank you so much everyone.
CapnMac
Member
In the pressure of pulling a gun to save his life, the focus is on the who, not the the what.
The gun will come up, the trigger will be pressed, then there's a "thunk" followed by an endless, semi-frozen bit of time, before reflexes kick in and the slide yanked back. Which will be in a blur to keep assessing threats and surroundings, all while looking through a blurry tube of sharp vision.
None of this is likely to be subtle, nuanced, discrete. The sound of a safety clicking off will be deafening--or utterly silent, depending on where in the adrenaline dump it is.
The gun will come up, the trigger will be pressed, then there's a "thunk" followed by an endless, semi-frozen bit of time, before reflexes kick in and the slide yanked back. Which will be in a blur to keep assessing threats and surroundings, all while looking through a blurry tube of sharp vision.
None of this is likely to be subtle, nuanced, discrete. The sound of a safety clicking off will be deafening--or utterly silent, depending on where in the adrenaline dump it is.
CapnMac
Member
No. Military use of hearing protection does not begin until the mid-80s; it's not convenient while just wandering around. Gloves might be an affectation, driving style, perhaps. But would be a thing which would aid identifying the person.
PWC
Member
Union St- The Fairburn knife was invented by a British soldier and he developed the Fairburn while in Shanghi China, or British colony of Singapore. The Fairburn and Baby Fairburn saw WWII use by British and US commando/special ops types. As ex-British military, that time period, he would have been aware of the knife, and probably took one with him when he left the military, like many of us here.
IF there was any smoke visible from the misfire, it would be seen at the ejection port, not the back of the slide since the action is still closed and the bullet is blocking the barrel.
The "pop" would be the cartridge primer, and since the round didn't go off, the primer could/would move the bullet out of the cartridge and into the barrel. If a second cartridge could feed into the barrel's chamber, and fired, the gun would dangerously come apart.
Looking forward to the next installment. This is kinda like the old "serials" in magazines..... The Adventures of Hopalong Cassidy....."Don't miss the next exciting episode to see how Hoppy gets out of the box canyon....."
IF there was any smoke visible from the misfire, it would be seen at the ejection port, not the back of the slide since the action is still closed and the bullet is blocking the barrel.
The "pop" would be the cartridge primer, and since the round didn't go off, the primer could/would move the bullet out of the cartridge and into the barrel. If a second cartridge could feed into the barrel's chamber, and fired, the gun would dangerously come apart.
Looking forward to the next installment. This is kinda like the old "serials" in magazines..... The Adventures of Hopalong Cassidy....."Don't miss the next exciting episode to see how Hoppy gets out of the box canyon....."
CapnMac
Member
Col Fairburn was actually a Royal Marine, before joining the Shanghai Municipal Police.
It was at this latter station and with his experience in the Anti-Riot Squad he started that he started designing the knife that he and Eric Sykes created. Fairburn was also famous for preferring a .32acp automatic as a sidearm.
If you read what I wrote (Union was quoting me) you will find that I conducted an actual test using 5 primer-only rounds. With each example I witnessed smoke coming from the rear of the slide. I have tested squib loads for many years now after getting a bullet stuck in one of my guns. When I tested in the past I was much more interested in the bullet and how to unlock the action than the smoke. The reason smoke can be seen out the rear is because without gunpowder to build pressure, the smoke from the primer can easily escape (I'm sure it comes out everywhere but I didn't have a view of anything except the rear of the gun)
You are correct that the gun could come apart IF the bullet gets stuck far enough in the barrel that the following cartridge can fully chamber. However I have done exactly this on accident (fired a round behind a stuck bullet) and the gun not only survived but actually continues to be extremely accurate. So it is not a guarantee that the gun will explode, come apart or anything else. With that said I would never recommend anyone deliberately attempt to fire a second round with one stuck in the barrel.
Thank you, guys. #118 Capn - it's very good what you say. I will try to incorporate it, but the trouble is, as you recognize, describing something that happens so quickly. #119, OK, no hearing protection. I notice they sell gloves with a slit in the trigger finger. #120, yes, the baby Fairburn is the knife he would have. Well, not sure I can write a serial, and I'm a slow writer, especially when learning. I'm currently writing the first chapter in the psychologists office. #122. Havok, your pictures were excellent. The question I have is; once he experienced the non-firing (which would have at least disabled his target), would he have pulled the trigger a second time after racking it? If he saw the stuck round (would he see it?), then he wouldn't pull the trigger, right? He now knows he's in a hand-to-hand combat situation.
The normal procedure now or during the 1960s would be (generally) to quickly rack the gun and try again or drop the gun and go for a backup gun/knife. Hand to hand (H2H) would be a last resort obviously, possibly even using the gun as a blunt instrument. This assumes you would be close to your target as you have described in your excerpt.
If you were to see a round stuck you would likely try to shoot it, but seeing something like that in the middle of a fight would be extremely unlikely.
If you were to see a round stuck you would likely try to shoot it, but seeing something like that in the middle of a fight would be extremely unlikely.
PWC
Member
Union St- Since, as you say, you know nothing about firearms, I would think you should spend some time researching by actually handling and firing a semi-autonmatic handgun. Mix dummy rounds in the magazine along with live rounds so you know and can feel what happens. It doesn't have to be the same gun you settle on in your story, they are all similar in operation. It makes it easier to write about a subject that you know.
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