echo3mike
Member
Scott Turchin has, with considerable effort, posted the current NRA HP rifle rules on his website for anyone interested.
Worth a look.
S.
Worth a look.
S.
NRA High Power Rifle Rules Online
- Thread starter echo3mike
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Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Yup, that's where I always quote from!
TrapperReady
Member
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- Jan 29, 2003
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- 2,732
Steve - After reading (again) the rules pertaining to "Service Rifle - U.S. Rifle Caliber 5.56mm M16 series... blah, blah, blah... The front and rear sights must be the standard design." I have difficulty understanding why the flattop is forced into the match category.
The A4 configuration is in widespread use and current issue to US forces. The detachable carry handle sights offer NO advantage whatsoever over the A1 or A2 versions. As time goes on, there will be more and more flattops issued and likely fewer and fewer fixed carry handle models issued.
So what gives? Is it simply that changes to the rules must be debated and dragged out for years?
The A4 configuration is in widespread use and current issue to US forces. The detachable carry handle sights offer NO advantage whatsoever over the A1 or A2 versions. As time goes on, there will be more and more flattops issued and likely fewer and fewer fixed carry handle models issued.
So what gives? Is it simply that changes to the rules must be debated and dragged out for years?
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Two schools of thought, but with the same end argument:
#1 Tradition. Ok, I admit it, I'm in this class. There have been many variations of the Garand, M14, and especially the M16, but only one or two versions of each are acceptable under Service rifle rules. The main reason for this is to prevent it from becoming an equipment game. At what point do you say enough is enough? Unlike our legislators, who continue to chip away at our gun rights, the rules committee for Highpower are charged with keeping the equipment list for Service Rifle as short as possible. Besides, there is a certain eletism that goes along with only being allowed to shoot certain rifles and still being able do it well. Can't deny that. The spirit of Highpower is VERY strong in SR shooters. I think it is fair to say that many MR shooters are viewed as being "gamesmen" as opposed to "riflemen" and perhaps rightly so.
#2 Let the newbies play! The other side of the issue is that sure, there are a ton of flattops in service, and there are a ton of newbies with flattops out there that would like to start shooting HP. I agree with the rules committee here...there's already a MR class, let them shoot there. However, many would say that this SHOULD be a SR rifle, and I see their logic too. Of course, the sights are miserably bad on most removable carry handles, so anyone who really wants to move ahead in SR will eventually get a fixed handle A2...especially if they catch the "spirit" of the game. As you know, I recruit new shooters VERY heavily. If they have a flat top, they shoot as MR shooters.
IMHO, Service Rifle is more than just a "Pro-Stock" class for rifle shooters, to be adjusted with time. SR, under one name or another, has been around since just after the Civil War. We will celebrate the 100th anniversary of the National Championships at Camp Perry this year. Before that there were military matches all over the country. Shooting in SR is not just a game. It links you with the riflemen of the past, and the basis for riflery in the future. With tradition and history come draconian rules for equipment. I personally can live with that. If you wish to fence, use a foil.
BTW, this has been debated far and long on HP boards...but I welcome some friendly discussion on it.
#1 Tradition. Ok, I admit it, I'm in this class. There have been many variations of the Garand, M14, and especially the M16, but only one or two versions of each are acceptable under Service rifle rules. The main reason for this is to prevent it from becoming an equipment game. At what point do you say enough is enough? Unlike our legislators, who continue to chip away at our gun rights, the rules committee for Highpower are charged with keeping the equipment list for Service Rifle as short as possible. Besides, there is a certain eletism that goes along with only being allowed to shoot certain rifles and still being able do it well. Can't deny that. The spirit of Highpower is VERY strong in SR shooters. I think it is fair to say that many MR shooters are viewed as being "gamesmen" as opposed to "riflemen" and perhaps rightly so.
#2 Let the newbies play! The other side of the issue is that sure, there are a ton of flattops in service, and there are a ton of newbies with flattops out there that would like to start shooting HP. I agree with the rules committee here...there's already a MR class, let them shoot there. However, many would say that this SHOULD be a SR rifle, and I see their logic too. Of course, the sights are miserably bad on most removable carry handles, so anyone who really wants to move ahead in SR will eventually get a fixed handle A2...especially if they catch the "spirit" of the game. As you know, I recruit new shooters VERY heavily. If they have a flat top, they shoot as MR shooters.
IMHO, Service Rifle is more than just a "Pro-Stock" class for rifle shooters, to be adjusted with time. SR, under one name or another, has been around since just after the Civil War. We will celebrate the 100th anniversary of the National Championships at Camp Perry this year. Before that there were military matches all over the country. Shooting in SR is not just a game. It links you with the riflemen of the past, and the basis for riflery in the future. With tradition and history come draconian rules for equipment. I personally can live with that. If you wish to fence, use a foil.
BTW, this has been debated far and long on HP boards...but I welcome some friendly discussion on it.
TrapperReady
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,732
It's funny that you bring up the equipment game aspect. When I was in the service, my issue M16A2 did not have a free-float tube. Nor did it have a Krieger SS barrel, or a very precise 2-stage trigger, or 1/4 moa sights. Heck, in the field my "sling" was frequently a length of 550# cord.
Disallowing the flattop on the basis of not wanting to turn it into an equipment race is specious at best.
I tend to agree with the concept of loosening the rule to lower the barriers to entry. The shooting sports need to become more inclusive if they want to stand any chance of not fading away. This can all be done without violating the intent of the SR class, since flattops ARE in widespread use by the military.
As far as the sights on detachable carry-handle weapons being sub-par... How long do you think it would take someone to come up with a competition-quality handle if it were legal? The best thing is that it would take about 20 seconds from opening the package, with NO gunsmithing. Other than that, the rifles are identical. Throwing folks into the space-gun category for that one difference is pretty lame, IMO.
Lastly... how can anyone seriously argue that someone shooting SR with an A2 upper is a "rifleman", while someone shooting MR with an A4 upper and a detachable carry handle is merely a "gamesman". That sounds like the kind of elitist crud I've seen far too much of in other sports. Frankly, I would rather see them disallow float tubes and micro-adjustable sights before the flattops.
I think they would be missing the boat if they continue to push flattop users into MR.
Disallowing the flattop on the basis of not wanting to turn it into an equipment race is specious at best.
I tend to agree with the concept of loosening the rule to lower the barriers to entry. The shooting sports need to become more inclusive if they want to stand any chance of not fading away. This can all be done without violating the intent of the SR class, since flattops ARE in widespread use by the military.
As far as the sights on detachable carry-handle weapons being sub-par... How long do you think it would take someone to come up with a competition-quality handle if it were legal? The best thing is that it would take about 20 seconds from opening the package, with NO gunsmithing. Other than that, the rifles are identical. Throwing folks into the space-gun category for that one difference is pretty lame, IMO.
Lastly... how can anyone seriously argue that someone shooting SR with an A2 upper is a "rifleman", while someone shooting MR with an A4 upper and a detachable carry handle is merely a "gamesman". That sounds like the kind of elitist crud I've seen far too much of in other sports. Frankly, I would rather see them disallow float tubes and micro-adjustable sights before the flattops.
I think they would be missing the boat if they continue to push flattop users into MR.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
If you think SR comp guns are really modified...
they pale in comparison to the mods that were done to 1903s, M1s, and M14s of the past. The M16s that you and I used in the military are so much closer to a match gun to start with, that a float tube, better barrel, and better trigger are small changes. 03's, Garands and M14s were all carefully bedded (the 03s were bedded by careful matching of the wood and by removing wood contact in front of the action, as much as possible), bolts were finely polished and trued to actions, triggers were rebuilt, and only the finest barrels were used. The gas guns of old had unitized gas systems, floating handguards, special op rods, front and rear lugging. BTW, round about '68 the targets changed from V targets to decimal targets, and a lot of the old guns coudn't keep up with the harder targets.
Do you see how much less is done to a modern AR than is done to an M14 or M1? ALL you need is a float tube, a good barrel, and a decent trigger on an AR. I will step out on a limb and say the better HP shooters could still shoot a Master score without the tube or trigger. That is it for mods. As far as slings go, I'm sure an M1 web sling was available to you, as it was me. That is a fine sling.
I would never argue that someone shooting an M4 was a gamesman. The gamesmen are the ones with Tubb 2000s or AR spaceguns. Your would obviously argue that an M4 does not belong with those guns, and in some ways you are right. I have always felt that the A4 shooter got the ____ end of the stick, but I am adverse to changing the SR rules for every new version of something that comes out. Aimpoints are becoming quite popular amongst the troops too, but I don't wish to see HP go down that path either.
May I ask you a question? What exactly do you think you are missing by having to shoot in MR? Do you think you at a disadvantage? If you are, it is very slight. Based upon scores and my personal experiences, I'd say that the MR (in full drag) has a 3% advantage on the course. It is hardly enough to quantify. Most MR shooters, from what I have seen, are from most common to least: Older gents who cannot see the close post front sight of the AR, folks with physical ailments that prevent the use of a straight stocked rifle, mediocre shooters that didn't like the "fuss" of learning to deal with a rifle as it is, and finally, folks who have little interest in tradition. I would say that You really don't have as much competition in MR as you do in SR. More often than not there are more SR guys near the top of the heap than there are MR guys...I don't know why, but the post front sight calls to the better shooters I think. You're not shorted shooting an A4 in MR competition until you get to the VERY top of the heap. The one thing you cannot do with an A4 is shoot CMP matches for Leg points. This, rather than having to compete with MR spaceguns, should be your major complaint, and is much more valid, IMHO.
The rules committees may be petitioned for rules changes. Their addresses are in the rule books. The flattop issue went up for vote a few years ago and was disapproved. They may be more open to a change now. Worth a try.
BTW, I'm truly sorry that you think that my "rifleman" comment is eletist. Maybe you only meant that in terms of the A4, and if so you now see that I'm more openminded than you might have first thought. If however, you feel I'm eletist because of the more general SR/MR differences, all I can say is start shooting Highpower. When you FEEL the link with the past, and you become PART of the great tradition, and then you see and hear MR shooters act like they could care less about the tradition of the game and say, "I'm only interested in shooting the bullet better" then you may feel the same way I do. If you got the most recent American Rifleman, you'll see pics of some of the old time Highpower shooters. I have a link with them that a spacegun shooter does not. There is a certain pride that is associated with shooting a military rifle and doing it as well as a guy with 30 adjustments on his spacegun.
One more thing. I'll be at matches all weekend and won't be able to respond until maybe Monday. I'll keep an eye out for stuff here today, though.
they pale in comparison to the mods that were done to 1903s, M1s, and M14s of the past. The M16s that you and I used in the military are so much closer to a match gun to start with, that a float tube, better barrel, and better trigger are small changes. 03's, Garands and M14s were all carefully bedded (the 03s were bedded by careful matching of the wood and by removing wood contact in front of the action, as much as possible), bolts were finely polished and trued to actions, triggers were rebuilt, and only the finest barrels were used. The gas guns of old had unitized gas systems, floating handguards, special op rods, front and rear lugging. BTW, round about '68 the targets changed from V targets to decimal targets, and a lot of the old guns coudn't keep up with the harder targets.
Do you see how much less is done to a modern AR than is done to an M14 or M1? ALL you need is a float tube, a good barrel, and a decent trigger on an AR. I will step out on a limb and say the better HP shooters could still shoot a Master score without the tube or trigger. That is it for mods. As far as slings go, I'm sure an M1 web sling was available to you, as it was me. That is a fine sling.
I would never argue that someone shooting an M4 was a gamesman. The gamesmen are the ones with Tubb 2000s or AR spaceguns. Your would obviously argue that an M4 does not belong with those guns, and in some ways you are right. I have always felt that the A4 shooter got the ____ end of the stick, but I am adverse to changing the SR rules for every new version of something that comes out. Aimpoints are becoming quite popular amongst the troops too, but I don't wish to see HP go down that path either.
May I ask you a question? What exactly do you think you are missing by having to shoot in MR? Do you think you at a disadvantage? If you are, it is very slight. Based upon scores and my personal experiences, I'd say that the MR (in full drag) has a 3% advantage on the course. It is hardly enough to quantify. Most MR shooters, from what I have seen, are from most common to least: Older gents who cannot see the close post front sight of the AR, folks with physical ailments that prevent the use of a straight stocked rifle, mediocre shooters that didn't like the "fuss" of learning to deal with a rifle as it is, and finally, folks who have little interest in tradition. I would say that You really don't have as much competition in MR as you do in SR. More often than not there are more SR guys near the top of the heap than there are MR guys...I don't know why, but the post front sight calls to the better shooters I think. You're not shorted shooting an A4 in MR competition until you get to the VERY top of the heap. The one thing you cannot do with an A4 is shoot CMP matches for Leg points. This, rather than having to compete with MR spaceguns, should be your major complaint, and is much more valid, IMHO.
The rules committees may be petitioned for rules changes. Their addresses are in the rule books. The flattop issue went up for vote a few years ago and was disapproved. They may be more open to a change now. Worth a try.
BTW, I'm truly sorry that you think that my "rifleman" comment is eletist. Maybe you only meant that in terms of the A4, and if so you now see that I'm more openminded than you might have first thought. If however, you feel I'm eletist because of the more general SR/MR differences, all I can say is start shooting Highpower. When you FEEL the link with the past, and you become PART of the great tradition, and then you see and hear MR shooters act like they could care less about the tradition of the game and say, "I'm only interested in shooting the bullet better" then you may feel the same way I do. If you got the most recent American Rifleman, you'll see pics of some of the old time Highpower shooters. I have a link with them that a spacegun shooter does not. There is a certain pride that is associated with shooting a military rifle and doing it as well as a guy with 30 adjustments on his spacegun.
One more thing. I'll be at matches all weekend and won't be able to respond until maybe Monday. I'll keep an eye out for stuff here today, though.
Last edited:
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
well let me put it into what my opinion is and it is shared by alot of folks.
as far as I'am concerned I really do not care what you shoot as it does not have any effect on what I shoot or how I do.
but if I have to follow the rules that are set down why not everybody else.
most all matches in the us allow exactly what you have and will let you shoot it with the exception of the national matches in the cmp week.
the only state matches that may turn you down are the eic matches and most all of them will let you shoot and compete against other rifle's like yours UNLESS you are keeping someone from shooting a service rifle that wishes to enter after the match as filled.
its like this you can not enter your truck in a nascar winston cup stock car race because your truck does not meet the rules.
you can not take you ar15 to a 50 cal. 1,000 yard match because it is not a 50 cal in the way you have it.
they do not allow a m249, minimi, m50, 1919a2, bar, thompson, and I could go on at our matches either.
as far as sportsman or gamesman I really do not care as if you beet me then thats great as I get stomped on , on a regular basis.
but if I decide to spend $1,500 or $900 on a match service rifle legal rifle and follow the rules why should I and another serveral thousand folks in the us just say hey you do not have to follow the rules and hey you can still shoot so why do you not just shoot and enjoy it instead of making everbody else conform to what you happen to of bought. its not our fault.
and that goes for all of the folks that cry about why can't I use my ar15 with that neat ak/muzzle brake thingy.
its against the rules and I will carry a air horn with me and everytime they shoot I will blast that in their ear and throw dirt and rocks at them because thats what it is like shooting next to one.
we have one a@#-h#$% around at a couple of our clubs that trys to get them to stop shooting matches because he thinks the rules should not have to apply to him.
get this he should have the right to use his scoped bolt rifle to compete because he knows he can win that way. NOTTTTTT.
I asked him to tell me how he plans on reloading in the rapids since he has a scope on it and it does not use strippers,
his response was thats a stupid rule that needs to be changed also.
we had one of those rocket scientist at one of our clinics a few weeks ago.
how lame can you be if we flat say it is a service rifle only clinic.
if you do not have a rifle that meets the rules we provide one for you and its the same price $45 and we also provide all the ammo for that price and hands on instruction.
he shows up with a ruger mini-14 all tricked out with a electronic scope and laser and a fancy stock and wants to shoot that,
well ok you can but the electronic stuff has to go but while he is asking we notice the laser pointing at wall and moving all around the room.
then it gets pointed at our director signing folks up. now get this the muzzle is about a foot from his head and he looks over and sees no chamber flag (obi) and grabs the barrel and moves it away from his head and then sees the bolt is closed with a mag in the rifle. he stands up reaches over and opens the bolt, out pops a live round out of the chamber with a fully loaded 20 round mag.
the point to all of the above is that you can shoot what ever you wish at the match that allows you to use what you wish and if you do not lik eit then just write the nra and have them change it because I do not want you to shoot next to me at a big match or have the same chance for any prizes because I followed the rules and you do not want to.
as far as I'am concerned I really do not care what you shoot as it does not have any effect on what I shoot or how I do.
but if I have to follow the rules that are set down why not everybody else.
most all matches in the us allow exactly what you have and will let you shoot it with the exception of the national matches in the cmp week.
the only state matches that may turn you down are the eic matches and most all of them will let you shoot and compete against other rifle's like yours UNLESS you are keeping someone from shooting a service rifle that wishes to enter after the match as filled.
its like this you can not enter your truck in a nascar winston cup stock car race because your truck does not meet the rules.
you can not take you ar15 to a 50 cal. 1,000 yard match because it is not a 50 cal in the way you have it.
they do not allow a m249, minimi, m50, 1919a2, bar, thompson, and I could go on at our matches either.
as far as sportsman or gamesman I really do not care as if you beet me then thats great as I get stomped on , on a regular basis.
but if I decide to spend $1,500 or $900 on a match service rifle legal rifle and follow the rules why should I and another serveral thousand folks in the us just say hey you do not have to follow the rules and hey you can still shoot so why do you not just shoot and enjoy it instead of making everbody else conform to what you happen to of bought. its not our fault.
and that goes for all of the folks that cry about why can't I use my ar15 with that neat ak/muzzle brake thingy.
its against the rules and I will carry a air horn with me and everytime they shoot I will blast that in their ear and throw dirt and rocks at them because thats what it is like shooting next to one.
we have one a@#-h#$% around at a couple of our clubs that trys to get them to stop shooting matches because he thinks the rules should not have to apply to him.
get this he should have the right to use his scoped bolt rifle to compete because he knows he can win that way. NOTTTTTT.I asked him to tell me how he plans on reloading in the rapids since he has a scope on it and it does not use strippers,
his response was thats a stupid rule that needs to be changed also.
we had one of those rocket scientist at one of our clinics a few weeks ago.
how lame can you be if we flat say it is a service rifle only clinic.
if you do not have a rifle that meets the rules we provide one for you and its the same price $45 and we also provide all the ammo for that price and hands on instruction.
he shows up with a ruger mini-14 all tricked out with a electronic scope and laser and a fancy stock and wants to shoot that,
well ok you can but the electronic stuff has to go but while he is asking we notice the laser pointing at wall and moving all around the room.
then it gets pointed at our director signing folks up. now get this the muzzle is about a foot from his head and he looks over and sees no chamber flag (obi) and grabs the barrel and moves it away from his head and then sees the bolt is closed with a mag in the rifle. he stands up reaches over and opens the bolt, out pops a live round out of the chamber with a fully loaded 20 round mag.
the point to all of the above is that you can shoot what ever you wish at the match that allows you to use what you wish and if you do not lik eit then just write the nra and have them change it because I do not want you to shoot next to me at a big match or have the same chance for any prizes because I followed the rules and you do not want to.
TrapperReady
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,732
jc121 - Your comments are all well and good. However, much of what you discuss is not even close to what I originally commented on.
BTW, I'm not at all adverse to getting an A2 upper. In fact, I plan to do so. The point is simply that the RULE is stated:
"The front and rear sights must be the standard design."
The INTERPRETATION of that rule is that A2 uppers are allowed, while an A4 with detachable carry handle is not. I am merely pointing out that a different yet entirely reasonable interpretation would allow for an A4 configuration. The A4 configuration affords no benefits over the A2 (for the purpose of SR competition), and could in no way bother or distract other shooters. End of story.
Someone using a scoped bolt action rifle, or most of the other stuff you bring up could not reasonably be construed as a service rifle. As far as the nimrod with the Mini-14 goes, I have no idea what you are trying to explain with that anecdote. Are you saying that anyone who uses a rifle which doesn't qualify as a service rifle is a dangerous idiot?
From a practical standpoint, it is largely a moot issue. Many of the smaller local matches will either allow the A4 or let you shoot in the MR category. Either way, you get to put rounds down range, which is all good.
And don't worry, I highly doubt I'll be shooting next to you anytime soon. If I do I'll be sure to bring some pepper spray in case you haul out that airhorn.
BTW, I'm not at all adverse to getting an A2 upper. In fact, I plan to do so. The point is simply that the RULE is stated:
"The front and rear sights must be the standard design."
The INTERPRETATION of that rule is that A2 uppers are allowed, while an A4 with detachable carry handle is not. I am merely pointing out that a different yet entirely reasonable interpretation would allow for an A4 configuration. The A4 configuration affords no benefits over the A2 (for the purpose of SR competition), and could in no way bother or distract other shooters. End of story.
Someone using a scoped bolt action rifle, or most of the other stuff you bring up could not reasonably be construed as a service rifle. As far as the nimrod with the Mini-14 goes, I have no idea what you are trying to explain with that anecdote. Are you saying that anyone who uses a rifle which doesn't qualify as a service rifle is a dangerous idiot?
From a practical standpoint, it is largely a moot issue. Many of the smaller local matches will either allow the A4 or let you shoot in the MR category. Either way, you get to put rounds down range, which is all good.
And don't worry, I highly doubt I'll be shooting next to you anytime soon. If I do I'll be sure to bring some pepper spray in case you haul out that airhorn.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
Who said anything about prizes?
I just want to be able to shoot what i have without people making me feel like dirt because i don't have a "proper" weapon.
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
don't get me wrong guys and just picking out certain parts of my conversation.
the who point is that I teach and help many new shooters ever year and run 1 match a month that we allow everything that is a center fire as long as it is safe and no scope and fits into the range rules for the club, no (50's or full auto's).
you bring it and you can shoot it.
its free and that includes all targets and most of the time a very nice lunch.
it is a standard 50 shot course and we even let you have a 1 hour sight in before the match and help you get your rifle sighted in.
while I do try to put the newer shooters on some of the later relays also so that they can see what is happening and I also try as best it can be done to pair everybody up with like rifles on that realy also.
like two relays might be all garands
one relay might be a combo of 03's and other bolts
and I have a relay that I put all of the rifles with those muzzle brakes together as there are uaually two or three guys with them.
whats funny is alot of times the person will come back and say please don't put me next to the guy with that next time and the other guy will say the same thing.
what you do not or might not realize about the air horn thing which by the way was just a joke is thats what shooting next to one is really like.
it blast my ears and you can feel the concussion of the blast and when we shoot on dirt it blows dirt and grit all over the guy next to you.
I like my rifles to be able to shoot and not have to spend $500 every few matches for a new barrel because someone else thinks he should have the right to shoot anything he wishes.
at the local matches I go to some times I will only sign up when either I know who is on my right or left or after everybody else is signed up so that I may see what they are shooting with.
I'am sorry if you guys think I'am wrong for not wanting to compete with rifles that do not follow the rules or have them next to me.
I go out for fun and its not fun to have a guy next to you blasting you with pressure waves,dirt, and those pieces of brass that hit you in the head on almost every shot.
now about the prizes. most every match I go to around here really does not give much of anything away if at all, and thats fine with me.
but at a few of the matches its a real fun thing when you get anyone of 3 to 5 guys that all shoot pretty equal and we go out to lunch or diner and you get the bragging rights at that meal.
also I shoot at state championships, regional championships and travel to other states to shoot their championships and attend camp perry for the nationals.
prizes yes prizes I want that trophy on my mantle or plaque on the wall and I do not bash you for not having those goals but why bash me for wanting to be that good and winningat that level.
I would really like to see someone say oh I don't want that national championship trophy because it does not mean anything to me. oh yeah!
the smaller one's no big deal as they will just go in the boxes with the rest of them in the basement.
flat tops I do hope they make them legal by the way as long as they are the clamp on carry handle type that makes the sight picture the same height and the exact same distance between the sights as it really does not matter to me and I do think it will be allowed into the service rifle area in a few years.
but untill then you need to follow the rules if you want to play the game with everybody else and keep calling and writting the nra if you want it changed.
because you guys are the one's that can get it done because 99% or more of the service rifle shooters are not going to make that call or write that letter and its not because we don't want you but it does not have anything to do with what I want to shoot.
the who point is that I teach and help many new shooters ever year and run 1 match a month that we allow everything that is a center fire as long as it is safe and no scope and fits into the range rules for the club, no (50's or full auto's).
you bring it and you can shoot it.
its free and that includes all targets and most of the time a very nice lunch.
it is a standard 50 shot course and we even let you have a 1 hour sight in before the match and help you get your rifle sighted in.
while I do try to put the newer shooters on some of the later relays also so that they can see what is happening and I also try as best it can be done to pair everybody up with like rifles on that realy also.
like two relays might be all garands
one relay might be a combo of 03's and other bolts
and I have a relay that I put all of the rifles with those muzzle brakes together as there are uaually two or three guys with them.
whats funny is alot of times the person will come back and say please don't put me next to the guy with that next time and the other guy will say the same thing.
what you do not or might not realize about the air horn thing which by the way was just a joke is thats what shooting next to one is really like.
it blast my ears and you can feel the concussion of the blast and when we shoot on dirt it blows dirt and grit all over the guy next to you.
I like my rifles to be able to shoot and not have to spend $500 every few matches for a new barrel because someone else thinks he should have the right to shoot anything he wishes.
at the local matches I go to some times I will only sign up when either I know who is on my right or left or after everybody else is signed up so that I may see what they are shooting with.
I'am sorry if you guys think I'am wrong for not wanting to compete with rifles that do not follow the rules or have them next to me.
I go out for fun and its not fun to have a guy next to you blasting you with pressure waves,dirt, and those pieces of brass that hit you in the head on almost every shot.
now about the prizes. most every match I go to around here really does not give much of anything away if at all, and thats fine with me.
but at a few of the matches its a real fun thing when you get anyone of 3 to 5 guys that all shoot pretty equal and we go out to lunch or diner and you get the bragging rights at that meal.
also I shoot at state championships, regional championships and travel to other states to shoot their championships and attend camp perry for the nationals.
prizes yes prizes I want that trophy on my mantle or plaque on the wall and I do not bash you for not having those goals but why bash me for wanting to be that good and winningat that level.
I would really like to see someone say oh I don't want that national championship trophy because it does not mean anything to me. oh yeah!
the smaller one's no big deal as they will just go in the boxes with the rest of them in the basement.
flat tops I do hope they make them legal by the way as long as they are the clamp on carry handle type that makes the sight picture the same height and the exact same distance between the sights as it really does not matter to me and I do think it will be allowed into the service rifle area in a few years.
but untill then you need to follow the rules if you want to play the game with everybody else and keep calling and writting the nra if you want it changed.
because you guys are the one's that can get it done because 99% or more of the service rifle shooters are not going to make that call or write that letter and its not because we don't want you but it does not have anything to do with what I want to shoot.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Back from the weekend
Ya'll try to keep this civil.
TR, you did not address anything from my last post...was there nothing to comment on?
JC's last paragraph says it all...if you want the rule changed, then call and write the NRA and CMP as much as possible. You're not going to get support from many current SR shooters because we're already there, so you should get your flat top shooting buddies to send letters too. Just try for 20" flat tops with no muzzle device, because a 16" is a waste for 600 yard shooting (and proposing it will get your letter trashed) and a muzzle brake is an annoyance like no other on the line, and will not be allowed, MR or SR. Also specify the exact type of detachable carry handle (specify a NSN part number and then say "or commercial equivalent") Also specify that the sight radius must be equal to that of the A2 design. It must be very specific or it will be voted out. The main reason is someone will no doubt but a whiz-bang rear sight on the gun and move it back for a better sight radius or something. Basically you should write the rule yourself, using the current rules as a template. Then suggest something LIKE that to the CMP and NRA. Don't want to come across as arrogant, but you want to save them some work.
One thing that having a detachable carry handle WOULD do, is make a gun easily convertable from X Course to NTIT configuations. If your carry handle attachment was VERY repeatable, you could have one rear sight with a 1/4x1/4 setup, and the other with 1x1/2 setup. Of course, who shoots their XC gun in NTIT? Not I!!!
Again, I welcome a CIVIL tete a tete here. Keep it coming.
Oh, a few more things...(sorry) An air horn and thrown rocks are appropriate medicine for muzzle brake shooters.
Also, I could care less about trophies. The look on that day's nemesis when he loses is worth more than all the trophies in the world to me.
Ya'll try to keep this civil.
TR, you did not address anything from my last post...was there nothing to comment on?
JC's last paragraph says it all...if you want the rule changed, then call and write the NRA and CMP as much as possible. You're not going to get support from many current SR shooters because we're already there, so you should get your flat top shooting buddies to send letters too. Just try for 20" flat tops with no muzzle device, because a 16" is a waste for 600 yard shooting (and proposing it will get your letter trashed) and a muzzle brake is an annoyance like no other on the line, and will not be allowed, MR or SR. Also specify the exact type of detachable carry handle (specify a NSN part number and then say "or commercial equivalent") Also specify that the sight radius must be equal to that of the A2 design. It must be very specific or it will be voted out. The main reason is someone will no doubt but a whiz-bang rear sight on the gun and move it back for a better sight radius or something. Basically you should write the rule yourself, using the current rules as a template. Then suggest something LIKE that to the CMP and NRA. Don't want to come across as arrogant, but you want to save them some work.
One thing that having a detachable carry handle WOULD do, is make a gun easily convertable from X Course to NTIT configuations. If your carry handle attachment was VERY repeatable, you could have one rear sight with a 1/4x1/4 setup, and the other with 1x1/2 setup. Of course, who shoots their XC gun in NTIT? Not I!!!
Again, I welcome a CIVIL tete a tete here. Keep it coming.
Oh, a few more things...(sorry) An air horn and thrown rocks are appropriate medicine for muzzle brake shooters.
Also, I could care less about trophies. The look on that day's nemesis when he loses is worth more than all the trophies in the world to me.
TrapperReady
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,732
Sorry Steve - I've not yet had time to properly reply to your post. I was going to, but then jc121's popped up, and that was a little more pressing.
No offense, but what is NTIT (I'm not fully up to speed on all the acronyms yet)? And, would that be a bad thing? Again, you broaden the range of people eligible to compete (at the time when the number of shooters is in decline). Even the guys shooting at your level might be able to get by with less equipment ($$$) and have more available for travel, training, etc...
With regards to your earlier post, I don't feel that I'm missing anything by shooting MR. I can shoot in any of the little local matches (the nearby CMP shoots are quite informal), so that's not a problem. If I compete at a higher level and do any of the larger state or regional shoots, then I'll make sure to have a legal upper beforehand.
Again, the genesis of my argument has to do with the way the rule is currently interpreted. If the rule is never changed, I don't much care, I just think that it could reasonably, logically and consistently be interpreted to allow for the A4 configuration. IMHO, I think that would be beneficial to a number of potential shooters.
I do want to make one thing perfectly clear. I have the utmost respect and appreciation for you and jc121. You have proven yourselves to be very willing to aid new shooters (myself obviously included) with advice, time and patience. I hope that we can disagree on this point and not engender any ill-will.
BTW, I do plan to send a letter to the NRA and the CMP.
jc121 - A couple comments specifically for you.
1) The pepper spray comment was merely a joke (in the same way as your air-horn and rocks comment). Maybe not a funny one, but the intent was nothing more.
2) I've never once suggested that you should have to compete against someone who's rifle didn't conform to the rules. What I've advocated is that the rules be reinterpreted to allow for the A4. Until such time as A4 configs are allows (if ever), you are absolutely correct that someone using a flattop is not and should not be able to compete for prizes.
3) Again, I'm talking specifically about the A4 config. Muzzle brakes, bolt guns and all that stuff are not part of the argument.
No offense, but what is NTIT (I'm not fully up to speed on all the acronyms yet)? And, would that be a bad thing? Again, you broaden the range of people eligible to compete (at the time when the number of shooters is in decline). Even the guys shooting at your level might be able to get by with less equipment ($$$) and have more available for travel, training, etc...
With regards to your earlier post, I don't feel that I'm missing anything by shooting MR. I can shoot in any of the little local matches (the nearby CMP shoots are quite informal), so that's not a problem. If I compete at a higher level and do any of the larger state or regional shoots, then I'll make sure to have a legal upper beforehand.
Again, the genesis of my argument has to do with the way the rule is currently interpreted. If the rule is never changed, I don't much care, I just think that it could reasonably, logically and consistently be interpreted to allow for the A4 configuration. IMHO, I think that would be beneficial to a number of potential shooters.
I do want to make one thing perfectly clear. I have the utmost respect and appreciation for you and jc121. You have proven yourselves to be very willing to aid new shooters (myself obviously included) with advice, time and patience. I hope that we can disagree on this point and not engender any ill-will.
BTW, I do plan to send a letter to the NRA and the CMP.
jc121 - A couple comments specifically for you.
1) The pepper spray comment was merely a joke (in the same way as your air-horn and rocks comment). Maybe not a funny one, but the intent was nothing more.
2) I've never once suggested that you should have to compete against someone who's rifle didn't conform to the rules. What I've advocated is that the rules be reinterpreted to allow for the A4. Until such time as A4 configs are allows (if ever), you are absolutely correct that someone using a flattop is not and should not be able to compete for prizes.
3) Again, I'm talking specifically about the A4 config. Muzzle brakes, bolt guns and all that stuff are not part of the argument.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
I agree that we can disagree and still be amiable to each other. That is what a large part of the HP community has done for several years on this subject.
Your points suggesting that the inclusion of the A4 would broaden the range of shooters is of course logical, but you may be suprised that HP and SR specifically is growing rather than shrinking in popularity. It seems that shooters who want to shoot SR will suck it up and shoot a fixed carry handle rifle. I think this is one of the reasons that the rules committees have not ammended the rules. The other is just because of the modularity of the flat top. I think they are (rightly so) afraid of having to herd cats with that upper.
I hope that Jon and I will both have the pleasure to shoot with you soon.
Getting back to that air horn and rocks bit...I absolutely HATE inconsiderate and rude people. If your rifle is not potty trained to throw your brass behind or ahead of the shooter to the right, FIX IT. Adjust the ejector spring until it DOES eject your brass away from the next shooter. Two weeks ago I shot at a match where a Distinguished shooter was on my left. Her brass continually hit me on or about the face, and one somehow went between my rear sight and my face during sitting rapids. I finished early (99 ?x) and began flinging her brass back at her over my shoulder as she finished firing. She threw it at me, I'll throw it back with force. I think she got the point after I did that twice and beat her scores, and then made some loud comment in the direction of the pits about rude people and potty trained rifles. At prone she put her shooting cart in the way.
Sorry for the soapbox rant, but being polite to your fellow shooters is part of this game.
NTIT: National Trophy Infantry Team aka Rattle Battle. First stage is 30 shots from 600 yards in 50 seconds. Second is the same from 500 yards, and third is four shots from 400 yards. If shooters cannot do that they continue to have 50 seconds up to the 200 yard line. Basically, its a 6 man team firing on 8 silhouette targets, and the team has 384 rounds to fire. The more hits you get from 600 and 500 the higher your score.
Your points suggesting that the inclusion of the A4 would broaden the range of shooters is of course logical, but you may be suprised that HP and SR specifically is growing rather than shrinking in popularity. It seems that shooters who want to shoot SR will suck it up and shoot a fixed carry handle rifle. I think this is one of the reasons that the rules committees have not ammended the rules. The other is just because of the modularity of the flat top. I think they are (rightly so) afraid of having to herd cats with that upper.
I hope that Jon and I will both have the pleasure to shoot with you soon.
Getting back to that air horn and rocks bit...I absolutely HATE inconsiderate and rude people. If your rifle is not potty trained to throw your brass behind or ahead of the shooter to the right, FIX IT. Adjust the ejector spring until it DOES eject your brass away from the next shooter. Two weeks ago I shot at a match where a Distinguished shooter was on my left. Her brass continually hit me on or about the face, and one somehow went between my rear sight and my face during sitting rapids. I finished early (99 ?x) and began flinging her brass back at her over my shoulder as she finished firing. She threw it at me, I'll throw it back with force. I think she got the point after I did that twice and beat her scores, and then made some loud comment in the direction of the pits about rude people and potty trained rifles. At prone she put her shooting cart in the way.
Sorry for the soapbox rant, but being polite to your fellow shooters is part of this game.
NTIT: National Trophy Infantry Team aka Rattle Battle. First stage is 30 shots from 600 yards in 50 seconds. Second is the same from 500 yards, and third is four shots from 400 yards. If shooters cannot do that they continue to have 50 seconds up to the 200 yard line. Basically, its a 6 man team firing on 8 silhouette targets, and the team has 384 rounds to fire. The more hits you get from 600 and 500 the higher your score.
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TrapperReady
Member
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2003
- Messages
- 2,732
Around these parts, the numbers don't appear to be very encouraging. Just a WAG from observations at a number of matches around here, but the median age of shooter looks to be pretty high. I qualify as one of the younger shooters, and I'm a lot closer to 40 than I'd like to admit.
I've noticed that there are quite a few Vietnam vets on the line. If that is common, I wonder if the increasing numbers might be due to the demographic bulge caused by baby boomers. Typically, you look at the number of new younger participants to gauge the health of a sport (cycling is a good example). If that's the case, at least around here, things are kind of grim.
Maybe (hopefully) things look better on a national level. That would be great.
Ditto on the inconsiderate shooters. I don't much care for having brass (or shotshells) flung onto me whether it's a HP event or on the trap line. Personally, I wouldn't have flung brass back at her, but I would have said something after the stage was finished. A polite comment can get the same message across, without giving her a "Can you believe what this guy did?" story to tell HER friends.
I've noticed that there are quite a few Vietnam vets on the line. If that is common, I wonder if the increasing numbers might be due to the demographic bulge caused by baby boomers. Typically, you look at the number of new younger participants to gauge the health of a sport (cycling is a good example). If that's the case, at least around here, things are kind of grim.
Maybe (hopefully) things look better on a national level. That would be great.
Ditto on the inconsiderate shooters. I don't much care for having brass (or shotshells) flung onto me whether it's a HP event or on the trap line. Personally, I wouldn't have flung brass back at her, but I would have said something after the stage was finished. A polite comment can get the same message across, without giving her a "Can you believe what this guy did?" story to tell HER friends.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Newbies get a polite lesson about rifle potty training. A Distinguished Rifleman should know better.
National level junior participation is very encouraging. I'm looking up some numbers now.
A quick look showed that there were 117 2-man junior teams at the 2002 Nationals. I don't have numbers from past years but I understand that this is growing. There are about 40 junior shooters in Colorado alone. Most HP programs press a junior program hard. We really try our best to get kids involved. Perhaps you could get something started in your area?
BTW, wanna see some hard scores from KIDS?
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/National_Matches/Bulletins 2002/hpwb2002.pdf
National level junior participation is very encouraging. I'm looking up some numbers now.
A quick look showed that there were 117 2-man junior teams at the 2002 Nationals. I don't have numbers from past years but I understand that this is growing. There are about 40 junior shooters in Colorado alone. Most HP programs press a junior program hard. We really try our best to get kids involved. Perhaps you could get something started in your area?
BTW, wanna see some hard scores from KIDS?
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/National_Matches/Bulletins 2002/hpwb2002.pdf
Jon Coppenbarger
Member
rattle battle practice is fun and you have to work together to get god results.
in rattle battle we are about 3 feet between each shooter and you do not have any time to do anything else if you plan on getting a high hit count on your target at 600 yards,
try it a man size torso with head (and its a skinny dude also).
you want as many hits on the target with in 50 seconds.
steve and I get off 30 shots with time to spare and a good hit count.
I had one on sunday that I finished with 29 hits out of 30 shots in right under 45 seconds and the hits were in a space of 12"long by 8" wide in 50 seconds. now I'am trying to figure a reliable way to get 32 rounds in the mag as I would never have to shoot a shot at 300 if I could do two groups of 32 for my 64.
that is the ntit match as steve discribed.
we worked on making sure everybody's rifle does what it should as when we practice things like steve shoots about a foot furtur back so the brass hits me in the back or goes over me and I do the same for the other guy on my right .
the name of the game is we are a team and we shoot as a team .
it is a game that to do great at you have to do everything just so and be ready to shoot and obey all comands.
we will be ready and its great fun.
in rattle battle we are about 3 feet between each shooter and you do not have any time to do anything else if you plan on getting a high hit count on your target at 600 yards,
try it a man size torso with head (and its a skinny dude also).
you want as many hits on the target with in 50 seconds.
steve and I get off 30 shots with time to spare and a good hit count.
I had one on sunday that I finished with 29 hits out of 30 shots in right under 45 seconds and the hits were in a space of 12"long by 8" wide in 50 seconds. now I'am trying to figure a reliable way to get 32 rounds in the mag as I would never have to shoot a shot at 300 if I could do two groups of 32 for my 64.
that is the ntit match as steve discribed.
we worked on making sure everybody's rifle does what it should as when we practice things like steve shoots about a foot furtur back so the brass hits me in the back or goes over me and I do the same for the other guy on my right .
the name of the game is we are a team and we shoot as a team .
it is a game that to do great at you have to do everything just so and be ready to shoot and obey all comands.
we will be ready and its great fun.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
I sincerely hope this is not prevalent at local highpower matches, as 1. cali m-1a's HAVE to have muzzle brakes, and 2. such behavior would cause words to be exchanged (or worse).
I find it appalling that shooters would treat each other that way.
Imho, part of being an armed citizen is being a gentlemen. taking her aside after the string of fire and informing her of the brass problem is probably more effective than being a jerk about it and throwing things and making snide comments.
Steve Smith
Moderator Emeritus
Andrew, you are welcome to your opinion, but mine is that a very experienced Highpower shooter should know better, and when that person does it, it is offensive and intentional.
CA muzzle brakes are allowed by NRA and CMP rules. They are not allowed in the rest of the country, unless you are visiting from CA and using your own rifle. In an informal match, the guy with the muzzle brake gets sent to the end of the line, with lots of room between him and everyone else.
I am a gentleman but part of being a gentleman is not putting up with rude people. Treat me as you wish to be treated. I assure you that you will never complain about me at a match.
Afterthoughts:
See, the thing, is, Andrew, many of us take this pretty darn seriously. I don't think I've had a weekend without a match or practice since late March, and this will continue through August. some folks would say I/we are "too serious". Competitive sports are not always "fun." The fun comes at the end of the day and from the comraderie of it all. Good Highpower competitors display EXCELLENT manners to one another, and EXPECT the same. At least I do. Newbies get a pass, and just a mention...but an experienced shooter that has not learned to be considerate of the next man on the line? He should be ashamed of himself. I'll give his brass back to him, at high velocity.
Here's another one (this point is drifting, but did it ever really have a direction? Anyway....same day, same Distinguished "lady" age of 40+ I am sure. Old enough and experienced to know better. Range rules state that all brass, regardless of caliber shall be policed. She has shot there many times. Highpower etiquette is that you pick your brass up from other firing points after firing is complete (should be behind the shooter on your right). You shouldn't have to make that guy pick up your brass. Anyway, we had just finished shooting rapid prone, where all 20 of her shots had hit me on my side or back, minus a few that had hit me on the head. They were all on the left side of me and my mat. I got up and moved my gear off the line as I'm supposed to do. She took forever and never moved for her brass. My shooter (I would be scoring now) started to pick up her brass for her and I stopped him and suggested he do something else to get ready. I called her name and said, "Your brass is here." She answered that she did not want it. I said, "Range rules state that all brass is to be policed, and I would appreciate it if you'd remove it from my firing point so that neither me nor my shooter will confuse your brass with ours." She rolled her eyes but did it. It is all about respect for your fellow shooter. Maybe she learned something. Somehow I doubt it.
I think you guys knowfrom the work I put in to getting you folks into this without spending a ton or going down the wrong path and from me volunteering my time to run pits or coach clinics that I have a tremendous love for the sport and shooters in general. I just do not appreciate inconsiderate people at all.
One more edit: The braked gun Jon posts about in the next post was just something I pulled out to try...I was not in a competition!!!
CA muzzle brakes are allowed by NRA and CMP rules. They are not allowed in the rest of the country, unless you are visiting from CA and using your own rifle. In an informal match, the guy with the muzzle brake gets sent to the end of the line, with lots of room between him and everyone else.
I am a gentleman but part of being a gentleman is not putting up with rude people. Treat me as you wish to be treated. I assure you that you will never complain about me at a match.
Afterthoughts:
See, the thing, is, Andrew, many of us take this pretty darn seriously. I don't think I've had a weekend without a match or practice since late March, and this will continue through August. some folks would say I/we are "too serious". Competitive sports are not always "fun." The fun comes at the end of the day and from the comraderie of it all. Good Highpower competitors display EXCELLENT manners to one another, and EXPECT the same. At least I do. Newbies get a pass, and just a mention...but an experienced shooter that has not learned to be considerate of the next man on the line? He should be ashamed of himself. I'll give his brass back to him, at high velocity.
Here's another one (this point is drifting, but did it ever really have a direction? Anyway....same day, same Distinguished "lady" age of 40+ I am sure. Old enough and experienced to know better. Range rules state that all brass, regardless of caliber shall be policed. She has shot there many times. Highpower etiquette is that you pick your brass up from other firing points after firing is complete (should be behind the shooter on your right). You shouldn't have to make that guy pick up your brass. Anyway, we had just finished shooting rapid prone, where all 20 of her shots had hit me on my side or back, minus a few that had hit me on the head. They were all on the left side of me and my mat. I got up and moved my gear off the line as I'm supposed to do. She took forever and never moved for her brass. My shooter (I would be scoring now) started to pick up her brass for her and I stopped him and suggested he do something else to get ready. I called her name and said, "Your brass is here." She answered that she did not want it. I said, "Range rules state that all brass is to be policed, and I would appreciate it if you'd remove it from my firing point so that neither me nor my shooter will confuse your brass with ours." She rolled her eyes but did it. It is all about respect for your fellow shooter. Maybe she learned something. Somehow I doubt it.
I think you guys knowfrom the work I put in to getting you folks into this without spending a ton or going down the wrong path and from me volunteering my time to run pits or coach clinics that I have a tremendous love for the sport and shooters in general. I just do not appreciate inconsiderate people at all.
One more edit: The braked gun Jon posts about in the next post was just something I pulled out to try...I was not in a competition!!!
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Jon Coppenbarger
Member
first off the muzzle brake on those ca. m1a's made by springfield are not like the one's we talk about and you should know that .
the brakes we are talking about are the one's that are directional and throw the blast sideways on a ar15 that does not need it.
steve and I were doing some night firing on friday at 600 yards and making good clean hits.
the ar15 with no type of anything hanging on the end of the barrel had hardly no blast but the ak type directional brake on one ar15 steve had man it was like lighting up the night.
sorry about it if you still live in ca.
I lived out there till about 6 years ago and finally left and moved to co.
its fun to be able to walk into any gun shop or pawn shop or gun show and legally walk out with a rifle or pistol.
we get to have class 3 weapons and the concealed carry permit is easier than the regular firearms application.
I owned a gun shop in south sac. from 1985 till around 1990.
now about us being gentilemen or polite, we are very polite.
we help teach and give our time freely to juniors and new shooters and go ou tof our way to help promote the sport.
sunday we helped two new shooters all day and the week before I ran the pits for 44 new shooters by myself. that was a one time deal but we made it go very smoothly.
we also like to be respected by others also.
we do not ever mess with others equipment like I had done to me on friday.
we always pick up our brass when we get done with the relay
we always are the first to get our equipment off the fireing point so the next shooter can get his equipment in place
we always treat every other competitor like we would want to be treated.
the folks that steve was talking about have shot for many , many more years than he has and it is not his fault for wanting to be treated the same.
its like the brass hitting him and then she put her stool in the place 90% of all of the shooters put it.
I open mine up during prone stages and most all of my brass just goes into the bag. saves time and helps keep them from being mixed up with others.
we also do not want your brass, sorry I spend hours apon hours prepping my brass and really would like yours picked up when you are done.
is that to much to ask that I do not have to sort threw all the brass and take the risk that yours is in with mine.
we have a few folks that say hey I don't want it as its free or been shot to much for him, well why do they think I would want it ?
everything we have talked about is common and should be done without us having to ask.
why don't you guys that thing its wrong just go to the nra web page and read the part on being a good shooter and how to act on the firing line.
I'am very sorry if I feel at a state championship I should not have to put up with people that do not care enough to either follow the rules or only care about themselfs
the brakes we are talking about are the one's that are directional and throw the blast sideways on a ar15 that does not need it.
steve and I were doing some night firing on friday at 600 yards and making good clean hits.
the ar15 with no type of anything hanging on the end of the barrel had hardly no blast but the ak type directional brake on one ar15 steve had man it was like lighting up the night.
sorry about it if you still live in ca.
I lived out there till about 6 years ago and finally left and moved to co.
its fun to be able to walk into any gun shop or pawn shop or gun show and legally walk out with a rifle or pistol.
we get to have class 3 weapons and the concealed carry permit is easier than the regular firearms application.
I owned a gun shop in south sac. from 1985 till around 1990.
now about us being gentilemen or polite, we are very polite.
we help teach and give our time freely to juniors and new shooters and go ou tof our way to help promote the sport.
sunday we helped two new shooters all day and the week before I ran the pits for 44 new shooters by myself. that was a one time deal but we made it go very smoothly.
we also like to be respected by others also.
we do not ever mess with others equipment like I had done to me on friday.
we always pick up our brass when we get done with the relay
we always are the first to get our equipment off the fireing point so the next shooter can get his equipment in place
we always treat every other competitor like we would want to be treated.
the folks that steve was talking about have shot for many , many more years than he has and it is not his fault for wanting to be treated the same.
its like the brass hitting him and then she put her stool in the place 90% of all of the shooters put it.
I open mine up during prone stages and most all of my brass just goes into the bag. saves time and helps keep them from being mixed up with others.
we also do not want your brass, sorry I spend hours apon hours prepping my brass and really would like yours picked up when you are done.
is that to much to ask that I do not have to sort threw all the brass and take the risk that yours is in with mine.
we have a few folks that say hey I don't want it as its free or been shot to much for him, well why do they think I would want it ?
everything we have talked about is common and should be done without us having to ask.
why don't you guys that thing its wrong just go to the nra web page and read the part on being a good shooter and how to act on the firing line.
I'am very sorry if I feel at a state championship I should not have to put up with people that do not care enough to either follow the rules or only care about themselfs
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