Obliterating Import Markings

[Ash]

No, I don't want to file off serial numbers.

But, what I was thinking about doing was applying a polycoat to my PSL to make it more weather resistant. I can mask-off the serial number to avoid filling in the dot-matrix, but don't want to mask-off the side of the receiver with the import marks. However, that dot-matrix looks like it could easily be filled in and disappear. I know it would still be there, but it would be obscured at the very least.

How does the law read on covering up import marks (not serial numbers)?

Well, a conversation with the ATF resulted in an answer. The Importer mark is just as sacred as the serial number. So, no refinish unless the marks show through the polycoat.

Ash

 

[Chipperman]

Did you ask for a letter?

A conversation with ATF means nothing legally.

They have been known to give varying opinions on the phone when asked about things. Written letters are usually more consistent, until they change their minds again.

 

[Car Knocker]

A verbal opinion isn't worth the paper it's written on!

 

[Cosmoline]

The Importer mark is just as sacred as the serial number.

Did whoever you spoke with actually give you a citation for that? Did they distinguish between those marks which essentially create a new SN and those which simply say "CAI VA" or somesuch? You have to nail these guys down. I ditto the letter suggestion.

 

[Ash]

Even the letter is not worth the paper it's printed on (remember the stocks designed to facilitate bump firing).

I did nail him down on the mark being on the barrel versus serial number on frame/receiver. I also asked about the SIG P-6's with the terrible PW Arms marks on the frame. Refinishing is fine as long as it does not obscure the mark.

What I gathered from the conversation was that it safest to ensure all ATF mandated marks remain fully legible.

Ash

 

[cracked butt]

Why would the import marks matter to anyone but the importer (or possibly a collector)?

Most rifles imported up until a few years ago were marked on their barrels, I'm guessing that a few of these have been rebarreled or sporterized.

 

[USSR]

So, you can't rebarrel an import marked rifle with a non-import marked barrel? Ah, I don't think so.

Don

 

[PTK]

Most of my guns have the marks on the barrel (imports, that is), which were promptly removed. Any marks on the receiver, however, I leave alone.

 

[Ash]

Again, I'm not defending the whole deal. If I have a shot-out Nagant revolver from the good old 5 for $200 days, barrel stamped, and I replace it with an unstamped barrel, I can't imagine it would be illegal.

However, he specifically said the serial number would be meaningless without an importer's mark (and so, a place to go back to for info).

Ash

 

[PTK]

good old 5 for $200 days

They're still that cheap if you look around. Two of mine are being threaded for silencers, two I'm making into carbines, and the other six are being left as-is.

However, he specifically said the serial number would be meaningless without an importer's mark (and so, a place to go back to for info).

Er, entirely wrong. Enter the serial number, caliber, and you get a VERY small list of where it could've come from. Of course, the government doesn't keep lists like that, right?

 

[Chipperman]

Of course, the government doesn't keep lists like that, right?

Nope. That would be Unconstitutional.

 

[Ash]

I suppose that is the problem. Without marks, there would be no way to go back to determine who sold the rifle, and so follow a trail. In the end, that might be exactly the importance. Of course, it may all be in the guy's head. Who knows. I could get a letter, but even it is pretty irrelevent save perhaps to keep from going to prison.

Ash

 

[PTK]

You'd already have to be in seriously hot water for the BATFE to care if you have import markings on your guns.

 

[Ash]

Very true. At that point, you are facing that whole "let's see what we can tack on" situation.

Ash

 

[PTK]

Yes indeed. As far as I know (and the last time I saw this was 2006) there is a electronic database of firearms. Type in the serial number, it shows ALL firearms with that number. Select the caliber, and you should have only one firearm left. Failing that, there are other categories to help pin it down.

 

[cracked butt]

I think the right question to ask is if its legal to remove a serial number on a gun made before 1968, as most milsurps were made before then and serial numbers weren't a requirement on 'newly manufactured' firearms until 1968- though I wonder if imports are treated different. You could even take this one step further and ask the same question for guns that were made before 1898 which aren't treated as 'firearms' by federal law.

 

[Ash]

But currently imported firearms either have a unique serial number attached or use the serial number stamped. Most of my Mosins have the century import on the barrel and so the serial number on the barrel, even if made in 1919, cannot be removed as they are recorded at the importer's office.

This is more important on currently imported firearms where the importer actually applies the new serial number. The number on the barrel is irrelevant. Interestingly enough, this almost certainly has caused a tremendous number of recording errors as FFL's log in the original serial number while ignoring the dot-matrix number above the dot-matrix import marks. Said original number may not be recorded at the importer (though, it may be recorded for cross-reference - if that is the case, then applying the second number would be needless).

Ash

 

[DMK]

Most of my Mosins have the century import on the barrel and so the serial number on the barrel..

Are you sure the serial number is on the barrel? I have a bunch of Mosins from various importers. All the importer added serial numbers are on the receiver.

Interestingly enough, this almost certainly has caused a tremendous number of recording errors as FFL's log in the original serial number while ignoring the dot-matrix number above the dot-matrix import marks.

I record both numbers in my bound book, just to be sure. I've seen both written on the hang tags too.

I don't know why the ATF required importers to add their own serial numbers. Maybe they found duplicates, or maybe they just don't like the cyrilic characters. It's actually a fairly recent thing, starting maybe 4 years ago.

 

[Ash]

Yeah, most of mine have just the original serial number. I do have a few that have the stamped serial number on one side or the other (and guys sold them proud that the barrel and receiver matched when all that mattered was the bolt and barrel).

Ash

 

[cracked butt]

Maybe they found duplicates, or maybe they just don't like the cyrilic characters. It's actually a fairly recent thing, starting maybe 4 years ago.

Yep, yep, and yep.

Century has taken the position that they reserial everything they import now- one of the reasons why I no longer buy anything from them unless its strictly a shooter (such as k-31s). Other importers still stamp the barrels with their import markings- they can gety away with it because they are importing more obscure milsurps rather than the dime-a-dozen mosins that Century mainly deals with. The serial number added by the importer is the serial number that is supposed to be used, not the original.


FWIW, I don't ever see rifles with receivers that have been renumbered and stamped with the century 'billboard' ever gaining much in value.
For example, the Mauser 94 carbines that were imported in the 1950s that have had the receivers defaced by the importer with the 'G33/50' marking are worth a fraction of what the unmolested carbines are worth today.